King Coal / Tolsia Highway (US 52)

[Bitmapped]

Not only is WVDOH building this as two lanes instead of four, they're also not building a climbing lane despite a steep uphill going up the mountain on both the CR 10 access road and the mainline. That says a lot about the expected traffic counts.

Hmm. I was under the impression that WVDOT was going to request another US 52 Bus. for the old road when this segment was done. I suppose that won't be the case.

If they don't expect high traffic volumes, they could instead sign the thing as a 3-digit WV State Route (WV 252 352 or WV 520 come to mind) and keep the US Route on the old route.

West Virginia doesn't currently have any US business routes. Business routes in general aren't WVDOH's thing - the only one currently is ALT WV 34 in Putnam County that has a stray business shield or two.

There's nothing to speak of on the old route to justify it having a WV route number or even a prominently signed county route number either like CR 21. The part west of WV 44 has already been downgraded to CR 252/xx in WVDOH records.

[Dirt Roads]

West Virginia doesn't currently have any US business routes. Business routes in general aren't WVDOH's thing - the only one currently is ALT WV 34 in Putnam County that has a stray business shield or two.

And to that end, Alt WV-34 in Hurricane is a business route of US-60 and not WV-34 (but it does serve as a spur off of WV-34 for southbound traffic).  Main Street was the original routing of the US-60, and as far as I can tell, WV-34 coming up into Hurricane is the only road named "Midland Trail" in West Virginia that is no longer associated with US-60.

[Mapmikey]

Not only is WVDOH building this as two lanes instead of four, they're also not building a climbing lane despite a steep uphill going up the mountain on both the CR 10 access road and the mainline. That says a lot about the expected traffic counts.

Hmm. I was under the impression that WVDOT was going to request another US 52 Bus. for the old road when this segment was done. I suppose that won't be the case.

If they don't expect high traffic volumes, they could instead sign the thing as a 3-digit WV State Route (WV 252 352 or WV 520 come to mind) and keep the US Route on the old route.

West Virginia doesn't currently have any US business routes. Business routes in general aren't WVDOH's thing - the only one currently is ALT WV 34 in Putnam County that has a stray business shield.

US 52 Business in Bluefield is coming at some point when US 52 replaces WV 108 and follows WV 123 back to US 52.

[The_Ginger]

US 52 Business in Bluefield is coming at some point when US 52 replaces WV 108 and follows WV 123 back to US 52.

I suspect that won't happen until the next segment is finished to WV 20.

[Beltway]

What about US-460 when the relocated section US-23 to Grundy is complete? The old highway becomes BUS US-460?

[Mapmikey]

What about US-460 when the relocated section US-23 to Grundy is complete? The old highway becomes BUS US-460?

Will become US 460 ALT.  Kentucky has already changed the signage on their side...

[Rothman]

What about US-460 when the relocated section US-23 to Grundy is complete? The old highway becomes BUS US-460?

Will become US 460 ALT.  Kentucky has already changed the signage on their side...

Meh.  Why not continue the practice of assigning some random three- or four-digit state route number?

[Mapmikey]

What about US-460 when the relocated section US-23 to Grundy is complete? The old highway becomes BUS US-460?

Will become US 460 ALT.  Kentucky has already changed the signage on their side...

Meh.  Why not continue the practice of assigning some random three- or four-digit state route number?

This is consistent with what Virginia has asked for in the past when a US route was rerouted substantially.  The rejected US 360 ALT (now VA 360) is an example.

The brand new US 311 ALT is also an example, though I think it is silly in that instance.

[Beltway]

What about US-460 when the relocated section US-23 to Grundy is complete? The old highway becomes BUS US-460?

Will become US 460 ALT.  Kentucky has already changed the signage on their side...

Without there being a US-460 signed on the new highway?

[The_Ginger]

What about US-460 when the relocated section US-23 to Grundy is complete? The old highway becomes BUS US-460?

Will become US 460 ALT.  Kentucky has already changed the signage on their side...

Meh.  Why not continue the practice of assigning some random three- or four-digit state route number?

This is consistent with what Virginia has asked for in the past when a US route was rerouted substantially.  The rejected US 360 ALT (now VA 360) is an example.

The brand new US 311 ALT is also an example, though I think it is silly in that instance.

If other states are doing it, I see no harm in a US 52 Alt. along the old route after this segment is complete. WVDOT has done a similar thing in the past.

[Dirt Roads]

If other states are doing it, I see no harm in a US 52 Alt. along the old route after this segment is complete. WVDOT has done a similar thing in the past.

That was generations ago, back in the days of the ole' State Road Commission.  In many cases, county commissioners would call the Governor's office and demand that the "main road" stay posted through their hometowns so that the local "fillin' station" wouldn't shut down and force them to drive another 10 miles to get gas.  (Which they might not have been able to afford much, bein's that the old klunkers were getting about 12 MPG).

[Mapmikey]

What about US-460 when the relocated section US-23 to Grundy is complete? The old highway becomes BUS US-460?

Will become US 460 ALT.  Kentucky has already changed the signage on their side...

Without there being a US-460 signed on the new highway?

It's signed as US 460 on the Kentucky side.  There are signs directing travelers how to get to US 460 Grundy if you're heading eastbound to the current end of VA 460.  Don't know if there's anything posted on WB 460 leaving Grundy to get you to VA 460.

I suspect that won't happen until the next segment is finished to WV 20

AASHTO application clearly indicates just out to WV 123.  Oddly, I didn't notice until now that the south end of US 52 Business will be US 460, at least according to the application.

[Rothman]

What about US-460 when the relocated section US-23 to Grundy is complete? The old highway becomes BUS US-460?

Will become US 460 ALT.  Kentucky has already changed the signage on their side...

Meh.  Why not continue the practice of assigning some random three- or four-digit state route number?

This is consistent with what Virginia has asked for in the past when a US route was rerouted substantially.  The rejected US 360 ALT (now VA 360) is an example.

The brand new US 311 ALT is also an example, though I think it is silly in that instance.

We were talking about the KY side, too...

[Dirt Roads]

I suspect that won't happen until the next segment is finished to WV 20

AASHTO application clearly indicates just out to WV 123.  Oddly, I didn't notice until now that the south end of US 52 Business will be US 460, at least according to the application.

I didn't read the AASTHO request, so I should probably stay quiet here.  But the "south end" remains as US-52 (the former WV-290).  Obviously, the portion of US-52 that is multiplexed onto Corridor Q will remain as US-460. 

south end of US 52 Business will be US 460...

So even though this statement is not technically correct, it is geographically correct as that section of Corridor Q is situated further southwest than the remaining segment of US-52 that is on East Cumberland Road (now John Nash Boulevard) that heads over and picks up the East River Mountain Tunnel. 

This also means that the multiplex of US-52 with US-19 right in front of Bluefield State (now) University now comes to a close.

[Bitmapped]

If other states are doing it, I see no harm in a US 52 Alt. along the old route after this segment is complete. WVDOT has done a similar thing in the past.

That was generations ago, back in the days of the ole' State Road Commission.  In many cases, county commissioners would call the Governor's office and demand that the "main road" stay posted through their hometowns so that the local "fillin' station" wouldn't shut down and force them to drive another 10 miles to get gas.  (Which they might not have been able to afford much, bein's that the old klunkers were getting about 12 MPG).

US 52 ALT in Welch is effectively a business route. There mainline US 52 is a bypass. US 52 ALT provides access to downtown Welch.

There is no reason for traffic to take the current US 52 alignment over Horsepen Mountain once the new route opens. It is a terrible, twisty route that traffic should be discouraged from using. Unless someone is going to one of the houses or very small businesses along the route, they should not use that road.

[The_Ginger]

There is no reason for traffic to take the current US 52 alignment over Horsepen Mountain once the new route opens. It is a terrible, twisty route that traffic should be discouraged from using. Unless someone is going to one of the houses or very small businesses along the route, they should not use that road.

I just checked Street View in that area...



...That doesn't need to be any sort of posted route at all.

[Bitmapped]

There is no reason for traffic to take the current US 52 alignment over Horsepen Mountain once the new route opens. It is a terrible, twisty route that traffic should be discouraged from using. Unless someone is going to one of the houses or very small businesses along the route, they should not use that road.

I just checked Street View in that area...



...That doesn't need to be any sort of posted route at all.

Yes, that's what I've been saying.

[Dirt Roads]

US 52 ALT in Welch is effectively a business route. There mainline US 52 is a bypass. US 52 ALT provides access to downtown Welch.

The only time I've ever been into Welch, I was so fascinated with these alternate routes and the crazy so-called one-way pairs in downtown Welch that I doubled back several times to make sure that picked up Alt US-52 and the former route of Alt WV-16.  It's all the only time that I've ever doubled back just to see something (which also qualifies me as an old-fashioned Roadgeek).

[Beltway]

What about US-460 when the relocated section US-23 to Grundy is complete? The old highway becomes BUS US-460?

Will become US 460 ALT.  Kentucky has already changed the signage on their side...

Without there being a US-460 signed on the new highway?

It's signed as US 460 on the Kentucky side.  There are signs directing travelers how to get to US 460 Grundy if you're heading eastbound to the current end of VA 460.  Don't know if there's anything posted on WB 460 leaving Grundy to get you to VA 460.

So it is incorrectly signed. You have to use secondary roads to connect between the new highway and US-460 in the Grundy area. There is no basis for signing US-460 on the new highway in VA/KY until it is all open in 2027.

[Roadgeek Adam]

Having been on the stretch of 52 in 2021, it was already pointless. There's not anywhere near enough traffic on 52 to justify this being upgraded to a freeway. It drove fine, even if it was long.

[Mapmikey]

What about US-460 when the relocated section US-23 to Grundy is complete? The old highway becomes BUS US-460?

Will become US 460 ALT.  Kentucky has already changed the signage on their side...

Meh.  Why not continue the practice of assigning some random three- or four-digit state route number?

This is consistent with what Virginia has asked for in the past when a US route was rerouted substantially.  The rejected US 360 ALT (now VA 360) is an example.

The brand new US 311 ALT is also an example, though I think it is silly in that instance.

We were talking about the KY side, too...

The Virginia application includes a memo from VDOT to KYTC requesting their approval of the US 460 ALT.  Then there is an e-mail response from KYTC 27 days later agreeing to do that after internal discussions.  I suspect Kentucky would've been happy to do the meh thing, but in the end went along with VDOT's request.  Since this portion of US 460 is not really winding and was improved on the Kentucky side in the modern era, IMO there is no reason for them to fight for a state designation.

I also agree that the Kentucky signage switch is premature.

[Beltway]

What about US-460 when the relocated section US-23 to Grundy is complete? The old highway becomes BUS US-460?

Will become US 460 ALT.  Kentucky has already changed the signage on their side...

Meh.  Why not continue the practice of assigning some random three- or four-digit state route number?

The incomplete US-29 Danville Bypass (before it was fully tied into US-29 north of the city) carried the temporary state route designation VA-265.

The incomplete US-58 Franklin-Carrsville Bypass (before it was fully tied into US-58 east of the city) carried the temporary state route designation VA-280.

[Rothman]

What about US-460 when the relocated section US-23 to Grundy is complete? The old highway becomes BUS US-460?

Will become US 460 ALT.  Kentucky has already changed the signage on their side...

Meh.  Why not continue the practice of assigning some random three- or four-digit state route number?

The incomplete US-29 Danville Bypass (before it was fully tied into US-29 north of the city) carried the temporary state route designation VA-265.

The incomplete US-58 Franklin-Carrsville Bypass (before it was fully tied into US-58 east of the city) carried the temporary state route designation VA-280.

Mapmikey understood the assignment.  You did not.  Again.  Stranger and stranger...

[Beltway]

What about US-460 when the relocated section US-23 to Grundy is complete? The old highway becomes BUS US-460?

Will become US 460 ALT.  Kentucky has already changed the signage on their side...

Meh.  Why not continue the practice of assigning some random three- or four-digit state route number?

The incomplete US-29 Danville Bypass (before it was fully tied into US-29 north of the city) carried the temporary state route designation VA-265.
The incomplete US-58 Franklin-Carrsville Bypass (before it was fully tied into US-58 east of the city) carried the temporary state route designation VA-280.

Mapmikey understood the assignment.  You did not.  Again.  Stranger and stranger...

What are you trying to gurge?

[hbelkins]

Where, exactly, will this new section of US 52 intersect the existing US 52 north of Gilbert?

Talk about winding roads -- the existing WV 65 climbing the mountain to access the new road, onto which US 52 is to be concurrent, is pretty winding and steep. It's almost worth it to stay on the old route if you're heading south from Williamson.

Speaking of which:

1.) There really needs to be a new route built across the mountain between Williamson (WV 49) and Naugatuck (WV 65.)

2.) Signage indicates that US 52 continues straight where it's supposed to turn onto WV 65.