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Author Topic: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass  (Read 42042 times)

sprjus4

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #275 on: May 14, 2020, 01:36:12 PM »

Does anyone else besides me feel that there are way too many route shields for US-395 on the CA-58 West exit ramp to US-395?

Google Streetview hasn't caught up with the CA 58 bypass yet...


Their area pix date from about 2014 or 2015; the Hinkley bypass several miles east, completed a couple of years ago, isn't shown either.
Streetview ≠ Aerial Imagery
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sparker

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #276 on: May 15, 2020, 01:20:38 AM »

Does anyone else besides me feel that there are way too many route shields for US-395 on the CA-58 West exit ramp to US-395?

Google Streetview hasn't caught up with the CA 58 bypass yet...


Their area pix date from about 2014 or 2015; the Hinkley bypass several miles east, completed a couple of years ago, isn't shown either.
Streetview ≠ Aerial Imagery

Aerial imagery is late to the party as well.  Kramer, Hinkley -- nothing shown but the original 58 alignment.  At least McNally has it on paper for their 2021 edition!

P.S. -- just checked; Google Maps definitely shows both completed sections, Hinkley and Kramer.  Just their airborne images that are lagging.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 01:24:14 AM by sparker »
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Bobby5280

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #277 on: May 18, 2020, 12:22:34 AM »

Let me preface this by saying I'm not an Apple fanboy (I have an Android phone and use Windows-based PCs to do graphics work). Nevertheless, the Hinkley and Kramer Junction bypasses are examples where Apple Maps is definitely ahead of Google. CA-58 is routed correctly. The satellite/aerial imagery is more up to date. It shows the finished version of the Hinkley bypass and at least shows the Kramer Junction project under construction.
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michravera

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #278 on: May 18, 2020, 06:16:15 PM »

Let me preface this by saying I'm not an Apple fanboy (I have an Android phone and use Windows-based PCs to do graphics work). Nevertheless, the Hinkley and Kramer Junction bypasses are examples where Apple Maps is definitely ahead of Google. CA-58 is routed correctly. The satellite/aerial imagery is more up to date. It shows the finished version of the Hinkley bypass and at least shows the Kramer Junction project under construction.

Has anyone noticed whether the posted speed limit is 70 MPH, 65, or something else on the new section?
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sprjus4

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #279 on: May 18, 2020, 07:33:27 PM »

Let me preface this by saying I'm not an Apple fanboy (I have an Android phone and use Windows-based PCs to do graphics work). Nevertheless, the Hinkley and Kramer Junction bypasses are examples where Apple Maps is definitely ahead of Google. CA-58 is routed correctly. The satellite/aerial imagery is more up to date. It shows the finished version of the Hinkley bypass and at least shows the Kramer Junction project under construction.

Has anyone noticed whether the posted speed limit is 70 MPH, 65, or something else on the new section?
According to Waze, the speed limit is still at 65 mph. It could be wrong, but Waze is usually up-to-date when it comes to changes.
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Bobby5280

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #280 on: May 18, 2020, 11:05:32 PM »

Hinkley Bypass is indeed signed at 65mph. A couple of speed limit signs are visible along the freeway in Google Street View.
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sparker

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #281 on: May 19, 2020, 02:12:53 AM »

Hinkley Bypass is indeed signed at 65mph. A couple of speed limit signs are visible along the freeway in Google Street View.

The only part of CA 58 signed at 70 is the original freeway section through Boron; it drops to 65 WB about a mile before the California City Blvd. intersection, which Caltrans deems appropriate for expressways.  I'm guessing that since the new Kramer bypass becomes an expressway once over the RR tracks east of the 395 junction they decided to set the speed at 65 to account for not only that but the likelihood of slow trucks entering or leaving the freeway at Kramer/US 395.  However, in my years of driving on 58 I've found that most cars will be doing 75-80 in any case, with trucks about 5-10 less.  On that corridor, it seems that everyone is trying to get from point A to point B in the least possible time; no stopping or even slowing to smell the roses (although the poppy fields near Tehachapi are pretty in the spring!).       
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sprjus4

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #282 on: May 19, 2020, 02:20:40 AM »

I've found that most cars will be doing 75-80 in any case   
Heh, when I drove it, doing 75 mph was considered slow.
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michravera

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #283 on: May 19, 2020, 02:07:14 PM »

I've found that most cars will be doing 75-80 in any case   
Heh, when I drove it, doing 75 mph was considered slow.

Yeah, my experience has been that 80 MPH was pretty normal for cars on the freeway and 4-lane expressway sections and more like 70 on the undivided sections. But, with the opening of a section that is freeway, 70 MPH would be legal to post. As I indicated, there was a section with  nominal but infrequent cross traffic and left turns (which may now be illegal) between Mojave and California City that was posted 70 MPH before CalTrans discovered that it was illegal.
I had noticed that the Mojave bypass was originally only posted at 65MPH when it opened and I wondered why it hadn't been put up to 70. I had assumed that they were waiting for everything to complete before raising it. My question is whether that subsequently happened (and what the impediment was to doing so). I was last through there last July just before the opening. I could see the new freeway, but couldn't drive on it.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 09:12:17 PM by michravera »
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sprjus4

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #284 on: May 19, 2020, 02:48:04 PM »

65 mph is probably a default speed limit and there has no been no push or traffic study to increase it to 70 mph since its opened. Same goes for the Kramer Junction and Hinkley bypasses. The Boron bypass likely had a speed study conducted and determined 70 mph was appropriate for the entire stretch, posted it, then realized the non-limited-access segment is not legally allowed above 65 mph. Goes to show that speed limit differentials based on functional class results in artificial limits. All highways (2-lane, 4-lane, freeway, interstate) should be permitted at 70 mph, not just freeways, and everything else 65 mph.

Honestly, California ought to change the law to permit 70 mph on non-limited-access highways where safe, and increase the rest of CA-58 to 70 mph, with the exception of through Tehachapi Mountains where 65 mph is appropriate.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 02:51:03 PM by sprjus4 »
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #285 on: May 19, 2020, 03:06:53 PM »

The speed limit here should be minimum 85MPH. I doubt California changes itís laws to allow faster speeds. Urbanists are trying to remove a law preventing policing for profit which requires speed limits on city streets to be set within the 85th percentile which requires a traffic study or else speeding tickets can be thrown out. I hope that law stays in plane but seeing the dumb shit California keeps doing I bet it is removed.
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sprjus4

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #286 on: May 19, 2020, 03:58:33 PM »

The speed limit here should be minimum 85MPH. I doubt California changes itís laws to allow faster speeds. Urbanists are trying to remove a law preventing policing for profit which requires speed limits on city streets to be set within the 85th percentile which requires a traffic study or else speeding tickets can be thrown out. I hope that law stays in plane but seeing the dumb shit California keeps doing I bet it is removed.
80 mph would be appropriate and in line with other western states on rural freeways.

I-15 north of Barstow, I-40, CA-58 freeway portions, and I-5 north of CA-99 split would be reasonable candidates for 80 mph in the southern part of the state, mostly where it is already posted at 70 mph.

It should at least be 75 mph on rural freeways, and 70 mph on divided highways.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 04:00:40 PM by sprjus4 »
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #287 on: May 19, 2020, 04:26:02 PM »

It would be nice to see 75MPH on HOT lanes in the city.
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michravera

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #288 on: May 19, 2020, 09:56:18 PM »

65 mph is probably a default speed limit and there has no been no push or traffic study to increase it to 70 mph since its opened. Same goes for the Kramer Junction and Hinkley bypasses. The Boron bypass likely had a speed study conducted and determined 70 mph was appropriate for the entire stretch, posted it, then realized the non-limited-access segment is not legally allowed above 65 mph. Goes to show that speed limit differentials based on functional class results in artificial limits. All highways (2-lane, 4-lane, freeway, interstate) should be permitted at 70 mph, not just freeways, and everything else 65 mph.

Honestly, California ought to change the law to permit 70 mph on non-limited-access highways where safe, and increase the rest of CA-58 to 70 mph, with the exception of through Tehachapi Mountains where 65 mph is appropriate.

I've been advocating "Drive Carefully" on most highways that carry "a majority of traffic not destined for places within 50 km of that section of road" since the 1995 debates on speed limits. I've been advocating that California go metric and permit 130 km'h especially on portions of I-5, I-8, I-10, I-15, I-40 and CASR-99 and CASR-58. Limits in Eastern California are usually reasonable when they aren't the State Maximum.
The Legislature isn't as anti-increase as one might think. Back in 1995, there wasn't, as far as I remember, a single dissenting vote on the reinstating of the pre-1974 limits. Cars have gotten a lot safer (and fuel efficient) at higher speed since 1995 and several-fold better than 1974.

A reasonable law would allow CalTrans engineers to post "any speed limit consistent with the maximum speed of safe and orderly flowing of traffic under ideal conditions" and create some interim statutory limits on sections of roads (like the 7 that I named above) that are already the state (former) maximum for which you don't need to be a professional traffic engineer to work out that a higher limit is justified. In other words, let the legislature say "85MPH on I-15 from Barstow to Nevada until the engineers have a chance to work out what is right." The reason that I would do that is that current traffic studies are based upon the posted 70MPH limit. If we have to wait for a survey, some places might never conduct one. I doubt that a study has been conducted on many of the 70MPH roads since 1974 and probably not on many of the roads posted for the maxed out at 65MPH either. My guess is that these roads were surveyed and the survey said "Safe and orderly well above the state maximum."

If they want to avoid some local opposition, they could exempt the 10 or 11 urban coastal counties from having to post above 70MPH.

I'm not a big advocate of significantly raising multi-axle vehicle speed limits, but a few adjustments, especially where cars can go 85MPH, might be in order to keep the speed differential down and let them pass REALLY slow vehicles without causing a back up all of the way to the Mexican frontier.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2020, 01:50:29 PM by michravera »
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kkt

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #289 on: May 20, 2020, 12:29:12 AM »

The speed limit here should be minimum 85MPH. I doubt California changes itís laws to allow faster speeds. Urbanists are trying to remove a law preventing policing for profit which requires speed limits on city streets to be set within the 85th percentile which requires a traffic study or else speeding tickets can be thrown out. I hope that law stays in plane but seeing the dumb shit California keeps doing I bet it is removed.

No, it shouldn't.  Drivers in California and other states are not trained well enough to safely drive at such speeds.
They're busy drinking their coffees and texting their friends and getting laws passed that these are not primary violations.

And a speed limit of 85 would attract people from all over California just to try out their high speed vehicles; CA 58 doesn't need that.

If you want to go that fast, try a track.
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sprjus4

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #290 on: May 20, 2020, 12:31:41 AM »

The speed limit here should be minimum 85MPH. I doubt California changes itís laws to allow faster speeds. Urbanists are trying to remove a law preventing policing for profit which requires speed limits on city streets to be set within the 85th percentile which requires a traffic study or else speeding tickets can be thrown out. I hope that law stays in plane but seeing the dumb shit California keeps doing I bet it is removed.

No, it shouldn't.  Drivers in California and other states are not trained well enough to safely drive at such speeds.
They're busy drinking their coffees and texting their friends and getting laws passed that these are not primary violations.

And a speed limit of 85 would attract people from all over California just to try out their high speed vehicles; CA 58 doesn't need that.

If you want to go that fast, try a track.
75 mph or 80 mph is not unreasonable on rural freeway segments.
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kkt

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #291 on: May 20, 2020, 12:32:14 AM »

80 mph would be appropriate and in line with other western states on rural freeways.

I don't think any of the three west coast states has any posted speed limits over 70 mph.
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Roadgeekteen

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #292 on: May 20, 2020, 12:35:52 AM »

80 mph would be appropriate and in line with other western states on rural freeways.

I don't think any of the three west coast states has any posted speed limits over 70 mph.
Washington allows 75, and I heard that they were going to post it on I-90, but I don't think they have yet.
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #293 on: May 20, 2020, 01:00:59 AM »

The speed limit here should be minimum 85MPH. I doubt California changes itís laws to allow faster speeds. Urbanists are trying to remove a law preventing policing for profit which requires speed limits on city streets to be set within the 85th percentile which requires a traffic study or else speeding tickets can be thrown out. I hope that law stays in plane but seeing the dumb shit California keeps doing I bet it is removed.

No, it shouldn't.  Drivers in California and other states are not trained well enough to safely drive at such speeds.
They're busy drinking their coffees and texting their friends and getting laws passed that these are not primary violations.

And a speed limit of 85 would attract people from all over California just to try out their high speed vehicles; CA 58 doesn't need that.

If you want to go that fast, try a track.

People already go 85 MPH or higher on rural freeways in normal vehicles.  75 MPH on something like 58 in the Mojave Desert would be fine.  If I was king of California for the day I-5 on the West Side Freeway would be signed as 85 MPH already.  We have absurd things like a 70 MPH standing cap but 55 MPH is fine on one-lane/two-lane mountain highways unless otherwise signed. 
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Bobby5280

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #294 on: May 20, 2020, 02:52:39 PM »

An 80mph speed limit along CA-58 between Barstow and Mojave would be appropriate. When I'm on the turnpikes here in Oklahoma I tend to drive a little closer to the 75mph speed limit, but only because the gas mileage in my crew cab pickup truck starts dropping off at 80mph. It would suck having to drive at 65mph.

Regarding unsafe driver behavior, particularly the inattentive activity like texting while driving, that nonsense is happening everywhere.

Really I see far more aggravation from it while driving in urban locations along surface streets. Every traffic signaled intersection is an opportunity for conflict. There's always some idiot up front not paying attention to the lights. The light turns green but he can't move until he finishes sending his text or tweet.

We have a LOT of drivers in Lawton who routinely drive 10mph-20mph UNDER the posted speed limits. The slow poke constipating traffic flow is usually either an elderly driver or someone in a vehicle with tribal plates. People playing with their phones, eating or putting on makeup clog up the traffic flow too. Driving with the flow of traffic is basic driver's education 101 stuff. The slow pokes create conflict. All other cars moving at normal speed have to weave around. Road rage builds up in some people when they're stuck behind a slow poke and can't get around. When they see an opening they hit the gas. And that creates more differences in traffic flow. Some of the slow poke drivers think they're actually making the roads safer by driving slow. The fact is they make the situation far more dangerous.
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sprjus4

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #295 on: May 20, 2020, 02:58:37 PM »

80 mph along the freeway segments.

75 mph is currently the highest speed limit posted on a non-limited-access highway in the country, so the divided highway segments would likely be maxed out at 75 mph if even increased from 65 mph.
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michravera

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #296 on: May 20, 2020, 10:51:47 PM »

80 mph along the freeway segments.

75 mph is currently the highest speed limit posted on a non-limited-access highway in the country, so the divided highway segments would likely be maxed out at 75 mph if even increased from 65 mph.

There are sections of US-95 in Arizona that are two-lane undivided with really wide shoulders that could handle 80 or 85MPH pretty easily. There are similar sections in Nevada. In addition to good sight lines and the wide shoulders (especially in Arizona), if you run off the road, there is basically nothing to hit. We should let the Engineers decide the speed limits. If the undivided road can only handle 40MPH safely and orderly under ideal conditions, that should be the speed limit. If can safely and orderly handle 85 under ideal conditions, that should be the limit. Every limit should be justified either by the design speed of the road (for newly constructed segments) or by an engineering assessment.

California has a specific law against driving more than 100 MPH on a public road. I would retain that law.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2020, 01:49:03 PM by michravera »
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rte66man

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #297 on: May 21, 2020, 01:42:51 PM »

It would be nice to see 75MPH on HOT lanes in the city.

It is on the HOT lanes on the LBJ in Dallas
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capt.ron

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #298 on: May 23, 2020, 01:18:21 PM »

80 mph along the freeway segments.

75 mph is currently the highest speed limit posted on a non-limited-access highway in the country, so the divided highway segments would likely be maxed out at 75 mph if even increased from 65 mph.

There are sections of US-95 in Arizona that are two-lane undivided with really wide shoulders that could handle 80 or 85MPH pretty easily. There are similar sections in Nevada. In addition to good sight lines and the wide shoulders (especially in Arizona), if you run off the road, there is basically nothing to hit. We should let the Engineers decide the speed limits. If the undivided road can only handle 40MPH safely and orderly under ideal conditions, that should be the speed limit. If can safely and orderly handle 85 under ideal conditions, that should be the limit. Every limit should be justified either by the design speed of the road (for newly constructed segments) or by an engineering assessment.

California has a specific law against driving more than 100 MPH on a public road. I would retain that law.

I wish ARDOT would understand that concept (setting speed limits based on design speed). Anyway, I'm glad Caltrans finally got the Kramer Bypass fully open. Now, they just need to work on US 395 and 4 lane it from there [bypass] down to I-15.
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stevashe

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Re: CA-58 Kramer Junction Bypass
« Reply #299 on: May 23, 2020, 03:30:45 PM »

80 mph would be appropriate and in line with other western states on rural freeways.

I don't think any of the three west coast states has any posted speed limits over 70 mph.
Washington allows 75, and I heard that they were going to post it on I-90, but I don't think they have yet.

WSDOT did a study and determined that the projected time savings didn't outweigh the projected increase in crashes, so it won't be happening.

I think all of you assuming the engineers would be raising limits extra high everywhere are a bit optimistic. From my couple years' experience in the field, engineers are definitely more on the cautious side when it comes to design standards, and all you have to do to see that is look at the speeds posted on warning signs for curves and intersections and such. In fact, those are purposely posted 5-10 mph under the design speed of the curve to allow for a safety margin, and the MUTCD even says this explicitly in its standards for them.

And if you think about putting yourself in the position of the engineer, you might be hesitant to set a speed limit right at the design speed because there is no room for error, leaving you potentially liable if you cannot justify that decision in a lawsuit after multiple crashes happen on the highway you designed.

In any case, unless California decides to start strictly enforcing their speed limits, I don't see them as a problem at all. Most traffic flows at near 80 mph in 65 zones, even in urban areas. In fact, I drove across the whole state north to south and back last September and had no issues going 78-80 in 65 zones and 83-85 in 70 zones the whole way, for 1600+ miles. In fact I only remember seeing maybe 2 officers checking speeds, and they were pulling over the traffic that was surely going as fast as I was.
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