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Author Topic: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?  (Read 12108 times)

Avalanchez71

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Use the USPS Zip code locator system.  The zip code has nothing to do with what municpality that you reside in.

Take a look at this zip code alone.

Default City Name in ZIP Code™ 55126

Please use the default city whenever possible.

SAINT PAUL MN

Other city names recognized for addresses in 55126

ARDEN HILLS MN

NO OAKS MN

ROSEVILLE MN

SHOREVIEW MN
 
To minimize delivery delays, use the default or recognized city names for this ZIP Code™ rather than the following...

LINO LAKES MN
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jeffandnicole

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Except this taxes 1000s of businesses outside the city limits, since the zip code zones have nothing to do with the city lines at all.  The state's half-assed solution was, "well, save your receipts and then you can mail them to the city and they will refund you the money"  like anyone would do that.

That is crazy, and quite possibly unlawful (do not quote me on that, as I am not a lawyer and definitely not admitted to practice law in West Virginia). With geographic information system (GIS) software and an up-to-date and accurate digital representation of the municipal boundaries, it is quite easy to determine exactly which businesses are subject to that tax and which are not.  IMO, a junior GIS analyst could do that work for the entire state of West Virginia in a week or two (in large part because there are only  a finite number of municipalities in the Mountaineer State).

Hell, I'm sure they knew this info 100 years ago. Its simply a lazyman's way of going about collecting money. Property tax bills no doubt have the lot number and taxes due to the appropriate city, town, or county, and it should simply have been if your business is within the limits of said city, collect the extra 1%. These businesses know if they're within the city limits.
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kphoger

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The city limits might be one thing, but the post office draws it lines totally differently (and, to the extent it is still relevant, landline phone companies draw/drew their lines differently from both).

I work in the telecom industry, and I'm familiar with the landline phone issue.  The divisions are known as rate centers.  You cannot transfer a phone number from one rate center to another.  For example, we have customers who move from one part of Tulsa (OK) to another part of Tulsa and then wonder why they couldn't keep their same phone number.  They moved within the same city and within the same area code, yet they crossed a rate center boundary.  It's happened before that a medical center with multiple phone lines moved literally across the street in northwest Arkansas and had to get all new numbers.  I tell people they may as well have moved to another state, as far as the phone network is concerned.
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Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.

GaryV

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Regarding Brooklyn, I've sometimes been tempted to send something to my cousin using "Brooklyn 9, NY" instead of "11209," just to see whether it gets there.

Pre zip codes, my mom could address mail with "City 5" following the street address and it would get there, provided it was mailed in the city.
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kphoger

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In the 1990s in a 15-bed hospital in the small town of Atwood (KS), my mom once treated a patient from eastern Kansas.  When that person returned home, she wanted to send a thank-you note to my mom but had no idea of her contact information.  So she addressed the envelope "Nurse Sue / Atwood, KS".  It got there.

Of course, that was the town where, if the UPS guy didn't find you at home, he'd attempt to deliver the package at your place of work instead.
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Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.

Bitmapped

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Re: zip codes and addresses.   WV just (in spite of a pretty clear Constitutional provision that specifically prohibits it) allowed cities to start charging a sales tax.  The mechanism that they used was that the state changed the sales tax rate for zip codes associated with the various cities, so it just shows up as one tax (7% rather than 6%) and the merchant pays the state, which then (after deducting a 0.1% for its trouble) pays 0.9% to the city. 

Except this taxes 1000s of businesses outside the city limits, since the zip code zones have nothing to do with the city lines at all.  The state's half-assed solution was, "well, save your receipts and then you can mail them to the city and they will refund you the money"  like anyone would do that.

That is crazy, and quite possibly unlawful (do not quote me on that, as I am not a lawyer and definitely not admitted to practice law in West Virginia). With geographic information system (GIS) software and an up-to-date and accurate digital representation of the municipal boundaries, it is quite easy to determine exactly which businesses are subject to that tax and which are not.  IMO, a junior GIS analyst could do that work for the entire state of West Virginia in a week or two (in large part because there are only  a finite number of municipalities in the Mountaineer State).

Hell, I'm sure they knew this info 100 years ago. Its simply a lazyman's way of going about collecting money. Property tax bills no doubt have the lot number and taxes due to the appropriate city, town, or county, and it should simply have been if your business is within the limits of said city, collect the extra 1%. These businesses know if they're within the city limits.

SP Cook's explanation is not accurate.

Many businesses thought that because their mailing address was Charleston or wherever, they were in Charleston. They began collecting municipal sales tax on their own even though they should not have. See http://www.tristateupdate.com/story/23728989/people-being-unfairly-taxed-in-south-charleston-mayor-says for an example. While businesses should know where they are located, apparently many of them did not.

Businesses are responsible for determining which portion of their sales, if any, are subject to municipal sales tax and handling them accordingly. An information website is at http://tax.wv.gov/Business/SalesAndUseTax/LocalSalesAndUseTax/Pages/LocalSalesAndUseTax.aspx . The sales tax form that businesses must file with the state is here: http://tax.wv.gov/Documents/TaxForms/2015/cst200cu.pdf . Municipal sales taxes are listed on the same form and paid to the state, who distributes them to cities.
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1995hoo

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In the 1990s in a 15-bed hospital in the small town of Atwood (KS), my mom once treated a patient from eastern Kansas.  When that person returned home, she wanted to send a thank-you note to my mom but had no idea of her contact information.  So she addressed the envelope "Nurse Sue / Atwood, KS".  It got there.

Of course, that was the town where, if the UPS guy didn't find you at home, he'd attempt to deliver the package at your place of work instead.

Walter Gretzky's biography of his son said kids would send envelopes addressed only as "Wayne Gretzky, Kanada," and they'd make it to Edmonton correctly.
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"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

kendancy66

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The "private roads" thing surprises a lot of people. I recall there was a big stink out near Fairfax City when the person who, at the time, owned the section of Nutley Street between US-50 and US-29 constructed some big speed bumps. People went ballistic complaining to the Commonwealth and to Fairfax County and were shocked when they learned the road was privately-owned. I don't recall the details of how it was eventually resolved other than that the owner removed the speed bumps in return for some kind of government concession (I think VDOT took over maintenance).

I found an excerpt from a news article online, but I don't have access to the whole thing because I don't want to pay: https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1314617.html
I remember those speed bumps on that road. Isnt that the same road that has the 5 digit route number?
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1995hoo

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It's one of many roads with a five-digit route number, though in that particular case it's only that one segment (north of US-29, it's VA-243 up to Route 123 in Vienna).
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"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

SP Cook

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SP Cook's explanation is not accurate.

Many businesses thought that because their mailing address was Charleston or wherever, they were in Charleston.


That is simply incorrect.  All businesses know exactly what town they have to buy a licenes from and pay B&O taxes to.  The system dunned businesses for difficencies based on zip codes.

The state has YET to fix the problem.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 09:35:29 AM by SP Cook »
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cpzilliacus

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The city of Falls Church is tiny (fortunately, since it's all a speed trap), but Falls Church postal addresses extend well beyond city limits and indeed reach west of the Beltway (for example, Inova Fairfax Hospital claims a Falls Church postal address).

My late aunt and uncle lived on Pinetree Terrace (their part of Pinetree Terrace was a dead end) in the Lake Barcroft area (near Bailey's Crossroads) of Fairfax County (closest arterial was Va. 244, Columbia Pike). They always had a Falls Church mail address, even though Lake Barcroft is not all that close to the City of Falls Church (almost 4 miles from the Falls Church to Pinetree Terrace).
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kendancy66

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It's one of many roads with a five-digit route number, though in that particular case it's only that one segment (north of US-29, it's VA-243 up to Route 123 in Vienna).
I was only talking about the section from the Micro Center to US-50.  I did not realize that there were more 5 digit route numbers though.  I only recall seeing that one in Fairfax.
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kendancy66

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I think the comment about Falls Church indicates confusion about the USPS assigning Falls Church addresses to places in Fairfax County. That doesn't mean those addresses are in the City of Falls Church, though—just like the Post Office says my address in Alexandria, but I live in (and pay taxes and vote in) Fairfax County.

The city of Falls Church is tiny (fortunately, since it's all a speed trap), but Falls Church postal addresses extend well beyond city limits and indeed reach west of the Beltway (for example, Inova Fairfax Hospital claims a Falls Church postal address).
Thanks for verifying that my son was born in Falls Church, instead of Fairfax.
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froggie

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Quote
I was only talking about the section from the Micro Center to US-50.  I did not realize that there were more 5 digit route numbers though.  I only recall seeing that one in Fairfax.

As of 2011, there were several hundred 5-digit routes scattered all over Fairfax County.  I know some of them are signed, but I don't know the status of all of them.  While most are residential roads and/or cul-de-sacs, there are a few besides the south end of Nutley St that are collector or arterial roads.  For example, in 1995hoo's "part of the world", the east end of Kingstowne Blvd is SR 10421, and Walker Ln is SR 10026 (and signed as such).

On a side note, the highest numbered route in 2011 was SR 10657, which is Oak Rock Ct and located near Manassas near VA 28 and Green Trails Blvd.
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oscar

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I think the comment about Falls Church indicates confusion about the USPS assigning Falls Church addresses to places in Fairfax County. That doesn't mean those addresses are in the City of Falls Church, though—just like the Post Office says my address in Alexandria, but I live in (and pay taxes and vote in) Fairfax County.

The city of Falls Church is tiny (fortunately, since it's all a speed trap), but Falls Church postal addresses extend well beyond city limits and indeed reach west of the Beltway (for example, Inova Fairfax Hospital claims a Falls Church postal address).
Thanks for verifying that my son was born in Falls Church, instead of Fairfax.

What place of birth is shown on his birth certificate? Inova Fairfax is well outside Falls Church city limits, but in an unincorporated area of Fairfax County that's not particularly close to Fairfax independent city.

Inova or its predecessor used to have a hospital in or very close to Fairfax city. I don't know if it handled childbirths, before its acute care services (except the emergency room) were closed and consolidated with the current Inova Fairfax hospital.
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Mapmikey

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Quote
On a side note, the highest numbered route in 2011 was SR 10657, which is Oak Rock Ct and located near Manassas near VA 28 and Green Trails Blvd.

The 2015 Fairfax County Traffic Log shows 10657 to still be the highest one.

Many of the 5 digit routes are signed.

I don't have many pics (riding around Northern Virginia for fun is not my thing.  Doing it for my commute is my jam...), but I do have one of 10500 which is off of VA 193:




Aug 2006
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1995hoo

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....

Inova or its predecessor used to have a hospital in or very close to Fairfax city. I don't know if it handled childbirths, before its acute care services (except the emergency room) were closed and consolidated with the current Inova Fairfax hospital.

I believe that would be the former Commonwealth Hospital on Route 123? It's just inside the city limits. I couldn't tell you what services it provided either. I've been there once—I was taken to the ER there the day after my 16th birthday due to an accident at school, though ultimately they transferred me (not by ambulance) to Fairfax Hospital for surgery. I know there's still an ER there today, but it's no longer called Commonwealth.
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"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

cpzilliacus

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Quote
I was only talking about the section from the Micro Center to US-50.  I did not realize that there were more 5 digit route numbers though.  I only recall seeing that one in Fairfax.

As of 2011, there were several hundred 5-digit routes scattered all over Fairfax County.  I know some of them are signed, but I don't know the status of all of them.  While most are residential roads and/or cul-de-sacs, there are a few besides the south end of Nutley St that are collector or arterial roads.  For example, in 1995hoo's "part of the world", the east end of Kingstowne Blvd is SR 10421, and Walker Ln is SR 10026 (and signed as such).

On a side note, the highest numbered route in 2011 was SR 10657, which is Oak Rock Ct and located near Manassas near VA 28 and Green Trails Blvd.

There are a few off of Va. 695 (Idylwood Road) in Merrifield/Pimmit Hills/Falls Church (your choice ;-) ) area of Fairfax County like these.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 01:10:54 PM by cpzilliacus »
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kendancy66

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I think the comment about Falls Church indicates confusion about the USPS assigning Falls Church addresses to places in Fairfax County. That doesn't mean those addresses are in the City of Falls Church, though—just like the Post Office says my address in Alexandria, but I live in (and pay taxes and vote in) Fairfax County.

The city of Falls Church is tiny (fortunately, since it's all a speed trap), but Falls Church postal addresses extend well beyond city limits and indeed reach west of the Beltway (for example, Inova Fairfax Hospital claims a Falls Church postal address).
Thanks for verifying that my son was born in Falls Church, instead of Fairfax.

What place of birth is shown on his birth certificate? Inova Fairfax is well outside Falls Church city limits, but in an unincorporated area of Fairfax County that's not particularly close to Fairfax independent city.

Inova or its predecessor used to have a hospital in or very close to Fairfax city. I don't know if it handled childbirths, before its acute care services (except the emergency room) were closed and consolidated with the current Inova Fairfax hospital.
I was remembering that it was odd to me that Inova Fairfax hospital on Gallows Rd would have a Falls Church address.  I would have assumed it would be Fairfax or something like Annandale which seems closer to the actual location than Falls Church.   I never had really investigated why

The birth certificate lists Fairfax COUNTY as location, so not help there.  Maybe the Fairfax in the hospital name refers to the county instead of the city?

Anyway, seeing your post reminded me of this issue.  That is why responded to it.

SAMSUNG-SGH-I747

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famartin

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For the sake of completeness, it may also be worth noting there are lots of "private" roads in Virginia in the sense that while they're open to the public, they're owned and maintained by private entities. The typical example, especially in Northern Virginia but by no means limited to here, is roads owned by homeowners' associations. HOA dues pay for the maintenance, to include repaving, sealcoating, plowing, etc. I live on such a street in Kingstowne and it sometimes leads to the weird situation during the winter where our street is nicely plowed by the HOA plow but you can't go far because the VDOT System street to which ours connects has not yet seen a plow (the HOA plow is not permitted to clear VDOT roads for liability reasons). It also leads to the somewhat more annoying situation of our street being in excellent condition and the VDOT System street having a few washboard-like sections where they didn't do a very good job of repairing potholes.

As Mike notes, it's pretty common for VDOT System roads to have been built by developers as part of the "proffers" required by the county as conditions to building something, especially a neighborhood.

That situation with the HOA road plowing happened to me too, except I could just barely get out on the VDOT road (fortunately).

I get the VDOT system, but I wish all the 600+ routes would just be signed as county roads (since all the numbers get duplicated), instead of "state secondary".  Minor difference but would ease the confusion of 'why is there a SR 606 that don't connect in distant counties'?
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Avalanchez71

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They could cluster better rather than having 600s in every adjacent county.  They could do a system like using 600s, 700s, 800s, and 900s in different regions going back and repeating.  Cases would arise wherin 600s may need to in adjacent counties but this would be a better system.
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froggie

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They could do a system like using 600s, 700s, 800s, and 900s in different regions going back and repeating.

No they couldn't.  There are numerous counties in the state with enough roads to where they would need all four of those ranges within the same county, and then some.  Most counties would need at least 2 or three of those.

In short, due to the number and volume of streets/roads in several counties, your suggestion would not work.
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