North Houston Highway Improvement Project

[sprjus4]

That is absurd.  The project should never be approved until the highway has a plan to cap.  Just awful.

There is a plan to cap. It's designed to be. It needs to be funded via other sources. That's not on the state through transportation dollars to do.

[Anthony_JK]

The caps are already there in the proposal; the development of the space the caps would take over would require supplemental funding from sources other than initial construction.

The actual caps can be funded out of base construction costs, but any enhancements and development of the space taken by the caps and the adjacent properties would require additional supplemental sources for funding (local, private, etc.).

[jgb191]

I don't know how relevant this is to this topic, but the North Sam Tollway segment between Hardy Tollway and J.F. Kennedy Blvd is only six lanes wide (three in each direction).  I believe that North segment might be one of the busier segments of the entire S.H. Tollway loop owing to a lot of traffic to and from the Bush airport.  When will that be widened to at least four each direction (to make it eight-lanes)?

[abqtraveler]

The caps are already there in the proposal; the development of the space the caps would take over would require supplemental funding from sources other than initial construction.

The actual caps can be funded out of base construction costs, but any enhancements and development of the space taken by the caps and the adjacent properties would require additional supplemental sources for funding (local, private, etc.).

Of course. Development of the parcels of land that were freed up by the Big Dig was paid for by local funds for parks or private investors for buildings.

[bwana39]

I don't know how relevant this is to this topic, but the North Sam Tollway segment between Hardy Tollway and J.F. Kennedy Blvd is only six lanes wide (three in each direction).  I believe that North segment might be one of the busier segments of the entire S.H. Tollway loop owing to a lot of traffic to and from the Bush airport.  When will that be widened to at least four each direction (to make it eight-lanes)?

The busier portion is from the energy corridor to I-45.

[bluecountry]

The caps are already there in the proposal; the development of the space the caps would take over would require supplemental funding from sources other than initial construction.

The actual caps can be funded out of base construction costs, but any enhancements and development of the space taken by the caps and the adjacent properties would require additional supplemental sources for funding (local, private, etc.).

That should have been a concession to build.

[MaxConcrete]

The Clayton Homes housing project on Runnels Street is fully vacated and fenced. Relocating all the residents of the 184 units is a big step, since they (presumably) all needed subsidized housing.

There is no evidence of demolition about to start. But as the photo shows, the fence has been breached. There is an abundance of homeless people in the area who would probably like to seize control of the property, so I think TxDOT will need to proceed with demolition promptly.

http://dallasfreeways.com/dfwfreeways/AARoads/20221113-NHHIP_010_1600.jpg


http://dallasfreeways.com/dfwfreeways/AARoads/20221113-NHHIP_007-1600.jpg

There was a large fire at the vacant property on Saturday, LOL!

This link has a video report.
https://www.click2houston.com/news/local/2023/03/19/fire-damages-clayton-homes-apartments-in-downtown-houston/

HOUSTON — A massive fire reportedly broke out at an apartment complex in downtown Houston Saturday.

The Houston Fire Department responded to the blaze at the Clayton Homes Apartments located in the 1910 block of Runnels Street.

Crews say the two-alarm fire began at around 8 p.m. Saturday night.

The complex was said to have been shut down back in July 2022, and demolition was reportedly set to take place in the near future as part of the ongoing I-45 expansion project.

Arson investigators were on scene following the fire, working to determine what may have caused the flames.

From https://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/45066-i-45-rebuild-north-houston-highway-improvement-project/page/62/#comments

[Plutonic Panda]

Should've just let it burn lol

[triplemultiplex]

Says someone who doesn't live downwind from the fire.

[MaxConcrete]

The pause and lawsuit delayed the project. TxDOT revealed the new schedule on Friday and the Chronicle reported on it today.
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/transportation/article/harris-county-i-45-rebuilding-project-houston-18073985.php

See agenda item 11 for video of the presentation
https://hgac.swagit.com/play/04282023-609
Presentation: https://www.txdot.gov/content/dam/project-sites/nhhip/images/i45-nhhip-presentation-to-hgac-transportation-policy-council-april2023.pdf

In short, the schedule is pushed into the future. WAY into the future. Downtown work is scheduled to be finished in 2038, and the overall project in 2042. I'll be 75 years old when it is done!

The first job (3B) is scheduled to start in 2024, but it is only a small drainage job. Freeway construction, estimated at $585 million, is slated to start in 2025.
Job 3A is now slated to start in 2026 and the price has increased to $640 million.
I'm especially disappointed that segment 2 is now slated for 2033 to 2039. The interchange is a major bottleneck on Loop 610, but now relief is 16 years in the future.

[kernals12]

The pause and lawsuit delayed the project. TxDOT revealed the new schedule on Friday and the Chronicle reported on it today.
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/transportation/article/harris-county-i-45-rebuilding-project-houston-18073985.php

See agenda item 11 for video of the presentation
https://hgac.swagit.com/play/04282023-609

In short, the schedule is pushed into the future. WAY into the future. Downtown work is scheduled to be finished in 2038, and the overall project in 2042. I'll be 75 years old when it is done!

The first job (3B) is scheduled to start in 2024, but it is only a small drainage job. The first freeway construction is slated to start in 2025.
Job 3A is now slated to start in 2026 and the price has increased to $640 million.
I'm especially disappointed that segment 2 is now slated for 2033 to 2039. The interchange is a major bottleneck on Loop 610, but now relief is 16 years in the future.

With any luck, the traffic delays this will cause will get people to see that taking away lanes of traffic does in fact make traffic worse and making more of them makes it better.

[rte66man]

The pause and lawsuit delayed the project. TxDOT revealed the new schedule on Friday and the Chronicle reported on it today.
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/transportation/article/harris-county-i-45-rebuilding-project-houston-18073985.php

I'm especially disappointed that segment 2 is now slated for 2033 to 2039. The interchange is a major bottleneck on Loop 610, but now relief is 16 years in the future.

Yeah, the part that is needed the most is one of the last to be done. I cannot imagine how bad the backups will be at either end.

[TXtoNJ]

The pause and lawsuit delayed the project. TxDOT revealed the new schedule on Friday and the Chronicle reported on it today.
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/transportation/article/harris-county-i-45-rebuilding-project-houston-18073985.php

See agenda item 11 for video of the presentation
https://hgac.swagit.com/play/04282023-609
Presentation: https://www.txdot.gov/content/dam/project-sites/nhhip/images/i45-nhhip-presentation-to-hgac-transportation-policy-council-april2023.pdf

In short, the schedule is pushed into the future. WAY into the future. Downtown work is scheduled to be finished in 2038, and the overall project in 2042. I'll be 75 years old when it is done!

The first job (3B) is scheduled to start in 2024, but it is only a small drainage job. Freeway construction, estimated at $585 million, is slated to start in 2025.
Job 3A is now slated to start in 2026 and the price has increased to $640 million.
I'm especially disappointed that segment 2 is now slated for 2033 to 2039. The interchange is a major bottleneck on Loop 610, but now relief is 16 years in the future.

Net effect of this is that 35 in Austin gets done before 45 in Houston. The budget for both of these is too big to have concurrent work in the absence of a 2009 TIGER-style stimulus.

[MaxConcrete]

Net effect of this is that 35 in Austin gets done before 45 in Houston. The budget for both of these is too big to have concurrent work in the absence of a 2009 TIGER-style stimulus.

I-35 Austin is currently on a fast track. Recent documents have a schedule which shows the entire project complete in summer 2032.
https://ftp.txdot.gov/pub/txdot/ppd/meetings/022823/presentation.pdf

Under the NHHIP schedule, only two sections would be done by 2032, with another (3C-1) nearing completion. So NHHIP would actually just be getting started by 2032, with the most difficult jobs (3D, 2) just underway or not even started.

It is possible that TxDOT Houston is throttling NHHIP so that NHHIP won't consume nearly all available funds in Houston for about 10 years. With a 20-year schedule, other projects can proceed concurrently. A prime candidate is the Inner Katy project. TxDOT recently reached an agreement with Houston Metro to accommodate Metro's elevated BRT, and TxDOT is soliciting consultants.
https://www.txdot.gov/business/peps/opportunities/meetings/pre-rfp-meeting-3-sd-pse-contracts-inner-katy-houston.html

Other projects slated to proceed soon are Interstate 10 widening in Brookshire (to 4-1-1-4, with frontage roads added) and more work on the SH 35 freeway with an interchange at Loop 610. A new multi-billion-dollar ship channel bridge for Loop 610 is also slated for the 2030s, but it remains to be seen if that moves forward.

[MaxConcrete]

Demolition of Clayton homes is underway.

Image credit to hindesky on HAIF
https://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/45066-i-45-rebuild-north-houston-highway-improvement-project/page/64/#comments

[bwana39]

Demolition of Clayton homes is underway.

Image credit to hindesky on HAIF
https://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/45066-i-45-rebuild-north-houston-highway-improvement-project/page/64/#comments

You realize that forty years from now, this will be remembered as the highway took away an urban paradise.

It was flood prone, and had been shut down BEFORE the freeway because it was contaminated with mold and sewerage. . It was relatively inexpensive.  Ironically it still will not be the mostly Hispanic residents who will be waxing nostalgic about it,

[J N Winkler]

We will just have to see--there doesn't seem to be much nostalgia for Pruitt-Igoe, for example, even though the architect was Minoru Yamasaki, who went on to design the Twin Towers.

As for the current scheduling of the various NHHIP phases, I think the lengthy timeline creates opportunities for cost escalation and has the potential to embolden opposition.

[bwana39]

We will just have to see--there doesn't seem to be much nostalgia for Pruitt-Igoe, for example, even though the architect was Minoru Yamasaki, who went on to design the Twin Towers.

As for the current scheduling of the various NHHIP phases, I think the lengthy timeline creates opportunities for cost escalation and has the potential to embolden opposition.

Yes, but it was not replaced by a freeway....

[DJStephens]

It's pie in the sky dreaming to think every urban freeway can be dug into a trench and capped. The Big Dig in Boston cost billions of dollars yet the tunnels aren't very long. They had all sorts of problems too with water seeping through the tunnel walls.

Trying to do cut and cover tunnels around downtown Houston would run into the same problems. Considering the fact Houston is far more prone to tropical storm strikes than Boston it's likely such cut-and-cover highway tunnels would flood.

It's ridiculous to build attractions such as Minute Maid Park in the downtown area yet expect the massive crowds to just ride a city bus or some nonsense. Houston already has multiple skyscraper districts in various parts of the metro. That's a reaction to workers moving farther and farther out from costly city centers that are too complicated and time-draining to visit. The New Urbanism ideology doesn't stop to consider how much time it actually takes to ride a bus or train. The ideology sure as hell doesn't consider the obscene extreme prices of housing in that Utopian urban center.

Disagree.

1.  You can tunnel, cut and cover, OR cap/sell air rights.
2.  You build Minute Maid so there is a large population living nearby that can walk/bike vs having to import 100% longer distance people.

There are below-grade trenched sections of I-69/US 59 just to the west of the South Freeway interchange. Not sure if they flood in heavy rain or hurricane conditions....but then again, no one needs to be out in the middle of a landfalling Hurricane Ike in the first place.

Two sections of the NHIP are scheduled to be ultimately capped: the segment of I-69/US 59/relocated I-45 adjacent to Minute Maid Park, and a segment of I-45 just north of the divergence of I-10 west heading towards the Katy Freeway. The city would have to find donors willing to pay for the caps, since that would not be considered "transportation needs" that would qualify for Fed-state interstate funding; perhaps the recent grant H-GAC received could be a down payment on that.

Also, the realignment of I-10 and relocated I-45 east of the Allen Elevated section would be trenched as well.

From what I have seen, they do have mitigation measures set to deal with possible flooding (natural swales, retention ponds, relocation of Buffalo Bayou, etc.

I still say that they should have kept and improved the Allen Elevated section instead of rerouting I-45 and saved a ton of money and time. But, it is what it is. I'm just relieved that the project is somewhat back on track....for now.

That is absurd.  The project should never be approved until the highway has a plan to cap.  Just awful.

It's pie in the sky dreaming to think every urban freeway can be dug into a trench and capped. The Big Dig in Boston cost billions of dollars yet the tunnels aren't very long. They had all sorts of problems too with water seeping through the tunnel walls.

The total cost of the "big dig" was close to $22 Billion, as recalled.   Over the close to fifteen years of the project.  The original Artery, had it's southern section already tunneled, via cut and cover method, when it was actually discovered how atrocious the elevated section (circa '50) was going to turn out.  But it never had enough capacity, only 3 x 3.   The "new" cut and cover Artery doesn't have enough capacity, either, the third Harbor crossing to the Airport "saves" it to an extent.  It really should have been 5 x 5 in the main downtown section.   
Pork, grafts, and corruption plagued the "big dig" project, and while it was finally completed, it was multiple times more expensive, than if it had been done two decades before, in conjunction with, or immediately after hypothetical Inner Belt construction.   The single most glaring episode, was the falling of a concrete ceiling tile, that fell and killed a motorist in one of the "new" tunnels.  Turned out non galvanized rod had been used to hold the panels in place, instead of correct treated hardware elements for the enviroment.

Are you kidding me?  Make it 5x5?  Absolutely not.
The goal was to ease congestion and the god awful blight of the highway, you do this with full 12 foot lanes, shoulders, and easy merges in a city not making a mega highway; especially when it is designed for local not thru traffic!

They didn't build the Inner Belt (I-695) and some of the necessary radial expressways (I-95, Rte 2).  Many were built (Turnpike,  I-93, SE expressway), but not all. The Belt would have "dispersed" downtown traffic.  Final design revisions in the mid to late sixties either buried, depressed, or placed critical Belt sections at ground level.   Original plans were all elevated viaduct.  That is why a  5 x 5 "cut and cover" replacement central artery would have been optimal.  Because they didn't build the Inner Belt back in the day. 

[abqtraveler]

It's pie in the sky dreaming to think every urban freeway can be dug into a trench and capped. The Big Dig in Boston cost billions of dollars yet the tunnels aren't very long. They had all sorts of problems too with water seeping through the tunnel walls.

Trying to do cut and cover tunnels around downtown Houston would run into the same problems. Considering the fact Houston is far more prone to tropical storm strikes than Boston it's likely such cut-and-cover highway tunnels would flood.

It's ridiculous to build attractions such as Minute Maid Park in the downtown area yet expect the massive crowds to just ride a city bus or some nonsense. Houston already has multiple skyscraper districts in various parts of the metro. That's a reaction to workers moving farther and farther out from costly city centers that are too complicated and time-draining to visit. The New Urbanism ideology doesn't stop to consider how much time it actually takes to ride a bus or train. The ideology sure as hell doesn't consider the obscene extreme prices of housing in that Utopian urban center.

Disagree.

1.  You can tunnel, cut and cover, OR cap/sell air rights.
2.  You build Minute Maid so there is a large population living nearby that can walk/bike vs having to import 100% longer distance people.

There are below-grade trenched sections of I-69/US 59 just to the west of the South Freeway interchange. Not sure if they flood in heavy rain or hurricane conditions....but then again, no one needs to be out in the middle of a landfalling Hurricane Ike in the first place.

Two sections of the NHIP are scheduled to be ultimately capped: the segment of I-69/US 59/relocated I-45 adjacent to Minute Maid Park, and a segment of I-45 just north of the divergence of I-10 west heading towards the Katy Freeway. The city would have to find donors willing to pay for the caps, since that would not be considered "transportation needs" that would qualify for Fed-state interstate funding; perhaps the recent grant H-GAC received could be a down payment on that.

Also, the realignment of I-10 and relocated I-45 east of the Allen Elevated section would be trenched as well.

From what I have seen, they do have mitigation measures set to deal with possible flooding (natural swales, retention ponds, relocation of Buffalo Bayou, etc.

I still say that they should have kept and improved the Allen Elevated section instead of rerouting I-45 and saved a ton of money and time. But, it is what it is. I'm just relieved that the project is somewhat back on track....for now.

That is absurd.  The project should never be approved until the highway has a plan to cap.  Just awful.

It's pie in the sky dreaming to think every urban freeway can be dug into a trench and capped. The Big Dig in Boston cost billions of dollars yet the tunnels aren't very long. They had all sorts of problems too with water seeping through the tunnel walls.

The total cost of the "big dig" was close to $22 Billion, as recalled.   Over the close to fifteen years of the project.  The original Artery, had it's southern section already tunneled, via cut and cover method, when it was actually discovered how atrocious the elevated section (circa '50) was going to turn out.  But it never had enough capacity, only 3 x 3.   The "new" cut and cover Artery doesn't have enough capacity, either, the third Harbor crossing to the Airport "saves" it to an extent.  It really should have been 5 x 5 in the main downtown section.   
Pork, grafts, and corruption plagued the "big dig" project, and while it was finally completed, it was multiple times more expensive, than if it had been done two decades before, in conjunction with, or immediately after hypothetical Inner Belt construction.   The single most glaring episode, was the falling of a concrete ceiling tile, that fell and killed a motorist in one of the "new" tunnels.  Turned out non galvanized rod had been used to hold the panels in place, instead of correct treated hardware elements for the enviroment.

Are you kidding me?  Make it 5x5?  Absolutely not.
The goal was to ease congestion and the god awful blight of the highway, you do this with full 12 foot lanes, shoulders, and easy merges in a city not making a mega highway; especially when it is designed for local not thru traffic!

They didn't build the Inner Belt (I-695) and some of the necessary radial expressways (I-95, Rte 2).  Many were built (Turnpike,  I-93, SE expressway), but not all. The Belt would have "dispersed" downtown traffic.  Final design revisions in the mid to late sixties either buried, depressed, or placed critical Belt sections at ground level.   Original plans were all elevated viaduct.  That is why a  5 x 5 "cut and cover" replacement central artery would have been optimal.  Because they didn't build the Inner Belt back in the day.

The I-695 Inner Belt was never built because the Governor of Massachusetts ordered the cancellation of all proposed freeways inside the 128 loop in 1970, in response to widespread community opposition in Boston. The only exception was I-93 (Central Artery), as most of it was built by 1973 (I think the upper and lower decks section through Charlestown wasn't yet finished, but close). But I-95 inside 128 was cancelled, and rerouted over the 128 beltway. The I-695 Innerbelt was cancelled, and I think a couple others as well. The idea was to construct mass transit lines and subways in the corridors for the cancelled freeway segments, which I believe was mostly accomplished, but the side effect of cancelling the I-695 Innerbelt was the hours-long traffic jams on the Central Artery that ultimately led to the Big Dig project.

Houston is in a bit of a different situation than Boston, as the Houston metro area doesn't have much in the way of mass transit to speak of.  From my travels to and through Houston, I haven't noticed much in the way of passenger rail (both light and heavy), and Houston certainly doesn't have subways. Also, Houston's freeway network was largely built from the city center outward, whereas Boston's was built starting in the outlying areas and working inward.

They could probably figure out a way to incorporate mass transit into the Houston metro area, but at this point, I would suspect it would be much more costly and time consuming than what they're proposing to do with the NHHIP.

[The Road Warrior]

That is absurd.  The project should never be approved until the highway has a plan to cap.  Just awful.

This is outdated information. The final plan now has the freeway caps being built by TXDOT. The only thing that's not covered in the current plans are anything that will be built on the caps (whether that's parks or private development). That will have to be handled by private interests.

[bwana39]

[/color]

That is absurd.  The project should never be approved until the highway has a plan to cap.  Just awful.

This is outdated information. The final plan now has the freeway caps being built by TXDOT. The only thing that's not covered in the current plans are anything that will be built on the caps (whether that's parks or private development). That will have to be handled by private interests.

While the CAPS are part of the engineering for the freeway, is the funding in place for them? TxDOT doesn't normally pay for them even though they secure the engineering and let the contracts for them.  The promise right now is caps. What will actually get built 15 years from now is still up in the air. I feel there is a 50% likelihood the Pierce Elevated will still be standing and utilized as a freeway when I am gone. (I am 62.)

[Plutonic Panda]

It would be nice if they would just rebuild the Pierce Elevated and keep it but build it higher so more sunlight reaches the bottom making it less of a dividing road.

[bwana39]

It would be nice if they would just rebuild the Pierce Elevated and keep it but build it higher so more sunlight reaches the bottom making it less of a dividing road.

It isn't about the sunlight. It is about the people who reside under it. Getting rid of it is mainly about getting the homeless out of downtown.

Downtown Houston is over 1,000 acres. People are walking in less than half of it. After dark, most of it is a ghost town except for the bedded down homeless and a few of them who wander.

[TheBox]

I just realized something, that Love's Travel Stop at I-45 @ Patton St is the only major truck stop within the I-610 inner loop, and its not even in the cities eastern half (which is more industrial) but rather the middle, and on top of that the closest one to Downtown by far

Since it's probably gonna be capped, are they gonna make a new exit to Patton St or maybe worse-case scenario demolish that truck stop all together if there's enough buzz and uproar about that one?