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Author Topic: Interstate 345/US 75 history  (Read 2150 times)

TXtoNJ

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Re: Interstate 345/US 75 history
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2019, 03:47:24 PM »

Donít see the point of keeping 345 just to satisfy some desire to complete a system. If the people who live there donít want it, so be it. 45 can be routed on LBJ east.
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: Interstate 345/US 75 history
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2019, 03:48:52 PM »

I doubt that would happen, plus you're going into fictional territory.
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In_Correct

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Re: Interstate 345/US 75 history
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2019, 09:09:09 PM »

Actually the highways are not owned by the neighbourhoods nor causing any other type of destruction.
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US 89

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Re: Interstate 345/US 75 history
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2019, 12:41:08 AM »

Donít see the point of keeping 345 just to satisfy some desire to complete a system. If the people who live there donít want it, so be it. 45 can be routed on LBJ east.

Oh god, let's not start this again...

And for the record, I am strongly opposed to any proposed removal/downgrade of I-345.
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bugo

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Re: Interstate 345/US 75 history
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2019, 06:08:11 AM »

Quote from: Henry
I'd like to see it finished up to at least Checotah (where it would junction I-40), if not further.

I don't think Checotah is far enough an extension of I-45. I think the Interstate should follow US-69 past Checotah and up until it meets I-44 at Big Cabin. I believe that's a more natural destination, considering the high amount of commercial trucking traffic on that corridor. I don't see I-40 being as significant a long distance destination since long haul traffic coming up from the DFW region and going to the I-40 corridor would more likely take I-30 to Little Rock or US-287 to Amarillo.

If the segment from Atoka thru Stringtown and on up to McAlester was all brought up to Interstate quality (bypasses in some places obviously) then I-45 could at least be temporarily signed up to I-40. I just think it's more natural for it to go Big Cabin. It would also be acceptable to send I-45 up to Tulsa. But I think that's a more diffcult upgrade propsect. Upgrading US-75 thru Henryetta is a little tricky. Olkmulgee would require a substantial bypass. The Glenpool area on the South side of the Tulsa metro presents its own difficulties. And then there's the problem of all that truck traffic likely staying on US-69.
That traffic light in Glenpool is ridiculous. Unfortunately, several buildings will have to be demolished when they build an interchange there. The status quo is unacceptable. US 75 is a non-stop four lane divided expressway with a long freeway section from Bartlesville to Okmulgee, a distance of about 80 miles, except for the one light in Glenpool. ODOT should be ashamed for not building an interchange here ~60 years after the expressway was built

Speaking of the US 75/141th Street non-interchange, that intersection was once the southern terminus of US 169. 141st through Glenpool was once OK 67. Union Avenue ended at 141st, and the part of the Okmulgee Beeline south of 141st wasn't built until years later so the US 169 designation ended at OK 67. A US highway ending at a non-coastal state highway is kind of weird but not without prescident. US 169 has been rerouted and no longer serves west Tulsa or Glenpool but it still has an odd terminus. US 64 and 169 are duplexed south of OK 51. The highway, the Mingo Valley Expressway, meets the Creek Turnpike in southeast Tulsa south of 91st Street. The Creek Turnpike, superfluously given the OK 364 designation a few years ago, is a toll road east of this interchange. There is a short section of the Creek Turnpike that is toll-free where the OK 364 designation piggybacks on the US 64/169 freeway. At Memorial Drive, US 64 exits the freeway and heads south towards Bixby. The toll road resumes west of Memorial. Straight ahead is the Creek Turnpike/OK 364. US 169 simply vanishes at the Memorial interchange. There is an End US 169 sign posted on the mainline just before the ramp to Memorial. The reason US 169 doesn't terminate at the interchange between the Broken Arrow Expressway/OK 51/US 64 is because the Mingo Valley Expressway is locally known as "169" and if it were US 64 alone it would confuse drivers. Incidentally, US 75 once served the eastern side of Tulsa. It originally went through Collinsville and Owasso and later followed what is now US 169 from OK 20 in Collinsville to I-44 in Tulsa where the Mingo Valley Expressway ended for several years. US 75 and 169 followed I-44/Skelly Drive west to the modern I-44/US 75 interchange just west of the Arkansas River. US 75 headed south on the Okmulgee Beeline (What is now US 75 between I-44 and I-244 was completed several years after the highway to the south was opened.) US 169.perfomed a vanishing act at the I-44/US 75 cloverleaf. US 169 also ended at 51st Street just south of OK 51 for a few years.
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bugo

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Re: Interstate 345/US 75 history
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2019, 06:15:51 AM »

How far north could I-45 be signed today if Texas and/or Oklahoma wanted to sign it? (In other words, at what point does it cease to be Interstate standard.)

I know the freeway ends at Colbert, OK.
The bridges over the Red River are substandard, so perhaps I-45 should end at US 69 just south of the state line until new bridges are built and the freeway is complete ro US 70. Another advantage for ending I-45 at US 69 is that Texas can unilaterally extend it that far north without the hassle of getting Oklahoma involved.

Texas is notorious for being zealots when it comes to decommissioning US highways that were made obsolete by parallel Interstates. If I-45 is extended north of Dallas, US 75 will no doubt be truncated. Will US 75 end somewhere in Texas or will they truncate it to Atoka?
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bugo

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Re: Interstate 345/US 75 history
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2019, 06:30:32 AM »

Donít see the point of keeping 345 just to satisfy some desire to complete a system. If the people who live there donít want it, so be it. 45 can be routed on LBJ east.
The highway was there when most of the residents of that neighborhood moved there. They knew the freeway was there when they made the decision to move there, therefore they can just live with it. Removing this freeway would be absolutely catastrophic to Dallas' traffic. It is bad enough with I-345 in place but if it were gone, I-30, I-35E and TX 366 would be a nightmare to drive and would be a parking lot 24/7. They shouldn't inconvenience millions of motorists a year just because a bunch of hipsters don't want to look at that old ugly freeway because they are offended by it. I have been to Deep Ellum and the freeway is not that bad. Traffic on the side streets would increase dramatically if a surface street were built through there. It would take pedestrians longer to cross a street at grade than it currently takes to walk under the existing viaduct. They need to quit whining and do what does the greater good.

If this highway is removed, do you think the hipsters will proclaim victory and celebrate their win? No. They will just start demanding other highways be removed until there are no urban freeways in DFW. Why are these residents so special? Why do they get to make decisions that affect millions of motorists each year? I live very close to a highway. It gets loud at times but you don't see me advocating tearing the freeway down. So you can't call me a hypocrite.
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rte66man

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Re: Interstate 345/US 75 history
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2019, 09:34:43 PM »

That traffic light in Glenpool is ridiculous. Unfortunately, several buildings will have to be demolished when they build an interchange there. The status quo is unacceptable. US 75 is a non-stop four lane divided expressway with a long freeway section from Bartlesville to Okmulgee, a distance of about 80 miles, except for the one light in Glenpool. ODOT should be ashamed for not building an interchange here ~60 years after the expressway was built

If they take the mainline on a slightly western curve, the Phillips station would be the only thing they would have to demolish. Sorta like what they did with OK74 at NW 150th in OKC.
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bugo

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Re: Interstate 345/US 75 history
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2019, 10:33:57 PM »

That is a possibility but it would still be a huge job that would cost a lot of money
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Bobby5280

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Re: Interstate 345/US 75 history
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2019, 03:51:21 PM »

ODOT will eventually be forced to upgrade the intersections in Glenpool (even if an extension of I-45 north never happens) just out of local traffic concerns.

I don't know what to think of the partial bypass on the East side of Olkmulgee (OK Loop 56). It doesn't look like anything a future freeway could actually use; the ROW only looks wide enough for a 4-lane expressway with at-grade intersections. Too many driveways empty out onto it already. A new freeway through there would have to be built on a new terrain path. It would probably be easier to build a new bypass around the West side of Olkmulgee. And such a thing might be better since more industrial businesses are on that side of town.
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Avalanchez71

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Re: Interstate 345/US 75 history
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2019, 11:03:39 PM »

ODOT will eventually be forced to upgrade the intersections in Glenpool (even if an extension of I-45 north never happens) just out of local traffic concerns.

I don't know what to think of the partial bypass on the East side of Olkmulgee (OK Loop 56). It doesn't look like anything a future freeway could actually use; the ROW only looks wide enough for a 4-lane expressway with at-grade intersections. Too many driveways empty out onto it already. A new freeway through there would have to be built on a new terrain path. It would probably be easier to build a new bypass around the West side of Olkmulgee. And such a thing might be better since more industrial businesses are on that side of town.

That is the North Carolina tax busting way of doing business.
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In_Correct

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Re: Interstate 345/US 75 history
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2019, 11:31:33 PM »

How far north could I-45 be signed today if Texas and/or Oklahoma wanted to sign it? (In other words, at what point does it cease to be Interstate standard.)

I know the freeway ends at Colbert, OK.
The bridges over the Red River are substandard, so perhaps I-45 should end at US 69 just south of the state line until new bridges are built and the freeway is complete ro US 70. Another advantage for ending I-45 at US 69 is that Texas can unilaterally extend it that far north without the hassle of getting Oklahoma involved.

Texas is notorious for being zealots when it comes to decommissioning US highways that were made obsolete by parallel Interstates. If I-45 is extended north of Dallas, US 75 will no doubt be truncated. Will US 75 end somewhere in Texas or will they truncate it to Atoka?

But those bridges aren't even 30 years old??

Also The Unfinished Corridor has sharp curves south of Red River, but it is not as bad as the curves all ready on Interstate 35.

Yes, extending Interstate 45 some place near Denison would happen first. It might take decades to extend it in to Oklahoma. It could make its way to the middle of Colbert, but there are no major highways nearby. Also in the stretch of The Unfinished Corridor near Colbert has many outdated narrow ramps. Or perhaps they are just striped badly. The Gore Markings are too short.

I read some where the original plan is to truncate U.S. 75 at Atoka when ever Interstate 45 is extended. ... unless they changed their minds and want to reroute U.S. 75 some place else then there could be separate U.S. 69, U.S. 75, and Interstate 45.

Don’t see the point of keeping 345 just to satisfy some desire to complete a system. If the people who live there don’t want it, so be it. 45 can be routed on LBJ east.
The highway was there when most of the residents of that neighborhood moved there. They knew the freeway was there when they made the decision to move there, therefore they can just live with it. Removing this freeway would be absolutely catastrophic to Dallas' traffic. It is bad enough with I-345 in place but if it were gone, I-30, I-35E and TX 366 would be a nightmare to drive and would be a parking lot 24/7. They shouldn't inconvenience millions of motorists a year just because a bunch of hipsters don't want to look at that old ugly freeway because they are offended by it. I have been to Deep Ellum and the freeway is not that bad. Traffic on the side streets would increase dramatically if a surface street were built through there. It would take pedestrians longer to cross a street at grade than it currently takes to walk under the existing viaduct. They need to quit whining and do what does the greater good.

If this highway is removed, do you think the hipsters will proclaim victory and celebrate their win? No. They will just start demanding other highways be removed until there are no urban freeways in DFW. Why are these residents so special? Why do they get to make decisions that affect millions of motorists each year? I live very close to a highway. It gets loud at times but you don't see me advocating tearing the freeway down. So you can't call me a hypocrite.

That is what I was trying to say. They act like a Highway destroyed their neighbourhoods and also destroyed their lives. But actually they do not own the land this "Foreign Invader" is built on. It is best if TX DOT decides to Eminent Domain more land, not the other way around.

Hipsters do celebrate victories, but you are right: they also complain about every thing. The only people who complain more than Hipsters do are People Who Want To Be Hipsters. Nothing makes them happy ever! Either people are bossy and demanding and they do not even know why they want some thing.

We do not need a Paris, Texas design.

And it would be dangerous for Pedestrians if things became Pedestrian Friendly be cause all The Hipsters have in mind for "Pedestrian Friendly" is to minimize the infrastructure, not improve it.

A Deck Park would be perfect for Pedestrians. Until then they can beautify the existing bridge with the usual elegant piers that are seen in Texas Interchanges. Or The People That Live Nearby can keep quiet and accept that they have all ways lived near two major Interchanges and some very busy rail roads.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 08:58:20 PM by In_Correct »
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rte66man

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Re: Interstate 345/US 75 history
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2019, 06:25:17 AM »

How far north could I-45 be signed today if Texas and/or Oklahoma wanted to sign it? (In other words, at what point does it cease to be Interstate standard.)

I know the freeway ends at Colbert, OK.
The bridges over the Red River are substandard, so perhaps I-45 should end at US 69 just south of the state line until new bridges are built and the freeway is complete ro US 70. Another advantage for ending I-45 at US 69 is that Texas can unilaterally extend it that far north without the hassle of getting Oklahoma involved.

Texas is notorious for being zealots when it comes to decommissioning US highways that were made obsolete by parallel Interstates. If I-45 is extended north of Dallas, US 75 will no doubt be truncated. Will US 75 end somewhere in Texas or will they truncate it to Atoka?

But those bridges aren't even 30 years old??

It's not the age. I don't know why, but they have practically no inside shoulder. They knew better but cheaped out. Might be because TX wouldn't pay their share?  That has been a recent problem with Red River bridges.  ODOT plans them but TX is supposed to pay 50% but often doesn't pay up in a timely manner (see US377 Willis Bridge).
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bugo

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Re: Interstate 345/US 75 history
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2019, 02:41:22 PM »

If they take the mainline on a slightly western curve, the Phillips station would be the only thing they would have to demolish. Sorta like what they did with OK74 at NW 150th in OKC.

That would be difficult because there is an interchange 1 mile south of 141st at 151st/OK 67. A highway that swung to the west would have to include a fairly sharp curve so it would line up with the highway to the south. There is also a bunch of development at US 75 and 138th Street which would have to be bulldozed (or else the highway will have another sharp turn on the north side of the interchange).  You could also build a folded diamond with the ramps on the NW corner of the intersection. But getting 141st to fly over US 75 would include taking properties on both sides of the highway. It's a problem that doesn't have any easy solutions but it is a problem ODOT should have taken care of before all that development popped up and set aside the ROW for an interchange. What were they thinking when they built that college building at the SE corner of the interchange? Did ODOT not have an interchange in their plans for the distant future? They took out the 111th Street traffic light and converted it to an overpass with a partial interchange a few years ago, so at least they have made some process over the last few years.
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Road Hog

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Re: Interstate 345/US 75 history
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2019, 08:11:20 PM »

How far north could I-45 be signed today if Texas and/or Oklahoma wanted to sign it? (In other words, at what point does it cease to be Interstate standard.)

I know the freeway ends at Colbert, OK.

By the current standard the designation would have to stop at US 380 in McKinney. The highway through Sherman is notoriously substandard with short on and off ramps (and too many of them at that) and terrible sight lines. Through trucks have to ride their Jake Brakes as a safety feature. That long-needed upgrade is scheduled to start at the end of this year. Once that is finished, I think it's a done deal that I-45 will be designated up to US 70 in Durant.
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rte66man

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Re: Interstate 345/US 75 history
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2019, 09:10:33 PM »

How far north could I-45 be signed today if Texas and/or Oklahoma wanted to sign it? (In other words, at what point does it cease to be Interstate standard.)

I know the freeway ends at Colbert, OK.
By the current standard the designation would have to stop at US 380 in McKinney. The highway through Sherman is notoriously substandard with short on and off ramps (and too many of them at that) and terrible sight lines. Through trucks have to ride their Jake Brakes as a safety feature. That long-needed upgrade is scheduled to start at the end of this year. Once that is finished, I think it's a done deal that I-45 will be designated up to US 70 in Durant.


Uhh, no.

Even after the Calera project is completed, there will be at least 9 at-grade intersections between there and Colbert. Plus each carriageway is substandard.

« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 11:16:57 AM by rte66man »
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In_Correct

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Re: Interstate 345/US 75 history
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2019, 09:15:46 PM »

How far north could I-45 be signed today if Texas and/or Oklahoma wanted to sign it? (In other words, at what point does it cease to be Interstate standard.)

I know the freeway ends at Colbert, OK.

By the current standard the designation would have to stop at US 380 in McKinney. The highway through Sherman is notoriously substandard with short on and off ramps (and too many of them at that) and terrible sight lines. Through trucks have to ride their Jake Brakes as a safety feature. That long-needed upgrade is scheduled to start at the end of this year. Once that is finished, I think it's a done deal that I-45 will be designated up to US 70 in Durant.

Unless they have upgraded their ramps, Colbert has a similar problem. The ramps might not be a short as the area south of U.S. 82, but the ramps in The Colbert Freeway (yet another name for the infinitely designated The Unfinished Corridor?) are still very short.

About what I said about extending Interstate 45 at Atoka. There are no other U.S. Highways nearby that completely goes through Atoka. It would be a Fork In The Road. One direction "West" would be U.S. 75. "East" would be U.S. 69.

About extending Interstate 45 to Durant: Would Interstate 45 stop at the new U.S. 70, or the old "Main Street" alignment?

And I thought that the upgrade for Calera is only the north side of Calera, not the south side between Calera and Colbert.
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In_Correct

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Re: Interstate 345/US 75 history
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2019, 09:20:18 PM »

How far north could I-45 be signed today if Texas and/or Oklahoma wanted to sign it? (In other words, at what point does it cease to be Interstate standard.)

I know the freeway ends at Colbert, OK.

Uhh, no.

Even after the Calera project is completed, there will be at least 9 at-grade intersections between there and Colbert. Plus each carriageway is substandard.

By the current standard the designation would have to stop at US 380 in McKinney. The highway through Sherman is notoriously substandard with short on and off ramps (and too many of them at that) and terrible sight lines. Through trucks have to ride their Jake Brakes as a safety feature. That long-needed upgrade is scheduled to start at the end of this year. Once that is finished, I think it's a done deal that I-45 will be designated up to US 70 in Durant.

This Is Confusing.

 :confused:

Quote
How far north could I-45 be signed today if Texas and/or Oklahoma wanted to sign it? (In other words, at what point does it cease to be Interstate standard.)

I know the freeway ends at Colbert, OK.


Quote
By the current standard the designation would have to stop at US 380 in McKinney. The highway through Sherman is notoriously substandard with short on and off ramps (and too many of them at that) and terrible sight lines. Through trucks have to ride their Jake Brakes as a safety feature. That long-needed upgrade is scheduled to start at the end of this year. Once that is finished, I think it's a done deal that I-45 will be designated up to US 70 in Durant.


Quote
Uhh, no.

Even after the Calera project is completed, there will be at least 9 at-grade intersections between there and Colbert. Plus each carriageway is substandard.

Much Better.

 :sombrero:
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rte66man

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Re: Interstate 345/US 75 history
« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2019, 11:15:42 AM »

Yeah, I went back and fixed it. Sloppy on my part.
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dfwmapper

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Re: Interstate 345/US 75 history
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2019, 03:10:31 AM »

Would US 75 between LBJ and PGBT even meet standards for a new designation as an Interstate? There are no inside shoulders due to the HOV lanes. From what I remember in reading some of the materials on the LBJ expansions, there was an exemption that allowed existing Interstates to remove the inside shoulder if the space was being used to add an HOV lane, but I'm guessing that the exemptions wouldn't apply to a new designation, and therefore there's no realistic chance of extending I-45 beyond I-635.

For the record, most of the housing in and around Deep Ellum isn't even old enough to drink in Deep Ellum yet. There are a few exceptions; the townhouses between San Jacinto and Bryan were built in the early 80s, Marquis on Gaston (between Gaston and the DART tracks) opened in '96, and what is now Cortland Bryan Place (910 Texas St.) and the Live Oak Lofts (south corner of Good-Latimer and Live Oak) opened in 98 or 99, but pretty much everything else is 2000+. In any case, everyone who lives the area knew exactly what they were getting when they moved there, and I don't think there's really any call from residents or businesses in the area to tear down I-345. All it would do is make traffic miserable for the residents and kill off more businesses. As far as I can tell, the only people who actually want I-345 gone are real estate developers looking to make money building stuff in the wasteland between Good-Latimer and Pearl, and the general anti-freeway crowd who hate everything, even though none of them would actually live in Deep Ellum. I think there is plenty of local support for replacing the elevated structure with something below-grade with a deck over top, but only if it can somehow be done without a decade-long traffic snarl, so good luck with that.
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Bobby5280

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Re: Interstate 345/US 75 history
« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2019, 01:06:33 AM »

Well, the way you do it is figure out how to burrow a new I-45 under Deep Ellum and Downtown Dallas to merge into North Central all while keeping the existing elevated freeway intact as long as possible. The tear-down of the elevated facility only occurs when the below grade new freeway is nearly completed and ready to merge with the existing North Central Expressway North of downtown.
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In_Correct

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Re: Interstate 345/US 75 history
« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2019, 05:55:41 AM »

That wasteland needs to be Eminent Domain and become the property of TX DOT.

Is The Land that the bridge crosses even the property of TX DOT?!  :confused:

People such as Anti-Freeway People behave as if it is not.

As for keeping traffic lanes open during construction:

They will find a way to do it as they all ways have. I do not agree with closing half a bridge to do maintenance or construction while keeping very narrow lanes open. Even if they do not close The Bridge while building The Trench, they need to start reconstruction of Interstate 345 now so they can get it finished, done, and over with. Delaying the reconstruction is much worse than delaying the traffic during the reconstruction.
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