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Author Topic: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them  (Read 23790 times)

Max Rockatansky

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Re: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them
« Reply #125 on: December 30, 2016, 08:17:57 PM »

I'm curious if any sort of detailed map would exist at all.

Phrase your question differently. I'm sure that somewhere in the history library at Caltrans, where they keep the records on each route, there are maps. That's a very different question from whether non-employees could get to the map (and more to the point, whether it would make a difference). There are many fanciful ideas for routes, both within Caltrans and out on these forums. Most don't have a realistic chance of being either constructed or constructable.

But that's the big difference between 180, 168, and even 178 compared to 190.  190 had a pretty certain alignment that was roughly dotted-lined across the Sierras and it was a plausible one.  Both 180 and 168 had some pretty crazy ideas to get them over the Sierras as a complete route that would dwarf even Tioga Pass. If you are going to cross Olancha Pass is certainly a good place to go and would have compared favorably to something like 108 over Sonora Pass or 4 over Ebbetts. 

For me it's intriguing because I would love to see how the Division Highways wanted to tackle Upper Kern River Canyon.  M99 has a very gentle approach to the Kern River that was helped along by logging interests in Johnsondale alone with pre-existing roadway north out of Kernville.  Really the 1970s with the EPA Act probably really killed 190 more than anything else....perhaps the Division of Highways being reorganized as well.

It's ironic the Forest Service would go ahead and take all that effort to build Sherman Pass Road anyways which essentially led to a functional route between the 190 segments.  If I had to rank the passes I would put passage over Sherman Pass well ahead of Sonora or Ebbetts for ease of travel.  Even the County Route system got in on the action with J41 on Nine Mile Canyon Road, although there aren't any signs present nor am I aware if they ever were there at all.

When I get home I'll link over some of the research I did for Sherman Pass and the Mountain Routes in Tulare County.  Not state highways but was some certainly interesting that had more detail to be found than I expected.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 08:41:31 PM by Max Rockatansky »
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cahwyguy

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Re: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them
« Reply #126 on: December 30, 2016, 08:29:08 PM »

By the way, I'll throw one more into the mix, with a question.

Quote
I got the following question today on my site:

I think I found an error in the entry for Highway 162.  It reads:

Historically, this route is close to the original "El Camino Real" (The Kings Road). A portion of this route has officially been designated as part of "El Camino Real by Assembly Bill 1707, Chapter 739, on October 11, 2001.

I happen to live in Willows, right off of Highway 162, and I found this reference to be rather odd.
 
I looked up the assembly bill.  It does indeed reference Highway 162, but I think it must have been some other highway…or perhaps just a typo?  The current 162 runs through parts of Mendocino, Glenn, and Butte County, which would be quite some distance from the old missions.

The relevant segment is the first segment of Route 162, and here's what I have:

1. From Route 101 near Longvale to Route 5 near Willows via the vicinity of Covelo and Mendocino Pass.

This segment was not a state route before 1965. The route runs (signed as Route 162) along Covelo Road into Covelo. From that point, state maintenance end, but the traversable route then runs E along Mendocino Pass Road (unsigned, but marked FH-7) through the Mendocino National Forest. Mendocino Pass Road becomes Alder Springs Road in Glenn County. Signage of the road resumes near Elk Creek when Route 162 exits the National Forest. The route enters Willows along Wood Street.

Unconstructed from Covelo (Mendocino County PM34.05) to near Elk Creek (Glenn County PM37.65). The traversable local routing is Mendocino Pass Road and Alder Springs Road (both part of Forest Highway (FH) 7) and the unnamed portions of FH 7. As of October 1997, FWHA, Caltrans, and the USFS had decided not to reconstruct and pave 47 miles of FH 7. Mendocino Pass Road is primitive and unsuitable for use in a state highway. Alder Springs Road was improved in 1972 and repaired in 1978. Federal funds of $4M were allocated towards the improvement of Route 162 E of Alder Springs, but the road is still not to state standards.

Historically, this route is close to the original "El Camino Real" (The Kings Road). A portion of this route has officially been designated as part of "El Camino Real by Assembly Bill 1707, Chapter 739, on October 11, 2001.
 
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NE2

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Re: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them
« Reply #127 on: December 30, 2016, 09:06:53 PM »

By the way, I'll throw one more into the mix, with a question.
I bet it's supposed to be 262. The following appears to be the route: 12-121-37-101-280-82-101-[city]-72-5, with a branch on 123-[city]-185-238-[city]-262-[city]. I don't know how 87 got in there, and 92 is certainly not necessary to get between 185 and 238.
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cahwyguy

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Re: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them
« Reply #128 on: December 30, 2016, 09:29:53 PM »

By the way, I'll throw one more into the mix, with a question.
I bet it's supposed to be 262. The following appears to be the route: 12-121-37-101-280-82-101-[city]-72-5, with a branch on 123-[city]-185-238-[city]-262-[city]. I don't know how 87 got in there, and 92 is certainly not necessary to get between 185 and 238.

92 is likely there because of the connection with 82, which was the original 101 (and they are dealing only with the W peninsula side). Probably something similar with 87 and a connection with San Jose. 262 makes no sense -- did El Camino Real run up that side of the bay at all? Being a Southern California native, my California history of the bay area during that time is a bit sparse. I know there were missions in San Jose and a Presidio in San Francisco.

Here's the link to the bill in question: http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=200120020AB1707

In any case, relevant to this discussion, was the fact that the first segment of 162 is a discontiguous route in practice.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 09:34:12 PM by cahwyguy »
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andy3175

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Re: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them
« Reply #129 on: December 30, 2016, 11:28:03 PM »

By the way, I'll throw one more into the mix, with a question.
I bet it's supposed to be 262. The following appears to be the route: 12-121-37-101-280-82-101-[city]-72-5, with a branch on 123-[city]-185-238-[city]-262-[city]. I don't know how 87 got in there, and 92 is certainly not necessary to get between 185 and 238.

92 is likely there because of the connection with 82, which was the original 101 (and they are dealing only with the W peninsula side). Probably something similar with 87 and a connection with San Jose. 262 makes no sense -- did El Camino Real run up that side of the bay at all? Being a Southern California native, my California history of the bay area during that time is a bit sparse. I know there were missions in San Jose and a Presidio in San Francisco.

Here's the link to the bill in question: http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=200120020AB1707

In any case, relevant to this discussion, was the fact that the first segment of 162 is a discontiguous route in practice.

I agree with NE2 that this is supposed to reference SR 262. El Camino Real only goes as far north as Sonoma, which is the northernmost mission. SR 162 is north of Sonoma, so I think the link you cited has a typo. Since Mission San Jose actually sits on Mission Boulevard between I-680 Exits 12 and 16 (Exit 12 is SR 262 and Exit 16 is SR 238), I am fairly sure SR 262 is the intended route for this citation. SR 162 doesn't come close to any mission as far as I know.

Wikipedia has a decent map that shows El Camino Real linking the missions together:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Camino_Real_(California)#/media/File:1920_Alta_California_mission_trail.jpg
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them
« Reply #130 on: December 30, 2016, 11:31:32 PM »

As promised, some of my stuff from the Max's Roads thread in regards to 190, 180, 168, and other related stuff to gapped routes:

168; replies 49 and 50

-  Reply 49 has discussion about Kaiser Pass Road which likely would have been utilized in a trans-Sierra crossing.
-  Reply 49 has discussion about the 168 alignment change from the North Shore of Lake Huntington to the South, maps included.
-  Reply 49 has discussion about the 168 alignment on Tollhouse Road through Tollhouse before 168 was realigned through Prather with maps
-  Reply 50 has a couple videos of Kaiser Pass Road.
-  Reply 53 seems to have an inferred routing of 168 all the way to Florence Lake on Kaiser Pass Road.  It is difficult to tell for certain given that the map only contains the actual roadways and no State Signed Route Numbers.

180; replies 53 and 79

-  Reply 53 has discussion about the old alignment of 180 on Dunlap Road, 65, and 245 with maps included. 
-  There is a inferred routing of 180 on a 1934 map most of the way through the Sierras.
-  Reply 79 shows CA 180 signs in Grant Grove section of Kings Canyon National Park where there is supposedly a gap in the route.


Conjecture relevant to crossing the Sierras near the gap in CA 190 with Sherman Pass Road, J41, M50, M99, M56, and M107; replies 94,

190; replies 53 and 97

-  Reply 53 shows an inferred route of 190 through the Sierras that appears to be different than the 1964 routing.
-  Reply 97 shows the western half of 190 which includes the end point at M107.

Conjecture relevant to crossing the Sierras near the gap in CA 190 with Sherman Pass Road, J41, M50, M99, M56, and M107; replies 94 and 97


I apologize in advance for the disorganization, all the above is why I started to break things up into 2-3 topics per thread.  Really I was getting the gist that the thread was getting hard to follow with the shotgunned information in large posts.  I want to say it was Quillz that had a map showing a full implied route of 180 through the Sierras with it popping out on Onion Valley Road sometime in the 1930s before General Grant National Park became Kings Canyon National Park?  Regardless the Dunlap Road alignment of 180 might not haven't been captured yet on Cahighways that are in the listed replies above.

Edit:  Found the map Quillz posted in the following thread on Reply 68:

http://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=17893.50

It doesn't seem that the year of the map was discussed but considering CA 7 is present it would put it sometime in 1934:

« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 12:27:11 AM by Max Rockatansky »
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NE2

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Re: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them
« Reply #131 on: December 31, 2016, 12:10:15 AM »

123, 185, and 238 only make sense if the law is defining an East Bay branch.
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cahwyguy

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Re: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them
« Reply #132 on: December 31, 2016, 12:22:02 AM »

Well, then if the law is in error, we should find someone willing to correct the definition. After all, we've had such luck with correcting the legislative definitions of other highways  :-D [Seriously, I"ll just put a note in the page for 162, and see if anyone notices]
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Re: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them
« Reply #133 on: December 31, 2016, 01:58:57 AM »

It doesn't seem that the year of the map was discussed but considering CA 7 is present it would put it sometime in 1934:


That's this map: http://archive.org/stream/californiahighwa193436calirich#page/n275/mode/2up
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them
« Reply #134 on: December 31, 2016, 10:03:23 AM »

It doesn't seem that the year of the map was discussed but considering CA 7 is present it would put it sometime in 1934:


That's this map: http://archive.org/stream/californiahighwa193436calirich#page/n275/mode/2up

That's interesting, that map also seems to suggest 168 was complete to Florence Lake using Kaiser Pass Road before the implied route through Sierra begins.

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Re: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them
« Reply #135 on: December 31, 2016, 02:30:39 PM »

Here's a question.  Of the Trans-Sierra Routes that do exist.  Which is the best on in terms of scenery and driving experience?
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Quillz

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Re: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them
« Reply #136 on: December 31, 2016, 02:35:58 PM »

Here's a question.  Of the Trans-Sierra Routes that do exist.  Which is the best on in terms of scenery and driving experience?
CA-120 is the most scenic, IMO. But its probably the worst from a driving experience since you have to pay the Yosemite park fee.

When driving back from the Tahoe area, I took US-50 which is a nice drive along the American River canyon. Slower than I-80, of course, but certainly not a bad alternative.

I've not driven on CA-88, but this is said to be another scenic route. I can see it being useful for northbound motorists wanting to to to Tahoe, they can use it as a cutoff.
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them
« Reply #137 on: December 31, 2016, 02:59:08 PM »

Here's a question.  Of the Trans-Sierra Routes that do exist.  Which is the best on in terms of scenery and driving experience?

That depends here is how I would rank them upon certain criteria:

Ease of travel

1.  CA 58 Tehachpi Pass
2.  I-80 Donner Summit/Old US 40 Donner Pass
3.  CA 178 Walker Pass

Most Scenic

1. CA 120 Tioga Pass
2. CA 108 Sonora Pass
3. Sherman Pass

Best driving experience

1.  CA 4 Ebbetts Pass
2.  CA 108 Sonora Pass
3.  Sherman Pass

I rate my criteria for the driving experience based off the variance in the route you are likely to get coupled with solitude.  None of my top three would be something you could mow through but require your attention and skill.  I guess that I'm a sucker for difficult drives and the thrill they bring. 

To me that makes for a rewarding drive.  As far as scenery it is very difficult to beat seeing Half Dome, Tuolummne Meadows, and Lee Vining Canyon all on Tioga Pass Road/CA 120.  108 over Sonora Pass is a lot closer than you'd might expect with the diverse terrain and old structures like the Dardenelle Bridge on it. Sherman Pass has the Kern River Canyon, Mount Whitney Overlook, and Nine Mile Canyon.

Really at the end of the day you can't really go wrong with much in the Sierras if you want scenery.  The freeway and expreeway routes can be incredibly boring but general still offer some fantastic view points.  I'd probably say 88 has the best balance of the three criteria I listed above, ease of travel, scenery, and not fall asleep at the wheel levels of road engagement without being too threatening.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 03:03:33 PM by Max Rockatansky »
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Inyomono395

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Re: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them
« Reply #138 on: January 01, 2017, 02:04:53 PM »

Were there ever plans for horseshoe meadows road to be CA 190?
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them
« Reply #139 on: January 01, 2017, 03:09:07 PM »

Were there ever plans for horseshoe meadows road to be CA 190?

It would seem that it would have been absorbed had 190 been built to US 395 over the Sierras:

http://www.cahighways.org/185-192.html#190

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Re: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them
« Reply #140 on: January 05, 2017, 01:39:38 PM »

Here's a question.  Of the Trans-Sierra Routes that do exist.  Which is the best on in terms of scenery and driving experience?

Sonora and Ebbetts Passes' big plus from my point of view is that the big RVs and trailers don't use them...
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them
« Reply #141 on: January 05, 2017, 02:25:42 PM »

Here's a question.  Of the Trans-Sierra Routes that do exist.  Which is the best on in terms of scenery and driving experience?

Sonora and Ebbetts Passes' big plus from my point of view is that the big RVs and trailers don't use them...

I would be amusing to watch someone try though.  I think a short length RV might make it if it had a diesel.

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Re: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them
« Reply #142 on: January 05, 2017, 06:48:46 PM »

Here's a question.  Of the Trans-Sierra Routes that do exist.  Which is the best on in terms of scenery and driving experience?

Tioga Pass/120, yeah. As long as you're okay paying the exorbitant park entrance fee.
I would put Sonora over Ebbetts after that, but I think they're pretty similar.
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Re: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them
« Reply #143 on: January 08, 2017, 02:59:34 AM »

Visited Pinnacles for the first time today. CA-146 has no physical connection within the park itself. The eastern entrance seems to be better developed and more popular. The western segment of CA-146, on the other hand, is single-laned in places and not recommended for larger vehicles. Seems odd to me that the same number was applied to two very different roads (in terms of quality), especially when there is no way to connect them, not even a proposal. All the other routes that have discontinuous segments at least have "on paper" connections.

I did notice the mile markers for the eastern half of CA-146 start at 13, whereas the western half ends around milepost 12. So there isn't even implied mileage through the park itself.
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them
« Reply #144 on: January 08, 2017, 08:11:54 AM »

Visited Pinnacles for the first time today. CA-146 has no physical connection within the park itself. The eastern entrance seems to be better developed and more popular. The western segment of CA-146, on the other hand, is single-laned in places and not recommended for larger vehicles. Seems odd to me that the same number was applied to two very different roads (in terms of quality), especially when there is no way to connect them, not even a proposal. All the other routes that have discontinuous segments at least have "on paper" connections.

I did notice the mile markers for the eastern half of CA-146 start at 13, whereas the western half ends around milepost 12. So there isn't even implied mileage through the park itself.

Actually you were hitting some familiar territory for me:

http://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19260.msg2195764#new

Basically you hit on what my main question was about the eastern CA 146; specifically where it ends.  From what you said it appears to end at the National Park Boundary meaning that the eastern stub is less than a mile.  On Reply 22 it shows the difference between Pinnacles National Monument and the National Park.  It appears CA 146 on the eastern side ended at what was the Pinnacles Wilderness previously.

Basically both roads were part of LRN 120 and never had an implied connector from the get-go.  I want to say it is the "La Gloria Road" thread, it appears that the Old Pinnacles Trail was part of a previous Spanish horse trail through the Gabilans.  I would imagine that trail above the Balconies Caves probably was part of that older Spanish route.  Also touched on the eastern route on this thread:

http://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19417.0

Just out curiosity, how the hell did you get out there with all that rain?  I thought the forecast was bad on my last trip to the western half of Pinnacles, I want to say the Gablian and Diablo Ranges got 2-4 inches of rain yesterday and through the night. 

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Re: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them
« Reply #145 on: January 08, 2017, 12:09:28 PM »

It was raining when I was driving on CA-25 into the part, and raining when I was walking in the park. But it wasn't all that heavy, at least in the time I was there.
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them
« Reply #146 on: January 08, 2017, 12:19:40 PM »

It was raining when I was driving on CA-25 into the part, and raining when I was walking in the park. But it wasn't all that heavy, at least in the time I was there.

Yeah it was pretty steady up in Fresno where I spent the weekend.  I guess Tulare County had a flood warning through most of the night yesterday.  At least the snow pack will be pretty good this year if this keeps up, should be cool to see how much water comes down Yosemite Falls and if any of these reservoirs fill up. 

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Re: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them
« Reply #147 on: January 08, 2017, 05:47:53 PM »

CA-710 gap is the most famous example at I-210 @ CA-134 interchange to connect to I-710 in East LA.
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Re: Discontinuous California Routes.... and the plan to never complete them
« Reply #148 on: January 16, 2017, 07:38:02 AM »

CA-710 gap is the most famous example at I-210 @ CA-134 interchange to connect to I-710 in East LA.

But there are plans to complete this with toll tunnels and whatnot.  Caltrans understands how critical this link is to the metro LA freeway system, even if the neighboring cities (other than Alhambra) don't want this freeway.  The question is whether those plans would ever get approved.

The more rural examples listed upthread will never be connected and probably should be renumbered as two separate highways.
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