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Author Topic: US National Parks Highways (in dev)  (Read 9276 times)

english si

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US National Parks Highways (in dev)
« on: November 05, 2015, 04:21:07 PM »

This thread is about the proposed usanp system on Travel Mapping.

Scope
This system started as a way of including the highways in Yellowstone NP (which aren't US routes, though dilly-dallying over this system for 5 and a half years has meant that they remained US routes on CHM), but there's clearly more routes.

Currently I have the following routes pencilled in for inclusion (with route files made that can be seen here):

Yellowstone NP
  • Grand Loop Road
  • North Entrance Road
  • Northeast Entrance Road
  • East Entrance Road
  • South Entrance Road
  • West Entrance Road
  • Norris Canyon Road
National Park Service maintained Parkways
  • Blue Ridge Parkway
  • Natchez Trace Parkway
  • Colonial Parkway (in the Jamestown/Williamsburg area)
  • George Washington Memorial Parkway (along the west side of the Potomac)
  • Clara Barton Parkway (along the east side of the Potomac)
  • Rock Creek and Potomac Parkway (in western DC)
  • Suitland Parkway (SW out of DC)
  • Baltimore-Washington Parkway
  • Foothills Parkway (along north of the Great Smokey Mountains)
  • John D. Rockefeller, Jr. Memorial Parkway (US89/191/287 between Yellowstone and Grand Teton NPs)
  • Skyline Drive (Blue Ridge Pkwy extension)
Other
  • Going-to-the-Sun Road, Glacier NP (only road across park)
  • Fall River Road, Rocky Mountain NP (old route across part of the park)
  • Trail Ridge Road, Rocky Mountain NP (US34 across the park)

Obviously there are others that might be included, and some of these might not be needed because they merely duplicate other routes, or fall better into another system.

Any roads that ought to be added? Any routes that ought not to be?
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Re: US National Parks Highways (in dev)
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2015, 04:42:01 PM »

A few quick comments (one already noted in e-mail):

-- route name VA GWMemPkwyFtH => VA GWMemPkwyMtV -- while there is an obscure Fort Hunt neighborhood along the route, Mt. Vernon is the far more famous destination at its southern end.

-- in DC GWMemPkwy, waypoint VA27 => WasBlvd -- VA 27 probably doesn't extend into the part of DC west of the Potomac River. Dave's draft VA 27 route file has the route ending short of the VA/DC line, while Mapmikey's Virginia Highways site has it ending right at the DC line but not reaching the parkway,

-- in Colorado, add ParkEntRd (and rename the US36 waypoint on TraRidRd accordingly), to account for the part of (pseudo?) US 36 within Rocky Mountain NP.

-- in DC and MD, maybe add Beach Drive within NPS-maintained Rock Creek Park 00 though that would make the usanp route set a bit Washington DC-centric, and definitely should get lower priority than the connecting Rock Creek Parkway.

-- in VA, maybe add the part of Spout Run Parkway north of Lorcom Lane in Arlington (south of there, it's VA 124), but it's pretty short and the above DC-centricity comment applies here too. At least change the SprRunPkwy point on the GW Parkway => SpoRunPkwy.

I was going to suggest, in Maryland, adding the Cabin John Parkway connector between I-495 and the Clara Barton Parkway. But it seems not to be NPS maintained, and moreover seems to be technically unsigned I-495X, so it might be better added to usai than to usanp.

« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 05:12:17 PM by oscar »
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oscar

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Re: US National Parks Highways (in dev)
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2015, 06:06:03 PM »

One caution on numbered routes supposedly passing through national parks (such as US 34 through Rocky Mountain NP, which I had earlier mentioned as a candidate for this route set):  Not all highways passing through national parks are NPS-maintained.  Some exceptions:  CA 190 and CA 178 in Death Valley National Park, and HI 11 through Hawaii Volcanoes National Park.  At least for CA 190 and CA 178 (and indeed for I-40 through a national park in Arizona), the highways were there first, before the parks were established or expanded across the highways.

OTOH, in California CA 120 is defined by statute to extend to the western boundary of Yosemite NP, and restart on the other side. Aside from suggesting yet more changes to usaca (not just a split for CA 120, but also truncations of CA 41 and CA 140, a short truncation of CA 180, and possibly a split of CA 89 at Lassen Volcanic NP), that suggests that Tioga Pass Rd. maybe other Yosemite entrance roads, and perhaps Lassen Peak Highway through Lassen Volcanic NP, should be added to usanp.

The bottom line is whether national park roads should be included in usanp may depend on whether the respective states consider their national park roads to be part of their state highway systems. That is more likely for the more recently-created national parks.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 07:14:33 PM by oscar »
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Re: US National Parks Highways (in dev)
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2015, 07:26:03 PM »

Random question: what color are you considering for these on the maps?
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Re: US National Parks Highways (in dev)
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2015, 07:50:16 PM »

For VA ColPkwy, the point marked "ToVA132" should be labeled "VA132Y".

Yes, VA 132Y is signed: https://www.google.com/maps/@37.2806784,-76.70247,3a,43.5y,182.07h,86.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfTq_aKP8hwyFw6U0-yJONQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
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Mapmikey

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Re: US National Parks Highways (in dev)
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2015, 08:00:29 PM »


I was going to suggest, in Maryland, adding the Cabin John Parkway connector between I-495 and the Clara Barton Parkway. But it seems not to be NPS maintained, and moreover seems to be technically unsigned I-495X, so it might be better added to usai than to usanp.





I have seen a map that shows this as I-495X and there is definitely a BEGIN STATE MAINTENANCE sign at the south end of I-495X beginning from WB Clara Barton Pkwy...

https://goo.gl/maps/HE7c8FpmyaB2

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I-495X in Maryland (was: US National Parks Highways (in dev))
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2015, 09:37:05 PM »

The MDRoads site agrees that I-495X is official. CHM's data and ours include unsigned Interstates, so adding it to our data would be consistent with past practice.

I'll put in a pull request to add MD I-495X to the usai system, as soon as I finish up with adding state business routes to the draft usaca system.
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Re: I-495X in Maryland (was: US National Parks Highways (in dev))
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2015, 11:35:48 PM »

The MDRoads site agrees that I-495X is official. CHM's data and ours include unsigned Interstates, so adding it to our data would be consistent with past practice.

I'll put in a pull request to add MD I-495X to the usai system, as soon as I finish up with adding state business routes to the draft usaca system.

However, is it 'official' in the eyes of the FHWA?

english si

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Re: US National Parks Highways (in dev)
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2015, 05:38:26 AM »

-- route name VA GWMemPkwyFtH => VA GWMemPkwyMtV -- while there is an obscure Fort Hunt neighborhood along the route, Mt. Vernon is the far more famous destination at its southern end.
I've dealt with that.
Quote
-- in DC GWMemPkwy, waypoint VA27 => WasBlvd -- VA 27 probably doesn't extend into the part of DC west of the Potomac River. Dave's draft VA 27 route file has the route ending short of the VA/DC line, while Mapmikey's Virginia Highways site has it ending right at the DC line but not reaching the parkway,
That's an error from copying the usasf route and then not double checking labels after noticing that it crosses into DC for a bit.
Quote
-- in Colorado, add ParkEntRd (and rename the US36 waypoint on TraRidRd accordingly), to account for the part of (pseudo?) US 36 within Rocky Mountain NP.
Both US routes are signed at Deer Ridge Junction and neither have a gap in route log. Both are NPS maintained though.
Quote
DC-centricity comment
If that's where routes tend to be, then that's where routes tend to be.
Random question: what color are you considering for these on the maps?
Brown. Other suggestions welcome.
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english si

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Re: US National Parks Highways (in dev)
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2015, 05:45:26 AM »

One caution on numbered routes supposedly passing through national parks (such as US 34 through Rocky Mountain NP, which I had earlier mentioned as a candidate for this route set):  Not all highways passing through national parks are NPS-maintained.
Indeed, and there's the question of whether NPS-maintained routes like US34 through Rocky Mountain NP ought to have a route file added to usanp, when they are covered already.
Quote
possibly a split of CA 89 at Lassen Volcanic NP
NPS site says: "Lassen National Park Highway (The portion of Highway 89 which extends through the park, 30 miles)."
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Re: US National Parks Highways (in dev)
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2015, 12:21:19 PM »

The MDRoads site agrees that I-495X is official. CHM's data and ours include unsigned Interstates, so adding it to our data would be consistent with past practice.

I'll put in a pull request to add MD I-495X to the usai system, as soon as I finish up with adding state business routes to the draft usaca system.

However, is it 'official' in the eyes of the FHWA?
No. Neither is the east part of I-695 Baltimore.
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Re: US National Parks Highways (in dev)
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2015, 12:28:00 PM »

Whatever the Interstate status of the Cabin John Parkway, it seems clear enough that it doesn't belong in USANP.
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oscar

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Re: US National Parks Highways (in dev)
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2015, 01:54:40 PM »

Quote
possibly a split of CA 89 at Lassen Volcanic NP
NPS site says: "Lassen National Park Highway (The portion of Highway 89 which extends through the park, 30 miles)."

Yeah, I've seen conflicting information I'll need to sort through.

The statutory definition of CA 89 is not as clear as that for CA 120. CA 89 has a segment ending at Lassen Volcanic NP (but not specifically at its southern boundary), and the next segment starting at CA 44 on the other side of the park. CA 120 ends specifically at Yosemite's western boundary and restarts at the park's eastern boundary, which suggests that the park segment of Tioga Pass Rd. should go into USANP rather than USACA.

CA 180 is kind of like CA 89. CA 180 clearly by statute ends at the Cedar Grove boundary of Kings Canyon NP, but before it gets there the Generals Highway passes through the Grant Grove section of that park. The statutory definition is not specific on whether CA 180 includes or excludes the part of the Generals Highway within the Grant Grove park area. Also, GMSV shows at least one Caltrans-spec CA 180 route marker within the park, around the junction with what used to be CA 198 (signed as "To CA 198"). I'll leave CA 180 intact for now.

EDIT: Quick look at GMSV indicates no end signage on either side of Lassen Volcanic NP, or of the Grant Grove section of Kings Canyon NP. But there is an End CA 180 sign at the Cedar Grove boundary for Kings Canyon NP, which is the statutory east end of CA 180. For CA 120, for which the statutory definition is clearer about the route not including anything within Yosemite NP, there are some obviously non-Caltrans markers within the park for CA 120, as well as for CA 140 and CA 41 (despite an End CA 41 route marker just south of the park boundary), but Caltrans-spec markers appear to be only outside the park.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 12:35:21 AM by oscar »
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Re: US National Parks Highways (in dev)
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2015, 09:48:20 PM »

The MDRoads site agrees that I-495X is official. CHM's data and ours include unsigned Interstates, so adding it to our data would be consistent with past practice.

I'll put in a pull request to add MD I-495X to the usai system, as soon as I finish up with adding state business routes to the draft usaca system.

However, is it 'official' in the eyes of the FHWA?
No. Neither is the east part of I-695 Baltimore.

Well, if we were to add 'I-495X', then we would have to add 'I-480N' in Cleveland, even though it isn't official as well.

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Re: US National Parks Highways (in dev)
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2015, 11:01:08 PM »

Random question: what color are you considering for these on the maps?
Brown. Other suggestions welcome.

Brown makes sense, although it would be nice if they could stand out from the state systems. Definitely not teal or red or blue. Maybe gold, since that was in use in CHM but has been unused so far here?
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Re: US National Parks Highways (in dev)
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2015, 11:40:16 PM »

Well, if we were to add 'I-495X', then we would have to add 'I-480N' in Cleveland, even though it isn't official as well.

Don't worry about that. FHWA's NHS map viewer shows I-495X as a non-Interstate route, so that idea seems to be going nowhere.
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Re: US National Parks Highways (in dev)
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2015, 11:53:07 PM »

Brown makes sense, although it would be nice if they could stand out from the state systems. Definitely not teal or red or blue. Maybe gold, since that was in use in CHM but has been unused so far here?

CHM used a rather fugly orange for Future Interstates, at least. I don't miss that at all. A more pleasing gold would probably not have enough contrast against a white or pastel background. or worse still overlaid on a Google or OSM map.

There just aren't that many contrasty and distinguishable colors available to us. Four colors (no orange, please!) seems sufficient. But maybe use teal for NPS parkways, to match how we map NY state parkways?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 11:56:30 PM by oscar »
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Re: US National Parks Highways (in dev)
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2015, 08:38:51 AM »

My intent down the road is to make the colors user-configurable.   For now, I'm open to suggestions.  I think the best yet-unused option is a dark purple.  Currently underutilized colors are magenta (usausb) and green (usaib).
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Re: US National Parks Highways (in dev)
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2015, 09:20:01 AM »

My intent down the road is to make the colors user-configurable.   For now, I'm open to suggestions.  I think the best yet-unused option is a dark purple.  Currently underutilized colors are magenta (usausb) and green (usaib).

Green would be good for a route set associated with parks, but since it's currently associated with business interstates that might be confusing. Purple would be a good choice.

Is there a reason we haven't used black (or dark grey) yet? Since there is no equivalent to CHM's blank outline maps, grey wouldn't be confused with borders.

User-configurable colors is a great idea.
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Re: US National Parks Highways (in dev)
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2015, 11:31:39 AM »

User-configurable colors sounds positively lovely.

Personally I'd go and make NPS Parkways and whatever other appurtenant named systems get added the same color that "select named freeways" already is. No need for extra colors and at least in my mind, "roads listed by name rather than number" is all one category.

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Re: US National Parks Highways (in dev)
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2015, 10:28:45 AM »

Quote from: oscar
-- in DC GWMemPkwy, waypoint VA27 => WasBlvd -- VA 27 probably doesn't extend into the part of DC west of the Potomac River. Dave's draft VA 27 route file has the route ending short of the VA/DC line, while Mapmikey's Virginia Highways site has it ending right at the DC line but not reaching the parkway,

Technically correct on the termini.  As for the waypoint, it's signed as VA 27 from the Parkway.  I could see leaving the waypoint as VA27 for that reason.  Or it could be "ToVA27" since 27 doesn't technically begin until you cross the channel.

Quote
I was going to suggest, in Maryland, adding the Cabin John Parkway connector between I-495 and the Clara Barton Parkway. But it seems not to be NPS maintained, and moreover seems to be technically unsigned I-495X, so it might be better added to usai than to usanp.

Piggybacking off what others have already said, Cabin John Pkwy is by definition an unsigned SHA (i.e. state) route.  FHWA doesn't consider it an Interstate...MD SHA by default assigns spurs a letter suffix to whatever route it's a spur from, hence why they consider it "I-495X".
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Re: US National Parks Highways (in dev)
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2015, 10:17:22 PM »

Arches: Main scenic drive
Bryce: Main scenic drive
Canyonlands: Island in the Sky Road
Crater Lake: Rim Road
Death Valley: Badwater Road, North Road
Rainier: Paradise Road
Petrified Forest: Main scenic drive
Zion: Canyon road
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Re: US National Parks Highways (in dev)
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2015, 10:38:11 AM »

Whatever the Interstate status of the Cabin John Parkway, it seems clear enough that it doesn't belong in USANP.
I've just made a pull request adding it to USANF (and Jim has just merged in my pull request in the few minutes it has taken me to make this post)
Zion: Canyon road
Done, and I'll work my through the others in a minute. I'm holding off on CA as Oscar is better equipped to research that.

I, myself, have no problem with other people adding routes, making changes themselves, etc - especially when they are in regions they maintain.

I have added to this system, temporarily, some signed Historic US routes, as we haven't worked out where they will be put.
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Re: US National Parks Highways (in dev)
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2015, 10:39:40 AM »

The western SD/NE WY parks are pretty well covered, but you could throw these in for continuity purposes (or not)

Devils Tower: main road through monument (which is NOT WY 110, contrary to what some maps would have you think)
Jewel Cave: spur road to visitor center from US 16
Wind Cave: connector road to visitor center (cuts off a loop of US 385)
Badlands: Badlands Loop Road is already SD 240, but could be added in the usanp system (like US 34 through Rocky Mountain).

If you really wanted to dig in, Wind Cave actually has numbered roads (NP 5 and 6) (they're gravel and don't go anywhere important, though).

Custer State Park also has numbered routes, but I don't know if those should go in a system and if they did go in where they would be.
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Re: US National Parks Highways (in dev)
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2015, 11:31:43 AM »

Other suggestions:

Main road through Everglades NP to Flamingo...
Loop road through Acadia NP (there is also one of these off of ME 186)
Big Bend NP loop between TX 118 and US 385
Main road through Mesa Verde NP

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