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Author Topic: VA: Twinning Highways But Not Rebuilding Original Alignment  (Read 9338 times)

rte66man

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Re: US 23 in Virginia
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2016, 07:17:04 PM »

Quote
Now that this is mentioned, I believe a couple of interstates in my area are like this. If I remember right, some portions of I-81 north of Carlisle had the SB lanes being a rollercoaster ride, while the NB lanes had a flat alignment.

Not the same thing.  This thread is referring to 2-lane highways that had a set of parallel lanes built to make it 4 lanes, but where minimal (if any) work was done with the original set of lanes.


I-35 in Liberty, MO just north of the junction with 152 has that situation.  The northbound lanes are the original US69 roadbed while the SB lanes were added when it became an interstate.  I-44 sort of has that in stretches between Springfield and St. Louis.  When US66 was twinned, many times it was on a new alignment.  When it was converted to I-44, one set of lanes became the frontage roads while a new set of lanes was built on the other side.

Fixed quote   -Mark
« Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 07:32:16 PM by 74/171FAN »
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US 29 in VA
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2016, 08:50:26 AM »

I've noticed when driving on US 29 in VA, northbound 29 seems to go up and down while southbound 29 is more straight.  Why is that the case and not the opposite?
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Mapmikey

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Re: US 29 in VA
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2016, 09:03:10 AM »

For the segments of US 29 that do this, the NB and SB carriageways were built 30-40 years apart.  Virginia did not even out the terrain very much when building their first versions of highways in the 1920s-30s and during the widenings of the 50s-70s they did not reconstruct the original side (today they usually do reconstruct the older side if it isn't flat).

If for US 29 it is always the case that the NB side is the wavy side, that is just a coincidence and happenstance related to issues I'm sure relating to right of way acquisition and whichever was the easier side to clear out for construction.  I know that there are some places where the railroad is next to the NB side so it made total sense to build the second carriageway for the SB side.
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74/171FAN

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Re: VA: Twinning Highways But Not Rebuilding Original Alignment
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2016, 10:05:46 AM »

I merged these topics together with a new title (see above) since they both seem to just be about the twinning of highways in VA while the original alignment was not rebuilt.

Anyone can obviously decide to make a new thread on specifically US 23, US 29, etc.

Thanks,

Mark
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ixnay

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Re: US 23 in Virginia
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2016, 06:24:42 PM »

"did the same thing" as in "Virginia twinning"?  Or as in reconstructing the old lanes?  The short answer to both is "yes".


Sorry if my question wasn't clear. Yes, I was referring to "Virginia Twinning". Again, my apologizes. The "same" thing is happening to US 220 between Greensboro and the future I-73 interchange in Summerfield, NC. They built a new parallel lane that will be southbound lanes, and modified the old road (future northbound lanes) by making some changes and then cover it with new asphalt. The reason I put "same" is because I am not sure if that is called "twinning" or just a rebuild. Some parts of US 220 is being torn down and rebuilt, however.

"Virginia Twinning" is just a term I came up with years ago to describe the conversion of a two-lane route to a four-lane route merely by building one new parallel carriageway and not making any changes, or only minimal ones, to the existing route.

Nice term.  File with "Jersey wall".

In my conscious memory, I've seen more than one example of "Virginia twinning", as you call it, on Delaware roads...

- DE 896 from Porter Road to DE 71 at the north end of the Summit Bridge

- DE 896/DE 71 from the south end of the Summit Bridge to Boyds Corner Road (the Summit Bridge itself was already built as a 4-lane although a couple of times in its history it was reduced to one lane each way for redecking/maintenance)

- what is today DE 1 in several stretches between the south end of Dover AFB and DE 16, and again when the 1965-vintage Indian River Inlet bridge (not the current cable stayed version) received a parallel span, and again between South Bethany and the DE/MD line.  (The stretch between DE 16 and U.S. 9/DE 404 was *probably* Virginia-twinned in the late '60s [except for the hamlet of Nassau and the Broadkill River drawbridge which were completely bypassed, and the Broadkill drawbridge removed], though I don't remember the construction.)

- U.S. 113 between just south of Milford and just north of Georgetown

(I cite these upgrades just as I think of them, not in any particular order)
 
Would the building of parallel spans of the Delaware Memorial Bridge and the two Chesapeake Bay crossings count as "Virginia twinnings", or don't bridges qualify (as in my DE 1 Indian River Inlet example)?

ixnay
« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 08:33:57 PM by ixnay »
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ModernDayWarrior

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Re: VA: Twinning Highways But Not Rebuilding Original Alignment
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2016, 01:06:22 AM »

Quite a few of these in Missouri. US 63 north of Columbia is the example that comes to mind - one carriageway will be perfectly flat and straight, while the other one looks like a rollercoaster. US 60 between Springfield and Cabool has several spots like this also.
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1995hoo

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Re: VA: Twinning Highways But Not Rebuilding Original Alignment
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2016, 07:36:00 PM »

I found myself thinking about this thread today because we drove up US-29 from Greensboro to the US-15 turnoff to Haymarket (the latter endpoint due to traffic). One way to determine which carriageway is older in many cases in Virginia, though it's certainly not a perfect method, is to look at the bridges over any waterways. It's usually pretty easy to tell which style is older.
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Re: VA: Twinning Highways But Not Rebuilding Original Alignment
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2016, 08:16:26 PM »

Is US 13 across the CBBT this way?  It was in 2007
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ixnay

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Re: VA: Twinning Highways But Not Rebuilding Original Alignment
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2016, 08:20:30 PM »

Is US 13 across the CBBT this way?  It was in 2007

Ought-seven was the last time I went over and through the CBBT as well.

The original CBBT bridges, trestles, causeway, and tubes were finished in 1964.  The parallel bridges, trestles, and causeway went in in the late '90s, but the tunnels afaik are still single tubes, though there has been talk of double tubing one of the tunnels.

ixnay
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Re: VA: Twinning Highways But Not Rebuilding Original Alignment
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2016, 09:06:05 PM »

Is US 13 across the CBBT this way?  It was in 2007

Ought-seven was the last time I went over and through the CBBT as well.

The original CBBT bridges, trestles, causeway, and tubes were finished in 1964.  The parallel bridges, trestles, and causeway went in in the late '90s, but the tunnels afaik are still single tubes, though there has been talk of double tubing one of the tunnels.

ixnay

Yeah, they are currently single tubes. VDOT will be twinning the Thimble Shoal Tunnel over the next few years.
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cpzilliacus

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Re: VA: Twinning Highways But Not Rebuilding Original Alignment
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2016, 02:04:39 AM »

Yeah, they are currently single tubes. VDOT The Chesapeake Bay Bridge and Tunnel District will be twinning the Thimble Shoal Tunnel over the next few years.

FTFY.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 02:43:42 PM by cpzilliacus »
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TheOneKEA

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Re: US 23 in Virginia
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2016, 07:25:09 AM »

Md. 2/Md. 4 in Calvert County, same thing.  Here the northbound side is the old two lane road, and the southbound side (where the GSV camera is located) is more modern.

Md. 3 in Anne Arundel County. The camera is looking south along the "old" side of the road.

MD 260 in Calvert County is an especially strong example of this style of dual carriage way. The segment between the interchange with E Mount Harmony Road and the western end of MD 775 near Chesapeake Beach has very steep differences in grade and slope between the eastbound side and the westbound side.
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Re: VA: Twinning Highways But Not Rebuilding Original Alignment
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2016, 11:16:25 AM »

Regarding the CBBT question, one could say yes, to a degree.  On the main part of the CBBT, the northbound lanes were the original lanes...they were significantly rehabbed after the parallel trestles were completed in 1999, and emergency pull-off areas were added, but the northbound lanes still lack a full shoulder on the trestles and this is the big way you can tell they were the original lanes (that and the through truss at the North Channel crossing versus the high-bridge-but-no-superstructure on the southbound lanes at North Channel).

However, on Fishermans Island and north to the toll plaza, the southbound lanes were the original lanes.  You can tell this in the lack of a shoulder over Fisherman Inlet (between the island and the Eastern Shore mainland) on the southbound side.  However, the CBBT Commission (as they're also called) did add shoulders to the original lanes on land (Fisherman Island itself plus north of the inlet to the toll plaza).
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plain

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Re: VA: Twinning Highways But Not Rebuilding Original Alignment
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2016, 05:05:15 AM »

US 58 between South Hill and Emporia is the best example I can think of...
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oscar

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Re: VA: Twinning Highways But Not Rebuilding Original Alignment
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2019, 06:40:02 PM »

I found myself thinking about this thread today because we drove up US-29 from Greensboro to the US-15 turnoff to Haymarket (the latter endpoint due to traffic). One way to determine which carriageway is older in many cases in Virginia, though it's certainly not a perfect method, is to look at the bridges over any waterways. It's usually pretty easy to tell which style is older.

VDOT recently reopened US 29's northbound lanes approaching Vint Hill Rd. SW of Gainesville, after a month-long closure to level out that roller-coastery NB segment. Problem was northbound US 29 traffic coming over a hill was slamming into traffic stopped at the Vint Hill traffic light.
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sprjus4

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Re: VA: Twinning Highways But Not Rebuilding Original Alignment
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2019, 08:35:47 PM »

US 58 between South Hill and Emporia is the best example I can think of...
Other parts of US-58 west of Boydton are also like this.

US-58 between Boydton and South Hill and between Emporia and Suffolk are mostly flat as that section wasn't dualized until the 80s - 2000s.
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Re: VA: Twinning Highways But Not Rebuilding Original Alignment
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2019, 10:01:40 PM »

Iowa does it too. US 218 IA 27 Avenue of the Saints. Illinois generally used the old road but builds them up and adds shoulders. I 155 is an example
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Re: VA: Twinning Highways But Not Rebuilding Original Alignment
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2019, 12:14:54 AM »

Another example is U.S. 301 in King George County, Virginia (and also, I believe, parts of U.S. 301 in Caroline County, Virginia north of Bowling Green).

In King George, long parts of 301 on the northbound side are clearly inferior to the southbound side, which is a much more modern design, for reasons cited above.
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Re: VA: Twinning Highways But Not Rebuilding Original Alignment
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2019, 12:46:26 PM »

I came up with a term "Virginia Twinning" for this. It's not just US 23 that got this treatment, but a whole lot of other roads as well all over the state. The example I drove most recently was US 522 between the West Virginia state line and Winchester.

Always felt like you could go airborne on some of those hills going southbound.  The southbound section of US 17 north of Warrenton also has some nice tree covered dips in the road, while the northbound side is relatively steady grade wise.
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Re: VA: Twinning Highways But Not Rebuilding Original Alignment
« Reply #45 on: September 10, 2019, 12:43:49 AM »

I found myself thinking about this thread today because we drove up US-29 from Greensboro to the US-15 turnoff to Haymarket (the latter endpoint due to traffic). One way to determine which carriageway is older in many cases in Virginia, though it's certainly not a perfect method, is to look at the bridges over any waterways. It's usually pretty easy to tell which style is older.

VDOT recently reopened US 29's northbound lanes approaching Vint Hill Rd. SW of Gainesville, after a month-long closure to level out that roller-coastery NB segment. Problem was northbound US 29 traffic coming over a hill was slamming into traffic stopped at the Vint Hill traffic light.

While what they did was a huge improvement, I wish they had gone a little further, as the hills just before and after the section that was re-graded are not exactly great. Still, I'm sure this will greatly reduce the accident rate.
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Re: VA: Twinning Highways But Not Rebuilding Original Alignment
« Reply #46 on: September 10, 2019, 09:34:12 AM »

In Ohio, SR 18 between I-71 and I-77 was previously an example of Virginia twinning. One direction (I don't recall which) was the original rolling grade and the other was built to smooth out hills. It led to some unusually steep median crossovers at intersections. About 15 years ago, ODOT rebuilt the entire stretch so it is a single 5-lane roadway rather than dual carriageways.
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Re: VA: Twinning Highways But Not Rebuilding Original Alignment
« Reply #47 on: September 10, 2019, 10:02:35 AM »

I found myself thinking about this thread today because we drove up US-29 from Greensboro to the US-15 turnoff to Haymarket (the latter endpoint due to traffic). One way to determine which carriageway is older in many cases in Virginia, though it's certainly not a perfect method, is to look at the bridges over any waterways. It's usually pretty easy to tell which style is older.

VDOT recently reopened US 29's northbound lanes approaching Vint Hill Rd. SW of Gainesville, after a month-long closure to level out that roller-coastery NB segment. Problem was northbound US 29 traffic coming over a hill was slamming into traffic stopped at the Vint Hill traffic light.

While what they did was a huge improvement, I wish they had gone a little further, as the hills just before and after the section that was re-graded are not exactly great. Still, I'm sure this will greatly reduce the accident rate.

I'm surprised, and somewhat disappointed, that they didn't upgrade/widen the right shoulder.
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1995hoo

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Re: VA: Twinning Highways But Not Rebuilding Original Alignment
« Reply #48 on: September 10, 2019, 10:48:08 AM »

I found myself thinking about this thread today because we drove up US-29 from Greensboro to the US-15 turnoff to Haymarket (the latter endpoint due to traffic). One way to determine which carriageway is older in many cases in Virginia, though it's certainly not a perfect method, is to look at the bridges over any waterways. It's usually pretty easy to tell which style is older.

VDOT recently reopened US 29's northbound lanes approaching Vint Hill Rd. SW of Gainesville, after a month-long closure to level out that roller-coastery NB segment. Problem was northbound US 29 traffic coming over a hill was slamming into traffic stopped at the Vint Hill traffic light.

While what they did was a huge improvement, I wish they had gone a little further, as the hills just before and after the section that was re-graded are not exactly great. Still, I'm sure this will greatly reduce the accident rate.

I’ve only been through there in the other direction since that work was done (came home via a different route), but from what I could see the sight lines appeared to be a serious improvement.

I sometimes wondered whether that would have been a place to use a warning signal that flashes when the light ahead is red.
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Mapmikey

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Re: VA: Twinning Highways But Not Rebuilding Original Alignment
« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2019, 01:21:51 PM »


I sometimes wondered whether that would have been a place to use a warning signal that flashes when the light ahead is red.

There were quite a few warning postings:

Signal ahead (signs and pavement marking) 1/2 mile ahead - https://goo.gl/maps/QXQpQCf3wCjvE5Ry9
Another signal ahead sign further up - https://goo.gl/maps/HFbqebA9Not7A3zA9
Watch for stopped vehicles plus rumble strips about 1/4 mile from VA 215 - https://goo.gl/maps/6yWWTwTgSDsmqCtE7
A second set of rumble strips nearby
Be prepared to stop when flashing (installed 2017) - https://goo.gl/maps/UsdmTN3Mw5Xz3Pj86
A third set of rumble strips
Watch for stopped traffic when flashing (back to at least 2008) - https://goo.gl/maps/sAmFUUU1eFUAB8Mb6

IMO this last sign was too close to VA 215...perched at the top of the rise you couldn't see over.  This one needed to be back a good bit farther.
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