The Clearview thread

[1995hoo]

BTW, in one of my earlier comments further up the thread I mentioned the use of fractions done as if they were on a typewriter instead of in the normal style. Those VA-236 signs on I-395 shown above are two examples of what I was saying there.

I rather prefer the old style of not putting a space in between the exit number and the suffix.

[J N Winkler]

BTW, in one of my earlier comments further up the thread I mentioned the use of fractions done as if they were on a typewriter instead of in the normal style. Those VA-236 signs on I-395 shown above are two examples of what I was saying there.

That style of writing fractions (which I call "inline fractions") is an old problem and isn't really anything to do with Clearview specifically--though Clearview has introduced its own problems with fractions (see below).  When the Millennium MUTCD came out, all the artwork was redone specially for it, was not pattern-accurate, and used inline fractions although the tabulated height values for numerator and denominator were unchanged.  When the 2003 MUTCD was released several years later, the artwork was done again and was pattern-accurate, but the fractions were still inline.

In the traffic engineering community it is common to accept MUTCD illustrations as indicative although, strictly speaking, the text and tables are authoritative.  In the wake of the Millennium and 2003 editions of the MUTCD it became very common to see sign design sheets showing inline fractions.  The artwork for the 2009 MUTCD, which is greatly changed from that of the 2003 edition, corrects this particular error and as a consequence, it is becoming rarer to see inline fractions on sign design sheets.

Clearview and fractions have led to a separate problem.  When Clearview was first rolled out around 2003, SignCAD was the only major signing CAD package which supported Clearview directly.  Unfortunately it was soon discovered that SignCAD's default fraction composition routine resulted in Clearview fractions with numerators and denominators which were so small they failed to comply with MUTCD specification.  Arizona DOT (and possibly some other SignCAD-using agencies) got around the problem by producing their own custom fractions, complying with MUTCD requirements, which were copied over into sign drawings as needed.  Other agencies (including quite a few TxDOT districts) simply used the wrongly sized fractions, or avoided the problem by using inline fractions instead of fraction rectangles.  The last I heard about this particular issue (several years ago), SignCAD was planning to get around the problem by overhauling fraction composition in a future version of SignCAD.  I do not know if this has happened.

As others have said upthread, the real problem with the I-95/Springfield signs is bad composition, but I frankly doubt that signs using Series E Modified would have looked much better if the same capital letter height were used.  Even if the street names were composed at a smaller font size--which they should have been and were in the original sign design sheets--the overall panel sizes are too small to permit normal interline spacing (which is the same for Clearview as it is for Series E Modified, except of course that all dimensions have to be referred to capital letters because Clearview ascenders "stick up").  My guess is that the message revisions were not just about changing Series E Modified to Clearview, but also about geeing up the size of the main legend, probably from 13.3" uppercase/10" lowercase to 16" uppercase.  If panel size is not changed (as is implied by the use of overlays), this results in a very cramped appearance.

[1995hoo]

We now have a couple of Clearview overhead street signs over in Springfield. The one shown below was erected this spring to replace a Gothic version that was damaged by wind over the Washington's Birthday weekend. This sign looks reasonably good to me, although it's interesting to see that this sign is white-on-green (as are others in that immediate area). If you go a short distance east of there, the overhead street signs of this sort are white-on-blue, which is Fairfax County's standard street sign color scheme (although the overhead signs like these are rather inconsistent on the whole). I don't know how responsibility for the pole-mounted street signs versus the overhead ones like these is determined or how they decide which color to use. I imagine froggie probably knows.

Sorry about the water in the picture. It was starting to drizzle a bit when I took the picture.

[Michael]

I knew Thruway signs were ugly, but I had no idea it could get this bad:

Ew!!!  *shudders*

I also made Clearview and FHWA versions of the California state route shield...

I never thought I'd ever say this, but I kind of like the Clearview CA-99 shield.

[Quillz]

I really have no issues with Clearview route shields as long as the legend maintains a good proportional size. Unfortunately, most real world Clearview shields use huge legend, so it just looks bad.

[Dr Frankenstein]

Parcs Québec (who maintains the national parks, wildlife reserves and other nature-oriented and historic areas) seems to be intensively working on replacing all their yellow-on-brown signs from wooden + Helvetica to aluminum + Clearview.

Even signs in their hiking trails are now Clearview.

[WillWeaverRVA]

We now have a couple of Clearview overhead street signs over in Springfield. The one shown below was erected this spring to replace a Gothic version that was damaged by wind over the Washington's Birthday weekend. This sign looks reasonably good to me, although it's interesting to see that this sign is white-on-green (as are others in that immediate area). If you go a short distance east of there, the overhead street signs of this sort are white-on-blue, which is Fairfax County's standard street sign color scheme (although the overhead signs like these are rather inconsistent on the whole). I don't know how responsibility for the pole-mounted street signs versus the overhead ones like these is determined or how they decide which color to use. I imagine froggie probably knows.

There's actually Clearview scattered all over the place in Fairfax County, and most of the BGSes on I-395 are Clearview now.

[roadfro]

I am still shocked that Nevada has Clearview up. I am wondering whether this is a trial thing or if it's a design/contractor goof that wasn't caught.

Well, to reply to myself, it seems that the Clearview on US 395 in Reno isn't a goof. I drove by today and noticed two more sign gantries have been put up in the last week, each using Clearview. The sign for I-80 east is just as atrociously designed as the 80 west sign discussed on page 24 of the thread.

[1995hoo]

There's actually Clearview scattered all over the place in Fairfax County, and most of the BGSes on I-395 are Clearview now.

I know, I live in Fairfax County. I just haven't seen many Clearview street signs (as opposed to BGSs or other guide signs). There's even a yellow "right lane ends" overhead warning sign that uses Clearview on I-395 at the southbound lane drop at the VA-236 exit.

I'm in the Miami area as I type this and I don't think I've seen any Clearview anywhere in Florida so far. Seems weird not to see ANY once you get used to it!

[realjd]

There's actually Clearview scattered all over the place in Fairfax County, and most of the BGSes on I-395 are Clearview now.

I know, I live in Fairfax County. I just haven't seen many Clearview street signs (as opposed to BGSs or other guide signs). There's even a yellow "right lane ends" overhead warning sign that uses Clearview on I-395 at the southbound lane drop at the VA-236 exit.

I'm in the Miami area as I type this and I don't think I've seen any Clearview anywhere in Florida so far. Seems weird not to see ANY once you get used to it!

Florida's Clearview is limited to the Orlando area. OOCEA uses it extensively. I've never seen FDOT use it.

Be sure to try Cuban food while you're in Miami. Good stuff!

[Fixed mangled quote. -S.]

[ftballfan]

There's actually Clearview scattered all over the place in Fairfax County, and most of the BGSes on I-395 are Clearview now.

I know, I live in Fairfax County. I just haven't seen many Clearview street signs (as opposed to BGSs or other guide signs). There's even a yellow "right lane ends" overhead warning sign that uses Clearview on I-395 at the southbound lane drop at the VA-236 exit.

I'm in the Miami area as I type this and I don't think I've seen any Clearview anywhere in Florida so far. Seems weird not to see ANY once you get used to it!

Michigan has a lot of Clearview. I can think of one freeway that doesn't have a lot of Clearview on it (M-6), and that is because it was finished right before MDOT started using Clearview.

US-31 in Northern/Western Michigan is kind of weird when it comes to Clearview. Heading south out of Traverse City, the signs are in Clearview until you hit Scottville. Between Scottville and the US-31 freeway (only ~5 miles) there is little if any Clearview. As soon as the freeway picks up again, you start seeing Clearview again.

[Android]

This is a followup, one that I'd never have thought I'd make!
Below is part of a post I made a while back in this thread, regarding the Northbound Wyoming I-25 exit #25 gore sign. 

I had happened to have pictures of the previous gore signs and when the 2006 one got smashed into, I figured it would be replaced by a Clearview, and I was right.  (ugh!)

Well, I drove by there yesterday, and I totally didn't notice til I was almost past the sign there was yet ANOTHER new sign there, and this time... no Clearview!  I was shocked, because WYDOT has been putting up Clearview signs all over the place (interstates only) the last couple of years.   I had to turn around and go back there and verify what I'd seen - yep a little "11" in the corner for 2011, and it's Good Old Series E.  !

So anyway, here's part of my post about the "three little gores" followed by a picture taken yesterday of the latest.   

so..... Once Upon A Time there were Three Gores (signs), One was a Big
Gore, one was an Little Gore  and one was and Ugly Gore.....  Here's
photos of all three:

[roadfro]

^ Another question in relation to that sign: Why is Wyoming DOT using that ugly design for the exit gore sign?

[Eth]

^ Another question in relation to that sign: Why is Wyoming DOT using that ugly design for the exit gore sign?

If you're referring to the exit number being put on a separate line at the top, other states have done this, too.  Back when Georgia still had sequential exit numbers (the '90s), this was pretty common for three-digit exit numbers.

[Android]

In never thought those "compact" gore signs to be that ugly.  In fact, that first huge EXIT 25 sign always seemed to me to be "wrong" which was why I took a picture of it, not long after I got my first digital camera.  

I'm not sure what's up with the gore signs - WYDOT uses this style but sometimes you'll see Clearview and sometimes FHWA lately.  I speculated that maybe the Series E were "old stock" signs kicking around the warehouse, but that wouldn't explain why they changed that EXIT 25 one to a new Clearview then two years later, back to a new Series E.    

Mostly, I'm used to seeing things like this one - before/after:



But then there's signs like these, another recent replacement in Series E
and older replacement in Series D and Clearview.

[1995hoo]

There's actually Clearview scattered all over the place in Fairfax County, and most of the BGSes on I-395 are Clearview now.

I know, I live in Fairfax County. I just haven't seen many Clearview street signs (as opposed to BGSs or other guide signs). There's even a yellow "right lane ends" overhead warning sign that uses Clearview on I-395 at the southbound lane drop at the VA-236 exit.

I'm in the Miami area as I type this and I don't think I've seen any Clearview anywhere in Florida so far. Seems weird not to see ANY once you get used to it!

Florida's Clearview is limited to the Orlando area. OOCEA uses it extensively. I've never seen FDOT use it.

Be sure to try Cuban food while you're in Miami. Good stuff!

[Fixed mangled quote. -S.]

Indeed this proved to be the case. Wednesday afternoon we drove from Viera to Disney World and saw the Clearview signs as soon as we turned onto the Bee Line. What was funny was when we left Disney on Friday evening to drive to Green Cove Springs. I-4 was at a standstill so I took FL-417 all the way around to Sanford (worked fine) and it was very amusing how the southern part of the road (south of the Bee Line) is 95% Clearview and the northern part of the road (which is run by the Turnpike) had no Clearview. While it's not so odd to see both on the same road, it's unusual in my experience to see such a stark demarcation of near-total Clearview on one part and NO Clearview on the other.

[roadfro]

^ Another question in relation to that sign: Why is Wyoming DOT using that ugly design for the exit gore sign?

If you're referring to the exit number being put on a separate line at the top, other states have done this, too.  Back when Georgia still had sequential exit numbers (the '90s), this was pretty common for three-digit exit numbers.

They probably modeled it after the MUTCD example of a exit number plaque being added to the top of a non-numbered exit gore sign, but that was designed for situations where the exit number is applied later. The 2009 MUTCD has a narrow version of the exit gore sign (E5-1c) designed for narrow lateral offsets, but it's actually not pictured in there or SHS--in any case, there's one in Reno designed with "EXIT" on top, the number below, then an arrow below that (Google Street View), which makes better sense from a design perspective.

[myosh_tino]

They probably modeled it after the MUTCD example of a exit number plaque being added to the top of a non-numbered exit gore sign, but that was designed for situations where the exit number is applied later. The 2009 MUTCD has a narrow version of the exit gore sign (E5-1c) designed for narrow lateral offsets, but it's actually not pictured in there or SHS--in any case, there's one in Reno designed with "EXIT" on top, the number below, then an arrow below that (Google Street View), which makes better sense from a design perspective.

The exit gore sign in the Street View image kind of looks like California's 3 and 4 digit exit gore signs including the use of the shorter shaft arrow...


FWIW, I created a new topic on exit gore signs with some comments on what Caltrans' District 6 has been up to in the Fresno area (using FHWA-style gore signs instead of California's narrower signs).

[codyg1985]

While driving through St. Petersburg on I-275 I noticed a couple of blue service signs that appeared to use all-caps Clearview.

[1995hoo]

BTW, it's not really Clearview-related, but a thread on fonts seemed to be the right place to ask–what is the font that Georgia uses on most of its BGSs? It's not Clearview and it doesn't look like any of the Gothic fonts. The only other place where I can recall seeing the same font used in Georgia was on the Outer Loop of the Beltway in Virginia between I-66 and US-50 where one of the signs for US-50 was in that "Georgia font." (The sign has been removed as part of the HOT construction project and the new signs going up all use Clearview.) I find the "Georgia font" to be easier on the eyes in terms of its appearance than either Clearview or Gothic, but I find Clearview the easiest to read at a distance.

[agentsteel53]

what is the font that Georgia uses on most of its BGSs?

I seem to recall them using mixed-case Series C or D... can you provide a photo and if so I may be able to identify the font.

[1995hoo]

what is the font that Georgia uses on most of its BGSs?

I seem to recall them using mixed-case Series C or D... can you provide a photo and if so I may be able to identify the font.

I don't have any pictures I've taken, but here's an unfortunately-grainy image from Google Street View from NB I-95 at I-16. It doesn't look quite like Series C or Series D to me.

http://maps.google.com/?ll=32.069884,-81.248059&spn=0.027929,0.066047&z=15&layer=c&cbll=32.069966,-81.248019&panoid=tgudlPnXjr5vaW6mru4TAw&cbp=12,42.22,,0,-24.44

[J N Winkler]

It is mixed-case Series D (as indicated on the very few pattern-accurate sign design sheets GDOT produced before they reformed and resumed using Series E Modified and started drawing up plans in SignCAD).

[agentsteel53]

the uppercase letters are D.  the lowercase I believe are very close to D as well.

the FHWA lowercase alphabets were not standardized until the early 2000s; each state seems to have come up with a very slightly different interpretation, though most states seemed to use the alphabets which (I believe) Kansas developed by the 60s, with some minor variations here and there.  I know Florida made up their own and that looks noticeably different, as does Washington's (or is that City of Seattle?  either way - there's some interesting 1960s and 70s mixed case signs in that area)... but what you see there on the Georgia sign is close enough to what FHWA settled on by 2002 to just be called FHWA 2002.

this is something JN Winkler mentioned a few months (years?) ago in some thread somewhere; maybe he could recall more accurately than I just did.

[myosh_tino]

I don't have any pictures I've taken, but here's an unfortunately-grainy image from Google Street View from NB I-95 at I-16. It doesn't look quite like Series C or Series D to me.

http://maps.google.com/?ll=32.069884,-81.248059&spn=0.027929,0.066047&z=15&layer=c&cbll=32.069966,-81.248019&panoid=tgudlPnXjr5vaW6mru4TAw&cbp=12,42.22,,0,-24.44

Here's a picture of that same sign bridge from the AARoads' Gallery...


Here's my recreation of the signs in the photo above using the Roadgeek Series D fonts...

I'd say I got it pretty close although I did have to tinker with the inter-character spacing a little bit.