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Author Topic: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program  (Read 7138 times)

sprjus4

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #175 on: October 25, 2019, 05:25:11 PM »

that would be rather tough to widen.
Tough, but not impossible. If they want the 2+2 HO/T concept maintained, they can either A) widen it, B) reduce standards and squeeze it in, or C) eliminate the Local-Thru setup to add room.

The last one is probably the worst idea, but it's proposed on I-270 so anything is possible.
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Beltway

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #176 on: October 25, 2019, 05:29:20 PM »

that would be rather tough to widen.
Tough, but not impossible. If they want the 2+2 HO/T concept maintained, they can either A) widen it, B) reduce standards and squeeze it in, or C) eliminate the Local-Thru setup to add room.
That would be about the probability of widening I-66 inside the Beltway to 8 lanes.

Getting the local governments to agree with it...
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sprjus4

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #177 on: October 25, 2019, 05:30:37 PM »

That would be about the probability of widening I-66 inside the Beltway to 8 lanes.

Getting the local governments to agree with it...
That's a different story. Engineering wise though, it could realistically be done, despite it being tough.
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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #178 on: October 25, 2019, 09:07:57 PM »

Enough with this off topic crap. 

A Transportation Q&A: Rahn Talks I-270, Partnerships, Growth and More

Rahn just keeps sidestepping the question about the American Legion bridge and the part of the beltway from there to I-270.

Quote
BB: There have been concerns expressed about widening the southern section of I-270 without also doing the same to adjacent stretch of I-495 between the so-called “western spur” and the American Legion Bridge. Is adding that in this first phase potentially on the table?

Rahn: The governor’s direction to us was to focus on 270. I understand there’s a desire for connections elsewhere. I work for the governor. (smiles)

BB: Do you share the concerns of county officials that widening I-270 without doing the same to the western portion of the Beltway in Montgomery County could aggravate congestion?

Rahn: So, I’m not going to contradict the governor. I’ve been doing these jobs long enough. I’ve learned that’s not good for your employment status. (laughs)
It sounds like they're even going to do the northern part of I-270 before the beltway.  That section of the beltway would probably be the highest revenue section of HOT lane in the state since it has the worst congestion problem.  So I'm surprised they are proposing it this way.  I wonder if they feel that doing that section of the beltway would exacerbate the congestion problem on the adjacent part of the beltway to I-95.  So they want to do that whole section of the beltway together.  Maybe they want/need to have another company expand the beltway than the one that expands I-270.
They're proposing it that way because that's the easy section.  I'm guessing that the governor wants something he can quickly get done and have a ribbon cutting so that he can point to it and say that the system is underway when the other sections inevitably get bogged down.
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Beltway

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #179 on: October 25, 2019, 10:41:57 PM »

That would be about the probability of widening I-66 inside the Beltway to 8 lanes.
Getting the local governments to agree with it...
That's a different story. Engineering wise though, it could realistically be done, despite it being tough.

Well, engineering-wise, the whole unbuilt D.C. freeway system (segments of I-95, I-295, I-695, I-66, I-266 and I-270) could realistically be done, despite it being tough.
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1995hoo

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #180 on: Today at 09:35:07 AM »

The governors of Virginia and Maryland announced an agreement to replace the American Legion Bridge as part of the express lane project:

https://www.governor.virginia.gov/newsroom/all-releases/2019/november/headline-849278-en.html
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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #181 on: Today at 10:10:30 AM »

^ And Twitter has been all over the place this morning as a result.  Some pro-transit folks are asking why it doesn't have a rail component, while one yazoo down in Charles County is claiming that the commute to DC from there is worse.
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sprjus4

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #182 on: Today at 04:33:54 PM »

while one yazoo down in Charles County is claiming that the commute to DC from there is worse.
In fairness, US-301 is a very unreliable and congested roadway. Have you ever tried it at rush hour? It's just about as bad as I-95 south of DC, except non-limited-access, traffic signals, etc.. Both roadways are horrible and unreliable. Leaving DC at rush hour is a bottleneck, whether it be I-95 or US-301. It -is- an issue. Maryland has failed for decades now to construct the I-95 Eastern Bypass (just as much as VDOT has failed to widen I-95 to at least 8-10 GP lanes each way, and has openly admitted in the past few weeks they won't be pursuing but rather more transit, HO/T, and "innovative" solutions which doesn't do much overall to help the corridor in reality) which would create a 6-8 lane freeway along the US-301 corridor in that area, and could feature direct connections to the MD-5 expressway which ultimately needs to be upgraded to freeway by building interchanges/overpasses at the remaining intersections, and widening it to at least 6 lanes, preferably 8.
« Last Edit: Today at 04:37:11 PM by sprjus4 »
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Beltway

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #183 on: Today at 04:40:29 PM »

In fairness, US-301 is a very unreliable and congested roadway. Have you ever tried it at rush hour? It's just about as bad as I-95 south of DC, except non-limited-access, traffic signals, etc.. Both roadways are horrible and unreliable.
US-301 is -horrible- in peak periods.  I tried it in lieu of I-95 recently and experienced at least 60 minutes of delay.

Maryland has failed for decades now to construct the I-95 Eastern Bypass (just as much as VDOT has failed to widen I-95 to at least 8-10 GP lanes each way)
I-95 would work reasonably well as is plus the current projects below Garrisonville, if the eastern bypass / I-97 Extension was complete, given the relief and the alternatives it would provide.
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sprjus4

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #184 on: Today at 04:44:40 PM »

I tried it in lieu of I-95 recently and experienced at least 60 minutes of delay.
Are you comparing it to the I-95 Express Lanes, or I-95 general purpose lanes? The Express Lanes to US-301 comparison isn't fair at all.

I'd argue the I-95 general purpose lanes are still faster overall than US-301, though I've experienced similar travel times on both depending on the time of day. Still bumper to bumper bottleneck on both facilities.

I-95 would work reasonably well as is plus the current projects below Garrisonville, if the eastern bypass / I-97 Extension was complete, given the relief and the alternatives it would provide.
I-95 would work reasonably well if there was an Eastern Bypass, at least 8 GP lanes (4 each way) north of Fredericksburg, and preferably north of I-295. 6-lanes is still too little for 130,000-200,000 AADT, and even if that reduces to say 90,000 - 160,000 AADT, you still need at least 8 GP lanes ideally. VDOT is falling behind with having only 6 lanes and having no long-term plan to widen it. That is, they had a massive expansion plan recommended in VTrans years back, but since HO/T lanes have been implemented, they are now shying away from widening.
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Beltway

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #185 on: Today at 04:57:51 PM »

I tried it in lieu of I-95 recently and experienced at least 60 minutes of delay.
Are you comparing it to the I-95 Express Lanes, or I-95 general purpose lanes? The Express Lanes to US-301 comparison isn't fair at all.
The level of delay as tracked by my OnStar nav system. 

The change in ETA from when I entered US-301 at US-50, to when I reached the Potomac River.

I-95 would work reasonably well as is plus the current projects below Garrisonville, if the eastern bypass / I-97 Extension was complete, given the relief and the alternatives it would provide.
I-95 would work reasonably well if there was an Eastern Bypass, at least 8 GP lanes (4 each way) north of Fredericksburg, and preferably north of I-295. 6-lanes is still too little for 130,000-200,000 AADT, and even if that reduces to say 90,000 - 160,000 AADT, you still need at least 8 GP lanes ideally. VDOT is falling behind with having only 6 lanes and having no long-term plan to widen it.
Maryland should help fund it if they are not going to do anything to help increase north-south capacity between Richmond and Baltimore.

That is, they had a massive expansion plan recommended in VTrans years back
VTrans recommended all sorts of expansions that have been priced out of feasibility over the last 20 years or so, due to massive construction cost escalations in that period.

The current projects will provide 5 or more I-95 directional peak lanes from VA-3 northward, plus the Outer Connector Corridor 5 between VA-3 and US-17, a local freeway.

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sprjus4

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #186 on: Today at 05:01:00 PM »

Maryland should help fund it if they are not going to do anything to help increase capacity between Richmond and Baltimore.
The heavy traffic load traveling between Richmond / I-64 -> DC isn't Maryland's problem, it's Virginia.

The current projects will provide 5 or more I-95 directional peak lanes from VA-3 northward,
During peak hours, 2 lanes of HOV-3 and people paying $30+ for a 65 mph ride, and everybody else moving at 10-15 mph in the 3 other lanes.

plus the Outer Connector Corridor 5 between VA-3 and US-17, a local freeway.
The I-95 C/D lanes in that area is a good start, now time to extend that "local freeway" to the Maryland line.
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Beltway

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #187 on: Today at 05:27:48 PM »

Maryland should help fund it if they are not going to do anything to help increase capacity between Richmond and Baltimore.
The heavy traffic load traveling between Richmond / I-64 -> DC isn't Maryland's problem, it's Virginia.
Part of it is Maryland's fault, and what are they doing to even plan what I said?

The current projects will provide 5 or more I-95 directional peak lanes from VA-3 northward,
During peak hours, 2 lanes of HOV-3 and people paying $30+ for a 65 mph ride, and everybody else moving at 10-15 mph in the 3 other lanes.
As I have said before I rarely pay anywhere near that level and most of my trips at least are somewhere in the peak hours range.  Plus the GP lanes average double or triple that figure.

My last 6 months, taken from my EZPass account interface --

5/28/2019 9:12:54 AM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -23.05
5/28/2019 7:36:17 PM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -13.80
6/6/2019 7:35:13 PM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -15.70
6/11/2019 9:23:32 AM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -18.90
6/21/2019 8:30:03 AM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -16.50
7/8/2019 8:58:08 PM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -6.90
7/8/2019 9:13:02 AM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -13.65
8/1/2019 10:14:01 AM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -9.55
8/1/2019 9:30:48 PM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -8.00
8/20/2019 9:41:29 AM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -12.75
8/20/2019 8:58:16 PM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -10.65
9/13/2019 8:44:39 AM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -16.60
9/16/2019 3:07:02 PM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -15.15
10/1/2019 9:20:01 AM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -15.80
10/1/2019 8:34:26 PM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -8.05
10/22/2019 9:27:12 AM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -13.55
10/22/2019 8:24:42 PM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -15.75
11/5/2019 9:17:27 AM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -17.60
11/5/2019 7:17:21 PM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -16.35
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sprjus4

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #188 on: Today at 05:38:03 PM »

Part of it is Maryland's fault, and what are they doing to even plan what I said?
What is Virginia doing to even plan what you said? And don't cite an EIS from 40 years ago.

As I have said before I rarely pay anywhere near that level and most of my trips at least are somewhere in the peak hours range.  Plus the GP lanes average double or triple that figure.

My last 6 months, taken from my EZPass account interface --<snip>
I've done a majority of trips on Friday afternoons, and I've calculated the tolls numerous of times via Transurban's privatized lanes website, and they most of the time come out to north of $30 for an entire trip from I-495 to Garrisonville, and that's in the 2-3 pm range.

I've once seen a trip from I-66 to Garrisonville north of $50. I can't imagine what a trip will be from Fredericksburg to the DC line once Transurban extends their privatized, profit-generating toll lanes north and south. $75 for 45 miles?
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Beltway

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #189 on: Today at 05:44:59 PM »

Part of it is Maryland's fault, and what are they doing to even plan what I said?
What is Virginia doing to even plan what you said? And don't cite an EIS from 40 years ago.
Maryland's intransigence makes a Virginia segment meaningless.

As I have said before I rarely pay anywhere near that level and most of my trips at least are somewhere in the peak hours range.  Plus the GP lanes average double or triple that figure.
My last 6 months, taken from my EZPass account interface --<snip>
I've done a majority of trips on Friday afternoons, and I've calculated the tolls numerous of times via Transurban's privatized lanes website, and they most of the time come out to north of $30 for an entire trip from I-495 to Garrisonville, and that's in the 2-3 pm range.
Then let's see it, post your toll transactions like I did.

Friday afternoon, especially between Memorial Day and Labor Day, should tend to be pretty expensive.

a trip will be from Fredericksburg to the DC line once Transurban extends their privatized, profit-generating toll lanes north and south. $75 for 45 miles?
Can't imagine that.  The southern most 10 miles tends to have the lowest per mile tolls.

I won't be using I-395 in any event, that will be a commuter route.  If I was a commuter I could pick up enough slugs so that I could ride free, or else be a slug myself.
 
« Last Edit: Today at 05:48:48 PM by Beltway »
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sprjus4

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #190 on: Today at 05:56:57 PM »

Maryland's intransigence makes a Virginia segment meaningless.
Couldn't Maryland say the same thing about Virginia in a sense? It's bickering between both states, and both states need to get their act together, not just Maryland. This whole story is a train-wreck for both states.

Then let's see it, post your toll transactions like I did.
I'd post my toll transactions, but I've never utilized the HO/T lanes as a single occupant. I have utilized them though when carpooling, but at that point it was free.
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Beltway

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #191 on: Today at 06:03:37 PM »

Maryland's intransigence makes a Virginia segment meaningless.
Couldn't Maryland say the same thing about Virginia in a sense? It's bickering between both states, and both states need to get their act together, not just Maryland. This whole story is a train-wreck for both states.
Not really.

VDOT produced a EIS/location study for their portion of a western Washington bypass back around 2000.  Maryland's lack of studying anything pretty much rendered it irrelevant and it didn't proceed.

Then let's see it, post your toll transactions like I did.
I'd post my toll transactions, but I've never utilized the HO/T lanes as a single occupant. I have utilized them though when carpooling, but at that point it was free.

OK, but I posted actual transactions with a date-time stamp.
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sprjus4

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #192 on: Today at 06:04:42 PM »

OK, but I posted actual transactions with a date-time stamp.
What do you not get about the fact I don't pay Transurban's $30 toll? I have no transactions to post because I have none.
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sprjus4

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #193 on: Today at 06:06:14 PM »

VDOT produced a EIS/location study for their portion of a western Washington bypass back around 2000.  Maryland's lack of studying anything pretty much rendered it irrelevant and it didn't proceed.
Then build Virginia's portions and come knocking at Maryland's front door. The pressure would largely be on them. VDOT producing a study doesn't say much. Build it and prove there's commitment within Virginia and not mere talk and studies, and maybe Maryland would get serious.

Virginia's produced a lot of studies. US-460 EIS / Location Study, I-73 EIS / Location Study, Southeastern Expressway EIS / Location Study, Martinsville Southern Connector EIS / Location Study, and so on.

Nothing ever got built.
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Beltway

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #194 on: Today at 06:15:32 PM »

OK, but I posted actual transactions with a date-time stamp.
What do you not get about the fact I don't pay Transurban's $30 toll? I have no transactions to post because I have none.
Well, OK, but I posted actual transactions of what happened.

VDOT produced a EIS/location study for their portion of a western Washington bypass back around 2000.  Maryland's lack of studying anything pretty much rendered it irrelevant and it didn't proceed.
Then build Virginia's portions and come knocking at Maryland's front door. The pressure would largely be on them. VDOT producing a study doesn't say much. Build it and prove there's commitment within Virginia and not mere talk and studies, and maybe Maryland would get serious.
I really don't think that would have worked. 

There was a Yahoo group called Marylanders For a Second Crossing, with a bunch of Maryland supporters posting there, in real time between about 1998 and 2010, and Montgomery County basically refused to even study any such project let alone lead anyone to believe that they would ever support it.

Based on what I saw I would not support Virginia building such a project with any hope of Maryland building their portion, that the probability would be low enough that it looked highly unlikely if not at the vanishing point.
 
« Last Edit: Today at 06:19:08 PM by Beltway »
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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #195 on: Today at 06:20:31 PM »

Montgomery County basically refused to even study any such project let alone lead anyone to believe that they would ever support it.
Bypass Montgomery County.



How did they allow the ICC to get built?
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sprjus4

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #196 on: Today at 06:24:28 PM »

Based on what I saw I would not support Virginia building such a project with any hope of Maryland building their portion, that the probability would be low enough that it looked highly unlikely if not at the vanishing point.
The segment between I-66 and Leesburg could easily be a SIU, same with I-95 to I-66 West - essentially all of Virginia's portion.

The I-95 to I-66 segment would provide a bypass of congested US-29 and US-17, and allow thru traffic to easily skip over to I-81 via I-66 and to head north up that route and avoid DC.

If you need to build, build it as a 4-lane freeway initially, then widen it to 6-lanes when / if Maryland completes their portion. If you toll it (it's Virginia so 99% chance it's tolled) then build it 6-lanes from inception.

« Last Edit: Today at 06:26:54 PM by sprjus4 »
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Beltway

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #197 on: Today at 06:28:15 PM »

Montgomery County basically refused to even study any such project let alone lead anyone to believe that they would ever support it.
Bypass Montgomery County.
Maryland would not support that route.

How did they allow the ICC to get built?
With great difficulty.

Mainly helped by the fact that it followed much of the Outer Beltway route first mapped out in the 1960s, and the fact that it does not cross the Potomac River, aka Techway that Maryland refused to study.
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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #198 on: Today at 06:29:57 PM »

Based on what I saw I would not support Virginia building such a project with any hope of Maryland building their portion, that the probability would be low enough that it looked highly unlikely if not at the vanishing point.
The segment between I-66 and Leesburg could easily be a SIU, same with I-95 to I-66 West - essentially all of Virginia's portion.

The radical environmentalist/transit groups would have conniption fits.
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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #199 on: Today at 06:32:04 PM »

Based on what I saw I would not support Virginia building such a project with any hope of Maryland building their portion, that the probability would be low enough that it looked highly unlikely if not at the vanishing point.
The segment between I-66 and Leesburg could easily be a SIU, same with I-95 to I-66 West - essentially all of Virginia's portion.

The radical environmentalist/transit groups would have conniption fits.
But less, because it wouldn't cross the Potomac River. And Maryland isn't involved, so I could easily see it built if Virginia truly is committed and has the funding (neither of which has been shown by them).

I mean, the RE/T groups started crying when VDOT announced the I-81 plan. They'll literally complain at any project, big or small.

I'm shocked there hasn't been as much outrage about projects like the HRBT expansion, Third Crossing proposals, or I-64 widening to Richmond, two of those projects completely unfunded.
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