AARoads Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"  (Read 7372 times)

jbnv

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2325
  • Visionary

  • Age: 41
  • Location: Independence/Hammond, LA
  • Last Login: October 18, 2017, 08:39:49 PM
    • Personal Site
Re: Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2016, 01:48:54 PM »

If you ask me, the M in the shield was overkill anyway. You'd have to be completely brain-dead to not know you're in Michigan.

It's actually used in speaking, unlike Wisconsin.  In Michigan, it's "M-14", or in the western UP, "Highway M-28", unlike Wisconsin where everything, including interstates, is simply "Highway", i.e. "Highway 41".

Not unlike Louisiana. If someone mentions "LA (some number)" they're referring to a state highway. (And the "LA" is even more overkill since the shield is the state outline.) (Oddly enough, we tend to call US highways just "Highway." I-10, LA 1, but "Highway" 90.)
Logged
Keep Clearview, lose the government bureaucracies and the politicians who enable them.
US Redo | Louisiana Redo | Route Challenge | Photos

Max Rockatansky

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 5157
  • Location: Route 9, Sector 26
  • Last Login: Today at 01:23:09 PM
Re: Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2016, 02:09:20 PM »

If you ask me, the M in the shield was overkill anyway. You'd have to be completely brain-dead to not know you're in Michigan.

It's actually used in speaking, unlike Wisconsin.  In Michigan, it's "M-14", or in the western UP, "Highway M-28", unlike Wisconsin where everything, including interstates, is simply "Highway", i.e. "Highway 41".

Not unlike Louisiana. If someone mentions "LA (some number)" they're referring to a state highway. (And the "LA" is even more overkill since the shield is the state outline.) (Oddly enough, we tend to call US highways just "Highway." I-10, LA 1, but "Highway" 90.)

Or Arizona and Nevada actually putting the state name in the shield.  Personally I'm all for giving the signs a little bit of character to make them stand apart from each other, a little "M" seems minor to me and somehow it's managed to hang on after all these generations of signs.

Max Rockatansky

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 5157
  • Location: Route 9, Sector 26
  • Last Login: Today at 01:23:09 PM
Re: Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2016, 11:00:51 PM »

Apparently you can get your own replica M-22 now on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/M-22-MICHIGAN-HIGHWAY-AUTHENTIC-MUNICIPAL-GRADE-ROAD-SIGN-30-x-30-in-/311689619926?hash=item48922629d6:g:xNwAAOSwgmJXyf7m

Mind the weird font and for some reason the sign being 30x30

jbnv

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2325
  • Visionary

  • Age: 41
  • Location: Independence/Hammond, LA
  • Last Login: October 18, 2017, 08:39:49 PM
    • Personal Site
Re: Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2016, 10:33:55 AM »

Apparently you can get your own replica M-22 now on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/M-22-MICHIGAN-HIGHWAY-AUTHENTIC-MUNICIPAL-GRADE-ROAD-SIGN-30-x-30-in-/311689619926?hash=item48922629d6:g:xNwAAOSwgmJXyf7m

Mind the weird font and for some reason the sign being 30x30

"Authentic municipal grade."  :pan:
Logged
Keep Clearview, lose the government bureaucracies and the politicians who enable them.
US Redo | Louisiana Redo | Route Challenge | Photos

Max Rockatansky

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 5157
  • Location: Route 9, Sector 26
  • Last Login: Today at 01:23:09 PM
Re: Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2016, 03:57:50 PM »

Apparently you can get your own replica M-22 now on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/M-22-MICHIGAN-HIGHWAY-AUTHENTIC-MUNICIPAL-GRADE-ROAD-SIGN-30-x-30-in-/311689619926?hash=item48922629d6:g:xNwAAOSwgmJXyf7m

Mind the weird font and for some reason the sign being 30x30

"Authentic municipal grade."  :pan:

I don't have a problem with replicas per se, but at the very least make them as close to spec as possible.  At least use the correct size and font.  I have a couple friends that actually sell authentic replicas and make decent money on it.  Obviously there is a niche with M-22 that someone is trying to exploit.....problem is that these "watered down" signs being posted are tomorrow's rare bird finds.  Begs the question if that will help with the theft at all?

bulldog1979

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 564
  • Age: 38
  • Last Login: October 19, 2017, 10:31:21 PM
Re: Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2016, 02:14:01 AM »

Never mind that you can order a better one for about $50 from various suppliers.
Logged

Red Roads

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3
  • Location: Grand Rapids, MI
  • Last Login: February 12, 2017, 09:16:58 PM
Re: Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2016, 12:15:39 AM »

Friend in the brewery I hang out in came up with a tongue-in-cheek joke, selling M-11 stickers (main drag in southern Grand Rapids) as "only half as fun as M-22." It didn't take long for him to receive a cease-and-desist letter from Mich DOT and the Secretary of State in Lansing -- turns out all Michigan highway signs (the M-ones) are copyrighted. He ended up going legal and paying some ridiculously low fee per sticker -- more of a nuisance charge than anything else, and he said the State people were surprisingly nice to deal with.

And who turns miscreants in? The M-22 store, of course, since they paid licensing fees and royalties and don't want anyone making money off their name!
Logged

formulanone

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4164
  • Age: 43
  • Location: HSV
  • Last Login: Today at 07:23:47 AM
    • My site, in the middle of the street.
Re: Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2016, 10:03:58 AM »

Friend in the brewery I hang out in came up with a tongue-in-cheek joke, selling M-11 stickers (main drag in southern Grand Rapids) as "only half as fun as M-22." It didn't take long for him to receive a cease-and-desist letter from Mich DOT and the Secretary of State in Lansing -- turns out all Michigan highway signs (the M-ones) are copyrighted. He ended up going legal and paying some ridiculously low fee per sticker -- more of a nuisance charge than anything else, and he said the State people were surprisingly nice to deal with.

And who turns miscreants in? The M-22 store, of course, since they paid licensing fees and royalties and don't want anyone making money off their name!

I would argue that the Michigan Highway Shield fails the "threshold of originality" portion of copyright law, since it consists of a simple shape and text (a single letter). For that matter, many states use some sort of simple design.

It could still be part of trademark law, however...and then I could understand where a government entity wouldn't want reproduction signs mounted anywhere and everywhere, which might get very confusing for some people.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 10:10:29 AM by formulanone »
Logged

hbelkins

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10698
  • Celebrating another day that Hillary isn't prez.

  • Age: 55
  • Location: Kentucky
  • Last Login: Today at 12:11:27 PM
    • Millennium Highway
Re: Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2016, 09:33:43 PM »

I had an idea for developing products using a couple of no-longer-in-use Kentucky parkway markers, but never could get an answer as to whether or not the Commonwealth of Kentucky owns the rights to those images.
Logged

bulldog1979

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 564
  • Age: 38
  • Last Login: October 19, 2017, 10:31:21 PM
Re: Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2016, 12:44:04 AM »

Friend in the brewery I hang out in came up with a tongue-in-cheek joke, selling M-11 stickers (main drag in southern Grand Rapids) as "only half as fun as M-22." It didn't take long for him to receive a cease-and-desist letter from Mich DOT and the Secretary of State in Lansing -- turns out all Michigan highway signs (the M-ones) are copyrighted. He ended up going legal and paying some ridiculously low fee per sticker -- more of a nuisance charge than anything else, and he said the State people were surprisingly nice to deal with.

And who turns miscreants in? The M-22 store, of course, since they paid licensing fees and royalties and don't want anyone making money off their name!

I would argue that the Michigan Highway Shield fails the "threshold of originality" portion of copyright law, since it consists of a simple shape and text (a single letter). For that matter, many states use some sort of simple design.

It could still be part of trademark law, however...and then I could understand where a government entity wouldn't want reproduction signs mounted anywhere and everywhere, which might get very confusing for some people.

A quick look at the Michigan MUTCD says that our highway markers are in the public domain and not subject to copyright. Attorney General Bill Schuette has said as much as well in the various lawsuits connected to the M-22 marker. I sincerely doubt that MDOT and the Secretary of State were the ones who sent that cease-and-desist letter on that basis.

However, M22 LLC has been sending such letters to people, including those who wanted to sell M-119 stickers, as a means of protecting their trademark on the M-22 marker. They're fastidious about enforcing their trademark lest it be diluted by other merchandise and ultimately cancelled.
Logged

bessertc

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 27
  • Location: Grand Rapids area, Michigan
  • Last Login: October 09, 2017, 05:24:34 PM
    • Michigan Highways
Re: Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2016, 03:51:25 PM »

MDOT social media folks are now asking the general public for their input on how to deter and limit M-22 sign thieves on their Facebook page. They're also asking if anyone had any other ideas than the "M-less" route markers and other already-tried deterrents which haven't worked so far. You may notice a familiar name in the comments section with one idea (including illustrative graphics) that may or may not help much...

https://www.facebook.com/MichiganDOT/posts/10154444493694927

Check it out!
Logged
Drive right. Pass Left. Please!

NE2

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 13181
  • not a kook

  • Age: 9
  • Location: central Florida
  • Last Login: Today at 10:12:13 AM
Re: Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2016, 04:00:08 PM »

Smear poo on the signs.
Logged
Florida route log | pre-1945
I stand with any member of any group who Trump hates. I will do my best to not make America hate again.

jbnv

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2325
  • Visionary

  • Age: 41
  • Location: Independence/Hammond, LA
  • Last Login: October 18, 2017, 08:39:49 PM
    • Personal Site
Re: Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2016, 07:52:03 PM »

I added some ideas to the Facebook topic.

Smear poo on the signs.

As funny and theoretically-practical as this idea is, I suspect that the people who have no shame in stealing a sign out in public have no qualms about the possibility of those signs having made contact with fecal matter.
Logged
Keep Clearview, lose the government bureaucracies and the politicians who enable them.
US Redo | Louisiana Redo | Route Challenge | Photos

Max Rockatansky

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 5157
  • Location: Route 9, Sector 26
  • Last Login: Today at 01:23:09 PM
Re: Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2016, 09:18:26 PM »

I added some ideas to the Facebook topic.

Smear poo on the signs.

As funny and theoretically-practical as this idea is, I suspect that the people who have no shame in stealing a sign out in public have no qualms about the possibility of those signs having made contact with fecal matter.

Nothing that spraying it down with a hose wouldn't solve.  It's weather resistant vinyl to begin with.

wanderer2575

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 411
  • Location: Farmington Hills, MI
  • Last Login: October 17, 2017, 11:11:00 PM
Re: Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"
« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2016, 09:37:42 PM »

I've also seen some M-137 merchandise, as a nod to Interlochen National Music Camp.
Logged

bessertc

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 27
  • Location: Grand Rapids area, Michigan
  • Last Login: October 09, 2017, 05:24:34 PM
    • Michigan Highways
Re: Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2016, 12:28:50 AM »

I've also seen some M-137 merchandise, as a nod to Interlochen National Music Camp.

I've probably seen about two dozen different Michigan routes (State, U.S. and even Intercounty Highway H-58!) turned into "merchandise" now, especially with route marker bumper stickers. Heck, two weekends ago in Wisconsin's Door Peninsula, a little store in Carlsville (on STH-42) was selling STH-42 stickers—pattern accurate, too! The concept is spreading...
Logged
Drive right. Pass Left. Please!

Rothman

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2937
  • Last Login: Today at 11:57:36 AM
Re: Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2016, 08:19:23 AM »

I added some ideas to the Facebook topic.

Smear poo on the signs.

As funny and theoretically-practical as this idea is, I suspect that the people who have no shame in stealing a sign out in public have no qualms about the possibility of those signs having made contact with fecal matter.

Nothing that spraying it down with a hose wouldn't solve.  It's weather resistant vinyl to begin with.

You've got a water tank in the back of your truck?
Logged
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

tchafe1978

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 283
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Wisconsin
  • Last Login: Today at 11:09:40 AM
Re: Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"
« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2016, 01:16:23 PM »

About a year ago, the city of Platteville, WI was having problems with a lot of their street sign blades going missing (my guess is some drunk college students stealing them). The city's solution was to paint the signs with a special paint that goes on clear, but when someone touches it, the paint reacts with the oils on the skin and turns the person's hands blue. Maybe something like this would work?

http://platteville.org/?post=20384
Logged

catch22

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 156
  • Location: SE Michigan
  • Last Login: Today at 10:53:56 AM
Re: Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2017, 02:24:57 PM »

Apparently the new signs didn't deter theft, so MDOT is now experimenting with vinyl lane markings:

http://upnorthlive.com/news/local/mdot-using-new-m-22-markings-to-deter-thefts
Logged

Max Rockatansky

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 5157
  • Location: Route 9, Sector 26
  • Last Login: Today at 01:23:09 PM
Re: Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2017, 09:13:56 PM »

Apparently the new signs didn't deter theft, so MDOT is now experimenting with vinyl lane markings:

http://upnorthlive.com/news/local/mdot-using-new-m-22-markings-to-deter-thefts

They really couldn't just make look like an M22 shield?  I guess the sign I bought for my brother in law will be extra valueable someday. Lol

Henry

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3600
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Chicago, IL/Seattle, WA
  • Last Login: Today at 01:26:40 PM
    • Henry Watson's Online Freeway
Re: Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"
« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2017, 09:52:42 AM »

I have to say, those M-22 signs look weird without the M on top! As to MI state highway shields looking similar to NC's, which state came first?
Logged
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

Max Rockatansky

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 5157
  • Location: Route 9, Sector 26
  • Last Login: Today at 01:23:09 PM
Re: Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"
« Reply #46 on: July 13, 2017, 10:07:08 AM »

I have to say, those M-22 signs look weird without the M on top! As to MI state highway shields looking similar to NC's, which state came first?

The State Trunkline Program in Michigan dates back to 1919 and even the older embossed shields still have the "M" in the diamond.  I'm not an expert on North Carolina but I want to say the state highway system there was created in the 1930s?

Mapmikey

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 2063
  • Age: 47
  • Last Login: Today at 01:32:22 PM
    • Co-curator Virginia Highways Project
Re: Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"
« Reply #47 on: July 13, 2017, 10:09:32 AM »

NC state routes were signed about 1922.
Logged
Clinched:
I: 4 12 16 17 20 26 27 30 59 64 66 68 72 73 ew74 77 78 79 82 83 ew84 85 ew86 e88 97 99
US: 4 6N 9W 11E 11W 13 15 19W 21 44 46 48 58 72 92 113 117 123 130 158 163 176 178 192 206 209 211 219 220 221 222 258 264 276 290 311 319 322 340 360 378 401 ew422 501 521 522 601 701
PriSystems: VA, DE

 


Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.