Charlotte

[Rothman]

...I will stick to my previous understanding that the STIP requires NCDOT to widen this section of I-77 if the I-77 South express toll lanes is not carried forth.

STIPs don't require anyone to do anything. 

That was certainly the case until recently.  Under the new STIP system (Statewide Priority 40%; Regional Priority 30%; District Priority 30%) the appropriate NCDOT branch now has a fiscal responsibility to spend the allocated budget on each of the projects identified in the priority identified.  IIRC, widening I-77 south of Charlotte to the stateline was the highest priority of all projects.  Also keep in mind that under State Law, NCDOT cannot refer any projects to the North Carolina Turnpike Authority, only the Regional MPO can.  The way I see it, Charlotte just stuck NCDOT with the entire bill for widening I-77 (albeit at whatever cashflow rate the State can eke out these days).

STIPs don't require anyone to do anything.  Depends on MPO rules what happens if a project sponsor doesn't authorize/obligate its funding and doesn't delay or remove the project phase.  Worst case scenario the funding just plops back on the MPO table and if NCDOT let that happen without a Plan B, their capital program manager should be fired.

However, your entire comment has me wondering whether the STIP priority for the I-77 South widening was based solely on a traffic planning formula (of which the Regional MPO request was a big factor in the calculation), or if the original MPO-preferred funding strategy (PPP) skewed that calculus.  Either way, NCDOT really does needs a Plan B.  But if the STIP was dependent on the PPP funding strategy then NCDOT has a much bigger problem as the funding for other high-priority Statewide projects could be skewed in any recalculation.

Meh.  I'd bet they can just swap projects in and out of their priority list.  Well, now we have another highest priority...

I say the state should just fund a 4th general purpose lane for I-77 South. Everything about the I-77 North Express Lanes arrangement has been insulting to citizens with the underutilization of the additional capacity from overpriced initial toll rates and the lanes not even functioning like Express Lanes are supposed to (tolls only rise once 45mph minimum free flow cannot be maintained.)

I'll never understand how people would even consider another deal with Cintra for the 77 South rebuild.

Couldn't the state just start widening I-77 in smaller sections which will take several years and expect more funding to come along for the final segment later on?

* * * * * * *

I've been trying to contact the appropriate state officials to suggest raising NC's state gas tax which with the storm damage every other year decimating already limited annual funding.

Plus gas in NC is often cheaper today than in SC and GA. Look at the difference with GA:

GA State Gas Tax:

34 cents per gallon
18,000 miles or 35,000 lane miles

NC State Gas Tax:

41 cents per gallon
80,000+ miles

7 cents per gallon more for 40,000 miles of additional maintenance responsibility.

I wish someone could get the right people to consider that NC is falling behind other states who are collecting more now.

@Rothman The I-77 project is not subject to being swapped in the Charlotte MPO priority list.  It's a Statewide project, and isn't subject to regional/local funding limits (the MPO does have to have the project on its list for Federal reasons, IIRC.)  As the project was requested using toll money (either state-run or 3P) a change to the funding source would typically have it re-submitted for priority.  Money outside the usual NCDOT funding mechanisms (I'm including toll revenue here for the sake of discussion) do increase the chance of a project being rated higher and/or sooner.

*shrug*

In my environment, this situation would lead to NCDOT having more flexibility in terms of when the project would actually occur, not less.

But, I come from a state where the DOT always has the nuclear option when it comes to MPO negotiations: Only providing to the MPO what is federally required.  Granted, that is if the DOT is willing to deal with any aftermath.

Anyway, if a funding scheme falls apart in NY, it is the State that holds all the cards in terms of how the project is repackaged, if that is even desired.  You just go to the MPO and get the project amended on the TIP any which may you want.  If it's above and beyond any suballocation to the MPO, all the better, since it doesn't count towards their fiscal constraint with FHWA.

If the MPO ever refused to add a project to their TIP -- yoink.  Funds flow through the DOT or whatever toll money here to the MPO and the faucet can get turned off.  And then, if the project is popular, you blame the MPO for mucking things up and so on and so forth.

Anyway, if NC legislatively sends state money directly to MPOs bypassing NCDOT...that's just beyond stupid.  MPOs exist to manage federal funds in metropolitan areas, not state.

[Rothman]

Just saw the article headline that the City will be on the hook for the $64m.  Man, NC somehow legislated that into their budget ("If you oppose it and cause NCDOT or whoever to kill the project and trigger a reimbursement, you're on the hook to reimburse the State")?

Wonder if the City could sue over this.  I take it since the MPO was so involved some federal funding was involved.  City could argue the State is circumventing NEPA and other federal regulations by essentially not allowing them to oppose the project.

[Plutonic Panda]

If they need to just put it back on their plan and build the project.

[jdunlop]

Just saw the article headline that the City will be on the hook for the $64m.  Man, NC somehow legislated that into their budget ("If you oppose it and cause NCDOT or whoever to kill the project and trigger a reimbursement, you're on the hook to reimburse the State")?

Wonder if the City could sue over this.  I take it since the MPO was so involved some federal funding was involved.  City could argue the State is circumventing NEPA and other federal regulations by essentially not allowing them to oppose the project.

Besides being a blue city in a state with a red legislature (or probably because of) the basis of the bill amendment is that the MPO requested the project, and then opposed it after $60M of design/planning work was done.

[Rothman]

Just saw the article headline that the City will be on the hook for the $64m.  Man, NC somehow legislated that into their budget ("If you oppose it and cause NCDOT or whoever to kill the project and trigger a reimbursement, you're on the hook to reimburse the State")?

Wonder if the City could sue over this.  I take it since the MPO was so involved some federal funding was involved.  City could argue the State is circumventing NEPA and other federal regulations by essentially not allowing them to oppose the project.

Besides being a blue city in a state with a red legislature (or probably because of) the basis of the bill amendment is that the MPO requested the project, and then opposed it after $60M of design/planning work was done.

This whole NC idea that the MPO is more than just a committee of project sponsors is foreign to me.  The MPO does not equate to just the City of Charlotte, but all project sponsors within its metropolitan area.  So when I see a headline that says "City," I don't equate that with an MPO (NYMTC's NYC TCC notwithstanding ).

[jdunlop]

Just saw the article headline that the City will be on the hook for the $64m.  Man, NC somehow legislated that into their budget ("If you oppose it and cause NCDOT or whoever to kill the project and trigger a reimbursement, you're on the hook to reimburse the State")?

Wonder if the City could sue over this.  I take it since the MPO was so involved some federal funding was involved.  City could argue the State is circumventing NEPA and other federal regulations by essentially not allowing them to oppose the project.

Besides being a blue city in a state with a red legislature (or probably because of) the basis of the bill amendment is that the MPO requested the project, and then opposed it after $60M of design/planning work was done.

This whole NC idea that the MPO is more than just a committee of project sponsors is foreign to me.  The MPO does not equate to just the City of Charlotte, but all project sponsors within its metropolitan area.  So when I see a headline that says "City," I don't equate that with an MPO (NYMTC's NYC TCC notwithstanding ).

When I say "Charlotte MPO", it really means "Charlotte AREA" MPO, which includes the other municipalities in Mecklenburg County as well as those in union, Cabarrus and Gaston County (I may be missing one or two further out.)  Sorry if that was confusing things.  In the case of I-77 project, it was mainly the City of Charlotte that opposed it; others (Monroe for instance) went along with them until the payback bill was introduced and then they reversed their negative vote.

 It is my understanding that a local MPO must include a federally funded project in their list for funding to be allowed.  NC MPOs do manage some funding/projects independent of the State DOT.

[Rothman]

Just saw the article headline that the City will be on the hook for the $64m.  Man, NC somehow legislated that into their budget ("If you oppose it and cause NCDOT or whoever to kill the project and trigger a reimbursement, you're on the hook to reimburse the State")?

Wonder if the City could sue over this.  I take it since the MPO was so involved some federal funding was involved.  City could argue the State is circumventing NEPA and other federal regulations by essentially not allowing them to oppose the project.

Besides being a blue city in a state with a red legislature (or probably because of) the basis of the bill amendment is that the MPO requested the project, and then opposed it after $60M of design/planning work was done.

This whole NC idea that the MPO is more than just a committee of project sponsors is foreign to me.  The MPO does not equate to just the City of Charlotte, but all project sponsors within its metropolitan area.  So when I see a headline that says "City," I don't equate that with an MPO (NYMTC's NYC TCC notwithstanding ).

When I say "Charlotte MPO", it really means "Charlotte AREA" MPO, which includes the other municipalities in Mecklenburg County as well as those in union, Cabarrus and Gaston County (I may be missing one or two further out.)  Sorry if that was confusing things.  In the case of I-77 project, it was mainly the City of Charlotte that opposed it; others (Monroe for instance) went along with them until the payback bill was introduced and then they reversed their negative vote.

 It is my understanding that a local MPO must include a federally funded project in their list for funding to be allowed.  NC MPOs do manage some funding/projects independent of the State DOT.

Now you are speaking my language.  Still interesting how the reimbursement falls in the City's responsibility.

[architect77]

Just saw the article headline that the City will be on the hook for the $64m.  Man, NC somehow legislated that into their budget ("If you oppose it and cause NCDOT or whoever to kill the project and trigger a reimbursement, you're on the hook to reimburse the State")?

Wonder if the City could sue over this.  I take it since the MPO was so involved some federal funding was involved.  City could argue the State is circumventing NEPA and other federal regulations by essentially not allowing them to oppose the project.

Besides being a blue city in a state with a red legislature (or probably because of) the basis of the bill amendment is that the MPO requested the project, and then opposed it after $60M of design/planning work was done.

This whole NC idea that the MPO is more than just a committee of project sponsors is foreign to me.  The MPO does not equate to just the City of Charlotte, but all project sponsors within its metropolitan area.  So when I see a headline that says "City," I don't equate that with an MPO (NYMTC's NYC TCC notwithstanding ).

When I say "Charlotte MPO", it really means "Charlotte AREA" MPO, which includes the other municipalities in Mecklenburg County as well as those in union, Cabarrus and Gaston County (I may be missing one or two further out.)  Sorry if that was confusing things.  In the case of I-77 project, it was mainly the City of Charlotte that opposed it; others (Monroe for instance) went along with them until the payback bill was introduced and then they reversed their negative vote.

 It is my understanding that a local MPO must include a federally funded project in their list for funding to be allowed.  NC MPOs do manage some funding/projects independent of the State DOT.

Now you are speaking my language.  Still interesting how the reimbursement falls in the City's responsibility.

The republican-led state legislature's top officials all seem to be from places near Charlotte and the Western half of the state, just sayin'.

I do not support this proposed project as is, because to me the bulk of the high cost which necessitates another foreign lender agreement lies in so much concrete infrastructure to accommodate transitioning for multiple elevations. The renderings I saw showed crazy dual lanes that seemed to be zigging and zagging to access the upper lanes and it looks as though drivers would always be having to pay careful attention to the lanes angling to and from the general purpose lanes.

I would like to see all of the lanes stay on the ground and just try to pay more so property owners do what's best for the city's residents and let go of their properties for a less expensive and more value driven widening project.

But they won't ever do that because people decided that all eminent domain happened only to minorities' projects last century and they must resist that now no matter how much sense it makes for the city.

I wish they would sell for above market rate but am glad anyone is rejecting the proposed plan as is.

I think the state is just miffed after working on detailed plans for I-77 for 2 years and receiving approvals from the community all the way up until the 11th hour. For the engineers that designed the project in house for a significant chunk of time, all of their efforts seem to have been for nothing.

I can't believe locals would ever consider another loan from this foreign lender. But that deluxe I-85 alone for Charlotte is unrivaled anywhere else in the state and I-485 also is nicer than anything throughout the rest of the state, so it's understandable why it will be decades before the area is up for major funding again.

I repeat on every thread and Facebook to anyone that the NC gas tax needs to be increased significantly. 41 cents per gallon for 80,000 miles of roads is way too low and near the mean for what other states collect, 5 cts gallon up to 70 cts gallon.