Interstate 81 in Syracuse

[Plutonic Panda]

Of course it's your turn you'd never miss it!

[Beltway]

It makes me sick to my stomach to see supposedly highway knowledgeable people championing this project.

in before @Rothman says it:
[Technicolor yawn ]

We see how regional congestion seriously increased when a 32,000 AADT freeway was severed in Baltimore -- and traffic didn't just go "poof!"
Now we're talking about severing an 80,000 AADT urban freeway.

My turn:
*yawn*

Your turn:
Ralph!

[Molandfreak]

It makes me sick to my stomach to see supposedly highway knowledgeable people championing this project.

in before @Rothman says it:
[Technicolor yawn ]

We see how regional congestion seriously increased when a 32,000 AADT freeway was severed in Baltimore -- and traffic didn't just go "poof!"
Now we're talking about severing an 80,000 AADT urban freeway.

My turn:
*yawn*

Your turn:
Ralph!

[Beltway]

I respect the modeling effort behind the FEIS, but I remain unconvinced by its assumptions. The claim that ~80,000 AADT can be rerouted with "no effect" on the highway system, strains both network logic and precedent.

I looked at the FEIS link that Rothmann posted a few weeks ago. I was disappointed to see that instead of a 6-lane boulevard or pair of one-way 3-lane streets, and high-capacity ramps connecting that to I-81 at either end, proposed there are just the ordinary 4-lane streets and one-lane connectors to I-81.

So the ~80,000 AADT is just going to go "poof" with little or no effect on the highway system? I-481 is  mostly 4 lanes (2 each way) and already largely spoken for capacity wise.

Likeisaid, the severing of MD I-695 East with its former ~32,000 AADT has increased congestion all over the network and Baltimoreans are complaining about it constantly. So are they overreacting?

Keywords: bafflegab, baloney, vomic, Ipecac, Ralph, Huey, jabberwocky, abominable voorheaves

[kalvado]

I respect the modeling effort behind the FEIS, but I remain unconvinced by its assumptions. The claim that ~80,000 AADT can be rerouted with "no effect" on the highway system, strains both network logic and precedent.

I looked at the FEIS link that Rothmann posted a few weeks ago. I was disappointed to see that instead of a 6-lane boulevard or pair of one-way 3-lane streets, and high-capacity ramps connecting that to I-81 at either end, proposed there are just the ordinary 4-lane streets and one-lane connectors to I-81.

So the ~80,000 AADT is just going to go "poof" with little or no effect on the highway system? I-481 is  mostly 4 lanes (2 each way) and already largely spoken for capacity wise.

Likeisaid, the severing of MD I-695 East with its former ~32,000 AADT has increased congestion all over the network and Baltimoreans are complaining about it constantly. So are they overreacting?

Keywords: bafflegab, baloney, vomic, Ipecac, Ralph, Huey, jabberwocky, abominable voorheaves

[ElishaGOtis]

I respect the modeling effort behind the FEIS, but I remain unconvinced by its assumptions. The claim that ~80,000 AADT can be rerouted with "no effect" on the highway system, strains both network logic and precedent.

I looked at the FEIS link that Rothmann posted a few weeks ago. I was disappointed to see that instead of a 6-lane boulevard or pair of one-way 3-lane streets, and high-capacity ramps connecting that to I-81 at either end, proposed there are just the ordinary 4-lane streets and one-lane connectors to I-81.

So the ~80,000 AADT is just going to go "poof" with little or no effect on the highway system? I-481 is  mostly 4 lanes (2 each way) and already largely spoken for capacity wise.

Likeisaid, the severing of MD I-695 East with its former ~32,000 AADT has increased congestion all over the network and Baltimoreans are complaining about it constantly. So are they overreacting?

Keywords: bafflegab, baloney, vomic, Ipecac, Ralph, Huey, jabberwocky, abominable voorheaves

Ride a bike or something idk

[The Ghostbuster]

Would it be possible to widen Interstate 481 (future Interstate 81) to six lanes? With the 81 destination being rerouted to the bypass, the corridor may require an additional lane in each direction.

[vdeane]

Keep in mind the official route switchover won't happen for a while due to alleged needed congressional action.

Congressional action?  That's odd, given that interstate re-designations have happened before even without Congress being involved.  Has the system come to that after years of Congress designating numbers?  Or is this due to certain policies from Trump's FHWA?

(personal opinion)

It makes me sick to my stomach to see supposedly highway knowledgeable people championing this project.

in before @Rothman says it:
[Technicolor yawn ]

We see how regional congestion seriously increased when a 32,000 AADT freeway was severed in Baltimore -- and traffic didn't just go "poof!"

Now we're talking about severing an 80,000 AADT urban freeway.

If you check the Traffic Data Viewer, you'd see that the AADT on the viaduct is only 50k.  Baltimore also had more existing congestion, while the only congestion Syracuse has outside of construction delays is the traffic lining up to use exit 18 on I-81 south (which will be more spread out once construction is concluded).  And the alternates to I-695 haven't been improved, while I-481 is.  In short, it's not nearly as similar as you claim.

[ElishaGOtis]

Keep in mind the official route switchover won't happen for a while due to alleged needed congressional action.

Congressional action?  That's odd, given that interstate re-designations have happened before even without Congress being involved.  Has the system come to that after years of Congress designating numbers?  Or is this due to certain policies from Trump's FHWA?

(personal opinion)

It makes me sick to my stomach to see supposedly highway knowledgeable people championing this project.

in before @Rothman says it:
[Technicolor yawn ]

We see how regional congestion seriously increased when a 32,000 AADT freeway was severed in Baltimore -- and traffic didn't just go "poof!"

Now we're talking about severing an 80,000 AADT urban freeway.

If you check the Traffic Data Viewer, you'd see that the AADT on the viaduct is only 50k.  Baltimore also had more existing congestion, while the only congestion Syracuse has outside of construction delays is the traffic lining up to use exit 18 on I-81 south (which will be more spread out once construction is concluded).  And the alternates to I-695 haven't been improved, while I-481 is.  In short, it's not nearly as similar as you claim.

Imagine 30-50k extra vehicles being dumped onto a single 4-lane freeway.   

[Rothman]

Keep in mind the official route switchover won't happen for a while due to alleged needed congressional action.

Congressional action?  That's odd, given that interstate re-designations have happened before even without Congress being involved.  Has the system come to that after years of Congress designating numbers?  Or is this due to certain policies from Trump's FHWA?

(personal opinion)

There's a reason why I used the term "alleged."  All I can say is that is my understanding of the current position of NYSDOT and the I-81 Viaduct Project Team on what needs to happen.

(personal opinion emphasized)

[Beltway]

We see how regional congestion seriously increased when a 32,000 AADT freeway was severed in Baltimore -- and traffic didn't just go "poof!"
Now we're talking about severing an 80,000 AADT urban freeway.

If you check the Traffic Data Viewer, you'd see that the AADT on the viaduct is only 50k.  Baltimore also had more existing congestion, while the only congestion Syracuse has outside of construction delays is the traffic lining up to use exit 18 on I-81 south (which will be more spread out once construction is concluded).  And the alternates to I-695 haven't been improved, while I-481 is.  In short, it's not nearly as similar as you claim.

Imagine 30-50k extra vehicles being dumped onto a single 4-lane freeway.   

Actually as high as ~67,000 AADT per that interface, between I-481 South and I-690.

Baltimore is a major metro of 2.5 million population but it has an expansive highway system. I-695 West with 6 to 8 lanes, and the I-95/I-895/B-W Parkway couplet providing 12 freeway lanes between I-495 and well northeast of the city.

The reason why I-695 East could be as low as ~32,000 AADT was because of that expansive system.

Would it be possible to widen Interstate 481 (future Interstate 81) to six lanes? With the 81 destination being rerouted to the bypass, the corridor may require an additional lane in each direction.

The median space exists for 2 lanes and 2 full shoulders. Of course widening 16 miles of freeway along with several major bridges would be another considerable expense, perhaps $800 million or more at today's per mile rates.

[Rothman]

Would it be possible to widen Interstate 481 (future Interstate 81) to six lanes? With the 81 destination being rerouted to the bypass, the corridor may require an additional lane in each direction.

Widening the entire corridor was not found to be necessary.  The ongoing improvements to the northern and southern interchanges, along with a segment from about I-90 south to I-690 (including replacing the bridges over the CSX DeWitt Yard), were found to be adequate.

(personal opinion emphasized)

[Beltway]

Would it be possible to widen Interstate 481 (future Interstate 81) to six lanes? With the 81 destination being rerouted to the bypass, the corridor may require an additional lane in each direction.

Widening the entire corridor was not found to be necessary.  The ongoing improvements to the northern and southern interchanges, along with a segment from about I-90 south to I-690 (including replacing the bridges over the CSX DeWitt Yard), were found to be adequate.
(personal opinion emphasized)

Good luck -- I-481 already carries up to ~43,000 AADT

[Rothman]

Would it be possible to widen Interstate 481 (future Interstate 81) to six lanes? With the 81 destination being rerouted to the bypass, the corridor may require an additional lane in each direction.

Widening the entire corridor was not found to be necessary.  The ongoing improvements to the northern and southern interchanges, along with a segment from about I-90 south to I-690 (including replacing the bridges over the CSX DeWitt Yard), were found to be adequate.
(personal opinion emphasized)

Good luck -- I-481 already carries up to ~43,000 AADT

[Beltway]

CHECKMATE

[NE2]

[PColumbus73]

The Francis Scott Key Bridge got boring, I see.

[Beltway]

Come on -- you can do better than this.

If you want to cut up, you need to be creative and clever and funny -- or at least -try- to be creative and clever and funny.

[vdeane]

Dear lord, this thread is becoming just like the Key Bridge thread!

We see how regional congestion seriously increased when a 32,000 AADT freeway was severed in Baltimore -- and traffic didn't just go "poof!"
Now we're talking about severing an 80,000 AADT urban freeway.

If you check the Traffic Data Viewer, you'd see that the AADT on the viaduct is only 50k.  Baltimore also had more existing congestion, while the only congestion Syracuse has outside of construction delays is the traffic lining up to use exit 18 on I-81 south (which will be more spread out once construction is concluded).  And the alternates to I-695 haven't been improved, while I-481 is.  In short, it's not nearly as similar as you claim.

Imagine 30-50k extra vehicles being dumped onto a single 4-lane freeway.   

Actually as high as ~67,000 AADT per that interface, between I-481 South and I-690.

Baltimore is a major metro of 2.5 million population but it has an expansive highway system. I-695 West with 6 to 8 lanes, and the I-95/I-895/B-W Parkway couplet providing 12 freeway lanes between I-495 and well northeast of the city.

The reason why I-695 East could be as low as ~32,000 AADT was because of that expansive system.

Would it be possible to widen Interstate 481 (future Interstate 81) to six lanes? With the 81 destination being rerouted to the bypass, the corridor may require an additional lane in each direction.

The median space exists for 2 lanes and 2 full shoulders. Of course widening 16 miles of freeway along with several major bridges would be another considerable expense, perhaps $800 million or more at today's per mile rates.

There are multiple count locations between I-481 and I-690.  Let's look at all of them, not just the highest:
-I-481 to exit 17: 38,573
-Exit 17 to Colvin Street: 41,520
-Colvin Street to exit 18 (Adams Street): 66,372
-Adams Street to I-690 (on the viaduct): 50,825

Let's also take a look within the I-690 interchange:
-I-81 north to I-690 east: 10,371
-I-690 west to I-81 south: 7,077
-I-690 east to I-81 south: 11,789
-I-81 north to I-690 west: 12,922
-I-81 south to I-690 east: 11,807
-I-690 west to I-81 north: 10,847

And a few other ramps:
-I-81 south to Harrison Street (exit 18): 12,245
-Harrison Street/Almond Street (exit 18) to I-81 north: 19,943
I-81 north to Adams Street (exit 18): 7,599
Adams Street (exit 18) to I-81 south: 6,733

What we're seeing here is a decidingly much more local traffic pattern than the picture you are trying to paint.  And quite frankly, the implications that the viaduct needs to be built for traffic that exits before getting to it is hilariously ridiculous - I'm starting to wonder if I should take you as seriously as I take the Harry Potter fanfiction My Immortal.

[PColumbus73]

I'm starting to wonder if I should take you as seriously as I take the Harry Potter fanfiction My Immortal (look it up on TV Tropes if you're curious).

Hello, I'm Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way..."

[Beltway]

What we're seeing here is a decidingly much more local traffic pattern than the picture you are trying to paint.  And quite frankly, the implications that the viaduct needs to be built for traffic that exits before getting to it is hilariously ridiculous - I'm starting to wonder if I should take you as seriously as I take the Harry Potter fanfiction My Immortal.

The numbers don't compuke. A freeway that carries up to ~67,000 AADT taken out of service and its I-81 route being shifted to a bypass that carries up to ~43,000 AADT on 4 lanes (2 each way).

All for righting some putative social wrongs that occurred over 60 years ago.

[cockroachking]

What we're seeing here is a decidingly much more local traffic pattern than the picture you are trying to paint.  And quite frankly, the implications that the viaduct needs to be built for traffic that exits before getting to it is hilariously ridiculous - I'm starting to wonder if I should take you as seriously as I take the Harry Potter fanfiction My Immortal.

The numbers don't compuke. A freeway that carries up to ~67,000 AADT taken out of service and its I-81 route being shifted to a bypass that carries up to ~43,000 AADT on 4 lanes (2 each way).

All for righting some putative social wrongs that occurred over 60 years ago.

AFAICT most of the traffic on the viaduct is either intracity traffic passing from one neighborhood to another or traffic with an origin/destination nearby. Neither group would be significantly impacted by the loss of the freeway. Using parallel streets or the Almond St boulevard will suffice. Most of I-481 is as flat as a pancake (cf. Illinois) with a maximum 11% trucks (at the southern end with a sub 25k AADT), so it can handle a higher AADT than your favorite I-81 in VA. Plus, the higher volume segments are being widened anyway.

(Personal opinion emphasized. I work for a different Region.)

[Beltway]

AFAICT most of the traffic on the viaduct is either intracity traffic passing from one neighborhood to another or traffic with an origin/destination nearby. Neither group would be significantly impacted by the loss of the freeway. Using parallel streets or the Almond St boulevard will suffice. Most of I-481 is as flat as a pancake (cf. Illinois) with a maximum 11% trucks (at the southern end with a sub 25k AADT), so it can handle a higher AADT than your favorite I-81 in VA. Plus, the higher volume segments are being widened anyway.
(Personal opinion emphasized. I work for a different Region.)

The viaduct's ~67,000 AADT is not "mostly intracity." FHWA data show a significant share of through‑traffic and regional freight. Parallel streets and Almond Street cannot absorb that volume without gridlock.

Claim that I‑481 can "handle higher AADT" ignores the math. A bypass carrying ~43,000 AADT on four lanes cannot seamlessly absorb an additional ~67,000. Even with widening, the compuke is obvious: capacity shortfall plus truck percentages.

Saying "only 11% trucks" understates the impact. Heavy vehicles consume disproportionate capacity and degrade flow. A flat alignment doesn't erase the physics of truck platoons.

Comparing Syracuse to Illinois is rhetorical fog. Local geometry, interchange spacing, and traffic mix differ. Flat terrain doesn't equal functional equivalence.

The numbers don't compuke. 67,000 AADT won't vanish into Almond Street or a 43,000‑AADT bypass. Truck percentages matter, and Illinois analogies are fog. Syracuse's viaduct is regional infrastructure, not just neighborhood traffic.

[webny99]

Claim that I‑481 can "handle higher AADT" ignores the math. A bypass carrying ~43,000 AADT on four lanes cannot seamlessly absorb an additional ~67,000. Even with widening, the compuke is obvious: capacity shortfall plus truck percentages.

Most of us here were actually in favor of replacing the viaduct to modern standards, but the notion that an additional 67k or even half of that amount will end up on I-481 is truly laughable.

[The Ghostbuster]

I'm also very interested in seeing how traffic along the surrounding surface streets increases once the viaduct does come down, and all improvements are completed. Some might say the traffic will just "disappear", but I'm not naive enough to believe that.