NYC Roads

[Duke87]

I was always fascinated by roads in NYC that are underneath the elevated subway lines.  I always noticed how not only does the line separate the neighborhoods on each side, but it prevents a roadway that would normally be four lanes into a narrow two lane roadway plus a service road as the piers prevent easy lane changes between the inner and outer roadways so to speak.

So here's a good question: what's the correct protocol for driving on a road like this?  My first reaction to seeing one in the NYC meet was "what the hell".  It was around that time the person I carpooled with (we had peeled off from the tour at that point) got extremely tired of NYC driving.

Your safest bet is to treat it as a two lane road and stay in the middle. However, if you anticipate making a right turn, pay attention to what's going on outside the supports. If you see as you're approaching your turn that there's enough space on the outside to drive out there, you're going to want to move to the outside and treat it like a right turn lane.

Usually it is not possible to drive continuously on the outside of the supports, either because there really isn't enough room between the supports and the parked cars, or there is but double parked vehicles will force you to get back inside to go around them. People will sometimes try, though, so stay frosty.

[empirestate]

Usually it is not possible to drive continuously on the outside of the supports, either because there really isn't enough room between the supports and the parked cars, or there is but double parked vehicles will force you to get back inside to go around them. People will sometimes try, though, so stay frosty.

Jerome Ave., though, is one spot where you can often be successful driving on the outside, particularly between Woodlawn and Gun Hill.

[roadman65]

Thanks for your input on this one. As I learned that maybe my fascination for the Jerome Avenue El situation is because it creates a great challenge for the motorists having the piers built in the street.

Also thanks for pointing out that in Queens the Flushing Line does straddle Roosevelt Avenue where the piers are off to the side of the roadway.  However in Brooklyn, I am not too familiar with their El setups over roadways except for the one on the sitcom opening sequence for Welcome Back Kotter which has the piers in the street like Jerome Avenue.

Also I also learned that Jerome Avenue is where East Fordham Road becomes West Fordham Road and East Tremont Avenue becomes West Tremont Avenue as well as the numbered streets changing over as well.  How come that ended up as the baseline instead of the nearby Grand Concourse which you would figure should have been due to its grand stature within the borough?

[empirestate]

Also I also learned that Jerome Avenue is where East Fordham Road becomes West Fordham Road and East Tremont Avenue becomes West Tremont Avenue as well as the numbered streets changing over as well.  How come that ended up as the baseline instead of the nearby Grand Concourse which you would figure should have been due to its grand stature within the borough?

Grand Concourse is relatively new; it was built after (?) WWI. Jerome Avenue is the more long-standing thoroughfare in the area, and you may also notice it aligns more closely with Fifth Avenue, which is the E/W dividing line in Manhattan. Yes, the Bronx is quite lopsided in terms of the E/W designation, but that's because its street numbering and address system are an extension of Manhattan's, and thus something of an afterthought to that borough.

[cl94]

Thanks for your input on this one. As I learned that maybe my fascination for the Jerome Avenue El situation is because it creates a great challenge for the motorists having the piers built in the street.

Also thanks for pointing out that in Queens the Flushing Line does straddle Roosevelt Avenue where the piers are off to the side of the roadway.  However in Brooklyn, I am not too familiar with their El setups over roadways except for the one on the sitcom opening sequence for Welcome Back Kotter which has the piers in the street like Jerome Avenue.

The only El in Brooklyn that consistently has piers in the road is the Culver Line on McDonald Avenue. That's one you need to treat as 2 lanes. Same with the Astoria Line in Queens. The West End is split, straddling north of 18th Avenue and in the middle south of there.

Here's a good primer as to how stuff is set up:

Piers in street:
White Plains Road (2, 5)
Broadway (1, mostly)
Jerome Avenue (4)
Pelham (6) - This one is marked as 4 lanes in some locations and is generally sufficiently wide to drive outside the piers
Astoria (N, Q)
Culver (F)
West End (D, southern half)
Myrtle (M, the short portion not over Myrtle Avenue or on a separate ROW)

Straddling:
New Lots (3)
Flushing (7)
Jamaica (J, M, Z)
Myrtle Avenue (M, most of line)
West End (D, northern half)

[roadman65]

You forgot Rockaway Freeway in Queens as a straddling structure.

[Duke87]

Also missing from your list: the A train along Liberty Ave (former BMT Fulton Elevated) has a straddling the street design.

To add some flair to this discussion, as best as I can tell from old photos the piers in street design was predominant amongst the former elevated lines in Manhattan. The connector between the 6th Ave and 9th Ave els along 53rd street straddled the street, though (makes sense, street was narrow). As did the 9th Ave el at its "suicide curve" along 110th St and north of there.

[cl94]

Also missing from your list: the A train along Liberty Ave (former BMT Fulton Elevated) has a straddling the street design.

To add some flair to this discussion, as best as I can tell from old photos the piers in street design was predominant amongst the former elevated lines in Manhattan. The connector between the 6th Ave and 9th Ave els along 53rd street straddled the street, though (makes sense, street was narrow). As did the 9th Ave el at its "suicide curve" along 110th St and north of there.

I was just about to add the Liberty El.

If we're talking about former lines, the 5th Avenue El in Brooklyn straddled over 5th Avenue and had piers in the middle along Flatbush Avenue.

Honorable mentions:

LIRR along Atlantic Avenue in the vicinity of the Nostrand Avenue station has piers in the median with a left turn lane at some locations

Metro-North along Park Avenue has piers in the median and straddling north of 97th Street

[empirestate]

Metro-North along Park Avenue has piers in the median and straddling north of 97th Street

Eh? Metro North has masonry embankment to 111th Street, then steel viaduct from there, but still always in the median of Park Ave. There are no travel lanes under the structure.

[cl94]

Metro-North along Park Avenue has piers in the median and straddling north of 97th Street

Eh? Metro North has masonry embankment to 111th Street, then steel viaduct from there, but still always in the median of Park Ave. There are no travel lanes under the structure.

In the vicinity of 125th street. The station extends over the travel lanes.

[empirestate]

Metro-North along Park Avenue has piers in the median and straddling north of 97th Street

Eh? Metro North has masonry embankment to 111th Street, then steel viaduct from there, but still always in the median of Park Ave. There are no travel lanes under the structure.

In the vicinity of 125th street. The station extends over the travel lanes.

Ah, yes it does there, indeed. Elsewhere, there is parking and other auxiliary usage under the structure, but no travel. So there isn't any part I can think of that actually has dual-carriageway function.

[roadman65]

While we are Uptown, could someone please explain how the current viaduct that carries the connecting freeway between both I-95 and the Harlem River Drive which is that very old inclined roadway with multiple arches tied into the old 178th and 179th Street tunnels?  If you examine closely at the tunnel portal for the 178th Street tunnel you see its unused concrete roadway ties into the flyover bridge to the Washington Heights Bridge (aka the University Avenue Ramp).  That would make sense as US 1 before it got routed onto Webster Avenue (yes US 1 was not on the Alexander Hamilton Bridge or Cross Bronx after they were both built) used the Washington Heights Bridge to cross the Harlem River before going up University to Fordham Road eastbound to its current alignment.   However, unless the Harlem River Drive exit took a sharp left exit coming out of the tunnel, this configuration could have never worked.

Also, are the portals on the Hudson River side still there?  Its hard to see from GSV on any of the Henry Hudson ramps or even from I-95 itself.

[empirestate]

While we are Uptown, could someone please explain how the current viaduct that carries the connecting freeway between both I-95 and the Harlem River Drive which is that very old inclined roadway with multiple arches tied into the old 178th and 179th Street tunnels?  If you examine closely at the tunnel portal for the 178th Street tunnel you see its unused concrete roadway ties into the flyover bridge to the Washington Heights Bridge (aka the University Avenue Ramp).  That would make sense as US 1 before it got routed onto Webster Avenue (yes US 1 was not on the Alexander Hamilton Bridge or Cross Bronx after they were both built) used the Washington Heights Bridge to cross the Harlem River before going up University to Fordham Road eastbound to its current alignment.   However, unless the Harlem River Drive exit took a sharp left exit coming out of the tunnel, this configuration could have never worked.

I am not sure it ever did tie in to the tunnels. However, there is a ramp stub on the west side of the Harlem River Drive connector; could that have had something to do with it?

Also, are the portals on the Hudson River side still there?  Its hard to see from GSV on any of the Henry Hudson ramps or even from I-95 itself.

As far as I can tell, no. I believe the portals were obliterated, and the tunnels themselves truncated, by the construction of the GWB's lower deck.

EDIT: Ok, superseding my speculation above, you need to read this page (and make sure to click through on all the photo sequences).

[roadman65]

I just checked that one out.  I had no idea midway up the viaduct there is a stub. 

Also according to Papa Bear, from his renderings showing the route of the original viaduct splitting off to the right of the 1950 tunnel under 178th Street after exiting it.  That means that today's Amsterdam Avenue exit ramp was not there then.  Interesting they redid the new upper portion to look like the lower portion exactly with the arches which I think look cool!

I always admired that viaduct and think it looks so neat!


Edit, I saw another old photo showing the viaduct split into three.  The upper portion had two splits in it and the Amsterdam Avenue ramp was four lanes leading down to the old tunnels.

[empirestate]

A couple of topo links:

In 1947 (JPG) we see (sort of) the four-armed viaduct structure leading to and from both Amsterdam Ave. and the two-way 178th Street tunnel. At its western end, the tunnel transitions at about Broadway from the 178th Street alignment into the centerline of the GWB. Here's a StreetView image basically looking straight down the line of the tunnel facing east, and at about the same grade. If there were a remnant still visible today, it would be here (but there would be no portal, since this was not the opening of the tunnel).

Now, in the 1956 topo (JPG) we have the configuration for the two one-way tunnels, at 178th and now also 179th Street. Again, the viaduct from HRD has four legs: to and from Amsterdam Ave. (about where the present-day connection is), to the 179th Street tunnel, and from the 178th Street tunnel. Also now added are the ramps between the tunnels and the Washington Bridge (181st Street); note that there's a crossover just east of the tunnel portals that likely allowed Washington Bridge traffic to reach HRD southbound. (This photo from NYCRoads.com shows this crossover, along with the flared structure taking the HRD up to Amsterdam Ave.) Also observe that the ramp meeting Amsterdam Ave. at 175th Street is now only an exit ramp; in the prior arrangement it had been two-way.

(Update: Historic Aerials has a 1954 view of this configuration. There is definitely no ramp from Amsterdam to 179th, and the crossover doesn't look like it's open to general traffic.)

This 1956 version is essentially what we have today, except that the connections are now all squeezed together into the block between 178th and 179th Streets, which is now I-95 (and which now also extends eastward over the Alexander Hamilton Bridge). The only thing that seems to be missing is the ramp from Amsterdam Ave. into the 179th Street tunnel, although it may have been built at that time and been omitted from the map. (And again, the 179th Street tunnel curves at Broadway to meet the center of the GWB, and finding traces via StreetView is equally fruitless.)

[Alps]

Usually it is not possible to drive continuously on the outside of the supports, either because there really isn't enough room between the supports and the parked cars, or there is but double parked vehicles will force you to get back inside to go around them. People will sometimes try, though, so stay frosty.

[roadman65]

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8588604,-73.9228798,3a,15y,43.32h,84.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1DvrgvxnDYovgOuaZNYCsw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
I found this reference sign at the north end of the Harlem River Drive.  Now is not the Harlem River Drive and Driveway both city maintained?  If so why would a NYSDOT reference marker be used on a road they do not maintain?

[cl94]

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8588604,-73.9228798,3a,15y,43.32h,84.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1DvrgvxnDYovgOuaZNYCsw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
I found this reference sign at the north end of the Harlem River Drive.  Now is not the Harlem River Drive and Driveway both city maintained?  If so why would a NYSDOT reference marker be used on a road they do not maintain?

Because NYSDOT maintains it.

Most of the limited-access highways in Region 11 have reference markers regardless of who maintains them. A reference marker (or a reference route) does not necessarily indicate "maintained by NYSDOT".

Moving to Brooklyn, is any portion of the BQE in Brooklyn still maintained by NYCDOT? According to the highway inventory, NYSDOT maintains all of it.

[empirestate]

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8588604,-73.9228798,3a,15y,43.32h,84.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1DvrgvxnDYovgOuaZNYCsw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
I found this reference sign at the north end of the Harlem River Drive.  Now is not the Harlem River Drive and Driveway both city maintained?  If so why would a NYSDOT reference marker be used on a road they do not maintain?

Because NYSDOT maintains it.

Most of the limited-access highways in Region 11 have reference markers regardless of who maintains them. A reference marker (or a reference route) does not necessarily indicate "maintained by NYSDOT".

Moving to Brooklyn, is any portion of the BQE in Brooklyn still maintained by NYCDOT? According to the highway inventory, NYSDOT maintains all of it.

A lot of the expressways and parkways have what's called split jurisdiction, where the city does regular maintenance but the state comes in for major construction*. However, HRD isn't one of these, but for whatever reason, NYSDOT still has its reference markers on all of the NYC parkways.

*It's more complicated than that; here's a good summary of what "split jurisdiction" actually entails:
https://riverdalenature.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Sam-Schwartz-Study-on-Jurisdiction-along-the-HHP.pdf

[roadman65]

Is not the BQE promenade in Brooklyn  and the GCP section between the BQE and the RFK NYCDOT maintained?

[cl94]

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8588604,-73.9228798,3a,15y,43.32h,84.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1DvrgvxnDYovgOuaZNYCsw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
I found this reference sign at the north end of the Harlem River Drive.  Now is not the Harlem River Drive and Driveway both city maintained?  If so why would a NYSDOT reference marker be used on a road they do not maintain?

Because NYSDOT maintains it.

Most of the limited-access highways in Region 11 have reference markers regardless of who maintains them. A reference marker (or a reference route) does not necessarily indicate "maintained by NYSDOT".

Moving to Brooklyn, is any portion of the BQE in Brooklyn still maintained by NYCDOT? According to the highway inventory, NYSDOT maintains all of it.

A lot of the expressways and parkways have what's called split jurisdiction, where the city does regular maintenance but the state comes in for major construction*. However, HRD isn't one of these, but for whatever reason, NYSDOT still has its reference markers on all of the NYC parkways.

*It's more complicated than that; here's a good summary of what "split jurisdiction" actually entails:
https://riverdalenature.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Sam-Schwartz-Study-on-Jurisdiction-along-the-HHP.pdf

The 2012 Official Description of Highway Touring Routes gives Harlem River Drive to NYSDOT, as does the 2014 inventory.

Is not the BQE promenade in Brooklyn  and the GCP section between the BQE and the RFK NYCDOT maintained?

Official Description and Roadway Inventory give all of the GCP to NYSDOT. Given a couple peculiarities regarding signage and markings, I wouldn't doubt it.

[empirestate]

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8588604,-73.9228798,3a,15y,43.32h,84.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1DvrgvxnDYovgOuaZNYCsw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
I found this reference sign at the north end of the Harlem River Drive.  Now is not the Harlem River Drive and Driveway both city maintained?  If so why would a NYSDOT reference marker be used on a road they do not maintain?

Because NYSDOT maintains it.

Most of the limited-access highways in Region 11 have reference markers regardless of who maintains them. A reference marker (or a reference route) does not necessarily indicate "maintained by NYSDOT".

Moving to Brooklyn, is any portion of the BQE in Brooklyn still maintained by NYCDOT? According to the highway inventory, NYSDOT maintains all of it.

A lot of the expressways and parkways have what's called split jurisdiction, where the city does regular maintenance but the state comes in for major construction*. However, HRD isn't one of these, but for whatever reason, NYSDOT still has its reference markers on all of the NYC parkways.

*It's more complicated than that; here's a good summary of what "split jurisdiction" actually entails:
https://riverdalenature.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Sam-Schwartz-Study-on-Jurisdiction-along-the-HHP.pdf

The 2012 Official Description of Highway Touring Routes gives Harlem River Drive to NYSDOT, as does the 2014 inventory.

You're right, so it does. Was there a change between 2010 and 2012? And were the reference markers installed as part of that change?

[cl94]

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8588604,-73.9228798,3a,15y,43.32h,84.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1DvrgvxnDYovgOuaZNYCsw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
I found this reference sign at the north end of the Harlem River Drive.  Now is not the Harlem River Drive and Driveway both city maintained?  If so why would a NYSDOT reference marker be used on a road they do not maintain?

Because NYSDOT maintains it.

Most of the limited-access highways in Region 11 have reference markers regardless of who maintains them. A reference marker (or a reference route) does not necessarily indicate "maintained by NYSDOT".

Moving to Brooklyn, is any portion of the BQE in Brooklyn still maintained by NYCDOT? According to the highway inventory, NYSDOT maintains all of it.

A lot of the expressways and parkways have what's called split jurisdiction, where the city does regular maintenance but the state comes in for major construction*. However, HRD isn't one of these, but for whatever reason, NYSDOT still has its reference markers on all of the NYC parkways.

*It's more complicated than that; here's a good summary of what "split jurisdiction" actually entails:
https://riverdalenature.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Sam-Schwartz-Study-on-Jurisdiction-along-the-HHP.pdf

The 2012 Official Description of Highway Touring Routes gives Harlem River Drive to NYSDOT, as does the 2014 inventory.

You're right, so it does. Was there a change between 2010 and 2012? And were the reference markers installed as part of that change?

I don't know if there was a change, but the reference markers were likely in place beforehand. All of the limited-access parkways in the City have them regardless of who maintains them.

[empirestate]

Was there a change between 2010 and 2012? And were the reference markers installed as part of that change?

I don't know if there was a change, but the reference markers were likely in place beforehand. All of the limited-access parkways in the City have them regardless of who maintains them.

That's what I thought. I've been seeing them on all area parkways since I started visiting the area, and that was long before 2010. So, we're back to "for whatever reason"–that is, we still don't have the answer to why the markers appear on non-state roads; we've simply established that the HRD isn't an example of this.

[cl94]

Was there a change between 2010 and 2012? And were the reference markers installed as part of that change?

I don't know if there was a change, but the reference markers were likely in place beforehand. All of the limited-access parkways in the City have them regardless of who maintains them.

That's what I thought. I've been seeing them on all area parkways since I started visiting the area, and that was long before 2010. So, we're back to "for whatever reason"–that is, we still don't have the answer to why the markers appear on non-state roads; we've simply established that the HRD isn't an example of this.

Correct. What's stranger is that there are none on surface routes maintained by NYSDOT. If we trust the 2014 Roadway Inventory, this includes much of NY 9A north of the Battery Tunnel and sections of Ocean Parkway.