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Author Topic: Which future Phoenix freeways will be built, and which ones won't?  (Read 3303 times)

Sonic99

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I thought about this over the weekend while I was down in the Valley. I saw construction getting rolling on the 10 where the 202 will join up, so that project is going. But there's other future projects that I really wonder about, and wonder what will ultimately look like a waste.

    Northern Parkway - I love this little freeway since I've got a friend in the area and it's awesome to be able to jump up to the 303 and get out of the Valley in peace, but any future progress seems to have vanished. The websites basically say the future is "under review". So will it ever be built past its current ending at Dysart Road? And will the current section end up being basically a "freeway to nowhere"?
    • AZ 24 - This tiny stub comes off of the 202 and goes about a mile to Ellsworth Rd. Very little talk about the future of this freeway. Basically it's a glorified flyover ramp to Ellsworth. The Gateway Airport area has seen growth, but it's been fairly quiet in the aftermath of the recession. Will it ever be continued?
    • Loop 303 - The freeway is obviously already built, but the northern section has all those places where they built in future interchanges in anticipation of growth to the north. But that growth has almost stagnated as well in that direction. So will all those provisions for future ramps be for nothing, and basically be "ghost ramps" forever?

    Anyone have any thoughts on the future of the Phoenix freeway system? Other proposed freeways that may never see a shovel?

    The interesting thing is considering the current system. For the most part, the entire system designed in 1985 eventually got built. The only casualties were the Paradise freeway (AZ 50, proposed to run along Camelback from the 101 in Scottsdale to the 101 in Glendale) and the Grand Ave freeway (eventually turned into a handful of overpasses to eliminate some of the 6 way intersections, but never made freeway status). Everything else eventually happened.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 11:49:08 PM by andy3175 »
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dvferyance

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Re: Which future Phoenix freeways will be built, and which ones won't?
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2017, 01:17:52 PM »

I highly doubt AZ-303 will ever be a full freeway at least not entirely.
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pumpkineater2

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Re: Which future Phoenix freeways will be built, and which ones won't?
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2017, 08:58:14 PM »

I think we will eventually see growth along the 303, it's just going to take longer than expected. Developments are slowly creeping up. As for the interchange with I-17, it is obvious that it was built with the intent for it to eventually be a full interchange with direct ramps and such. You can see on satellite images how the northbound frontage road is curved to give room to a ramp that isn't there yet. Westbound 303 immediately west of I-17 has an overpass to allow for an eastbound 303 to northbound 17 ramp, as is also the reason for the two I-17 bridges just north of the interchange. I think the 303 is supposed to have its southern terminus at the Hassyampa Freeway, but as far as I'm concerned, that freeway is just a fairy tale, as there aren't even any feasibility studies for it on ADOT's website.

I do hope that SR 30 gets built, even if it has to be a toll road. I think there will at least be an effort. An alternative to I-10 between SR 85 and the new loop 202 (I have seen some plans that have it going all the way to I-17 at the Durango curve) would be invaluable to motorists.

It's too bad Grand ave. isn't a freeway, it would serve us well.
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dfwmapper

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Re: Which future Phoenix freeways will be built, and which ones won't?
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2017, 09:54:21 PM »

Arizona's biggest barrier to all of that is money. Maricopa and Pima Counties have 1/2 cent sales tax bumps to pay for transportation, but the rest of the state relies on ADOT, and ADOT has about enough money in its budget to maintain the existing system but not do a whole lot of expansion. And, msot of that sales tax money is already allocated to existing projects. Further extension of AZ 24 mostly depends on the Pinal North-South Freeway being built to give it something to connect to, and that probably won't happen without either tolls or Pinal passing their own tax, which is a tough thing to do because a lot of the people who live in Pinal County do so in order to avoid the taxes and other bullshit (e.g. emissions testing) that comes with living in the city. But, we've got a new guy in the White House who talks about wanting to spend money on infrastructure, and so that might open things up.
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: Which future Phoenix freeways will be built, and which ones won't?
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2017, 10:01:43 PM »

I don't really see the projected growth along the 24 corridor that everyone in Pinal County seems to think will happen.  It would have made more sense to have 24 go to San Tan Valley rather than the projected route to US 60/AZ 79.

Sonic99

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Re: Which future Phoenix freeways will be built, and which ones won't?
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2017, 11:14:40 PM »

Arizona's biggest barrier to all of that is money. Maricopa and Pima Counties have 1/2 cent sales tax bumps to pay for transportation, but the rest of the state relies on ADOT, and ADOT has about enough money in its budget to maintain the existing system but not do a whole lot of expansion. And, msot of that sales tax money is already allocated to existing projects. Further extension of AZ 24 mostly depends on the Pinal North-South Freeway being built to give it something to connect to, and that probably won't happen without either tolls or Pinal passing their own tax, which is a tough thing to do because a lot of the people who live in Pinal County do so in order to avoid the taxes and other bullshit (e.g. emissions testing) that comes with living in the city. But, we've got a new guy in the White House who talks about wanting to spend money on infrastructure, and so that might open things up.

Not to bring politics into this, but all the talk of rebuilding infrastructure has me curious as to just how in depth that could go. If somehow a program got going that kickstarted a rebuild and modernization of the highway system, there are a lot of projects that never seem to make the final cut that would be very useful (i.e. lots of rural highway projects and upgrades that are sorely needed but never seem to get the attention of the ADOT people as a priority).
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kdk

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Re: Which future Phoenix freeways will be built, and which ones won't?
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2017, 03:29:46 AM »

Good topic here, I always hear different things about these too.  Working in the Phoenix area in the real estate and development industry these future freeways always come up as a topic so I try to find out as much as I can.

We have been in a slow development period still, but back as recent as 2007 they were looking for ways to fast track a lot of these still unbuilt freeways.  I think when development picks back up again, and it is starting to gain some traction, a lot of these will seem more realistic.  There has already been talk of putting up for a vote to extend the half cent sales tax in Maricopa County which runs out in 2025 but to pass it well before to fund these long term projects.

Here's what I know and think-
Northern Parkway, actually it will get built up to the 101 and most likely to Grand Eventually.  Some construction to start later this year actually.
There was some recent news here on the status and timeline- http://www.yourwestvalley.com/glendale/article_77aedb20-c61b-11e6-854f-3fed227ce178.html

Loop 303- I just did some research on the extension south of Van Buren- seems a few years out but it will end up at least to MC-85, and line up with the AZ 30 alignment.  Looks like will happen in 2020 per ADOT.  It will connect further south somewhere, but most likely into the I-11 plans.

AZ 30- That's needed already, and with the completion of the 202/SMF it makes even more sense to link into the 303 and create a bypass that avoids most of the urban I-10 traffic without going to far south.  I expect to see more of a push on this one soon.  The industrial area on the SW side of town is booming right now and truck traffic will continue to increase on I-10.  I'm already seeing industrial development planned touting access to the future AZ 30.

AZ 24- This one is a little more difficult to estimate timing, but I think it will get built beyond the stub.  The plan here was for the when the state announced they were going to start selling off the massive amount of state land to the east of here just across the Pinal County line.  That area is as large as Tempe/Mesa/Chandler/Gilbert combined and can all be developed.  The state won't auction that off though until demand increases for it and pricing comes back, so we may have another decade to go on it in my opinion.

Pinal North/South freeway- I added this one in too.  I don't see this one happening too soon, most likely won't be needed until after the 24, but I actually think it would be a good reliever to I-10 in the Gila Reservation area, for most of us in the Phoenix area it would be a more attractive route to get to I-10 when traveling to Tucson.  But I think this will be the last one built.

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Pink Jazz

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Re: Which future Phoenix freeways will be built, and which ones won't?
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2017, 01:03:21 PM »

Arizona's biggest barrier to all of that is money. Maricopa and Pima Counties have 1/2 cent sales tax bumps to pay for transportation, but the rest of the state relies on ADOT, and ADOT has about enough money in its budget to maintain the existing system but not do a whole lot of expansion. And, msot of that sales tax money is already allocated to existing projects. Further extension of AZ 24 mostly depends on the Pinal North-South Freeway being built to give it something to connect to, and that probably won't happen without either tolls or Pinal passing their own tax, which is a tough thing to do because a lot of the people who live in Pinal County do so in order to avoid the taxes and other bullshit (e.g. emissions testing) that comes with living in the city. But, we've got a new guy in the White House who talks about wanting to spend money on infrastructure, and so that might open things up.

As for tolls on the Pinal North-South Freeway it is not going to happen as ADOT did a toll feasibility study and the decision was that tolls would not be feasible.  While Florence would have supported a toll road if built, Coolidge was downright against it, and probably Coolidge's opposition to tolls is part of the reason of what led ADOT to that conclusion.

A similar toll feasibility study is currently in the process for SR 30.  A decision should be made sometime this spring whether or not tolls will be feasible for the route.
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Sonic99

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Re: Which future Phoenix freeways will be built, and which ones won't?
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2017, 12:56:24 AM »

Thanks for the info on the Northern Parkway. Glad to see at least something is happening moving forward. I agree that the 303 will probably end up from AZ 85 up to I-17, but whether they actually build the full freeway-to-freeway interchange at I-17 might be interesting to see moving forward. And the 7 future interchanges on the northern segment that were built in to the 303, I could see maybe 3 of them ever happening?

I think SR 30 is a very viable project, but I think 24 and the Pinal N-S freeway probably won't happen anytime within the next 25 years.
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_Demote

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Re: Which future Phoenix freeways will be built, and which ones won't?
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2017, 06:24:47 PM »

Loop 303 is said to go down to I-8. It is supposed to be a Phoenix Bypass
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Sub-Urbanite

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Re: Which future Phoenix freeways will be built, and which ones won't?
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2017, 05:25:23 PM »

Does there come a point where outward growth is negligible because A) of distance and B) of the general rules of radial expansion?

On point B - what I mean is this. Phoenix extends roughly 25 miles in each direction – give or take a few here or there. Going to 26 miles is an addition of 160 square miles of urbanization. Going to 27 miles is another 166 square miles of urbanization. Going to 28 is another 173 square miles… and so on.

That's more than double the rate of construction it took to fill out the 101 Loop, which is ≈ 15 miles out.

My point being, unless the rate of growth increases significantly, outward growth is going to take a lot longer than what's been experienced in the past.

Then there's the other factor. At a certain point, the human psyche is limited on how far it's willing to go to get to work. As long as the bulk of jobs, warehouses, etc., are in the 10 corridor from 99th Ave to the 60, humans are going to try to live within a half-hour drive of that. So things like the Williams Gateway are going to be of limited usefulness in the long run unless there's significant job growth in the East Valley.

I mean, I'm not saying nothing's going to get built. Northern Parkway is a good example, and there certainly is a need for more outward connections (AZ 85, I-11, the South Mtn Freeway). Just that it's unlikely to be as dramatic as it was the last 30 years.
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: Which future Phoenix freeways will be built, and which ones won't?
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2017, 03:12:15 PM »

Here are my two cents: Time will tell!
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DJStephens

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Re: Which future Phoenix freeways will be built, and which ones won't?
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2017, 10:36:28 PM »

The mountains that are interspersed in the Phoenix metro area certainly muddy the waters to a certain degree.  Development tends to follow established corridors outward from the central core, as dictated by central place theory.   
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kdk

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Re: Which future Phoenix freeways will be built, and which ones won't?
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2017, 11:56:47 PM »

The mountains that are interspersed in the Phoenix metro area certainly muddy the waters to a certain degree.  Development tends to follow established corridors outward from the central core, as dictated by central place theory.

Very true, which is why development isn't circular- and also land ownership.  Example- there are hundreds of square miles of empty land just south of US 60 as soon as you cross from Maricopa County into Pinal County- south of Apache Junction.  This land has convenient freeway access and a reasonable commute, yet the areas 12 miles + south in San Tan Valley has developed while this area hasn't.  The reason is this is state owned land that wasn't sold, while the San Tan Valley area was private land and was able to be sold to development.  Same thing on how the Valley won't grow much more to the northeast.
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Sub-Urbanite

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Re: Which future Phoenix freeways will be built, and which ones won't?
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2017, 12:26:21 AM »

Very true, which is why development isn't circular- and also land ownership.  Example- there are hundreds of square miles of empty land just south of US 60 as soon as you cross from Maricopa County into Pinal County- south of Apache Junction.  This land has convenient freeway access and a reasonable commute

A reasonable commute to where!??!
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: Which future Phoenix freeways will be built, and which ones won't?
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2017, 12:31:54 AM »

Very true, which is why development isn't circular- and also land ownership.  Example- there are hundreds of square miles of empty land just south of US 60 as soon as you cross from Maricopa County into Pinal County- south of Apache Junction.  This land has convenient freeway access and a reasonable commute

A reasonable commute to where!??!

People in the Valley think anything up to 25 miles is a reasonable commute...

howlincoyote2k1

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Re: Which future Phoenix freeways will be built, and which ones won't?
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2017, 12:50:42 AM »

The mountains that are interspersed in the Phoenix metro area certainly muddy the waters to a certain degree.  Development tends to follow established corridors outward from the central core, as dictated by central place theory.

Very true, which is why development isn't circular- and also land ownership.  Example- there are hundreds of square miles of empty land just south of US 60 as soon as you cross from Maricopa County into Pinal County- south of Apache Junction.  This land has convenient freeway access and a reasonable commute, yet the areas 12 miles + south in San Tan Valley has developed while this area hasn't.  The reason is this is state owned land that wasn't sold, while the San Tan Valley area was private land and was able to be sold to development.  Same thing on how the Valley won't grow much more to the northeast.

The major obstacles to Northeast growth are the Salt River reservation, and the terrain starts to get pretty rugged up that way too. McDowell Mountain Park is up there too. There might some areas north of the park that might be feasible for growth though.
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kdk

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Re: Which future Phoenix freeways will be built, and which ones won't?
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2017, 01:59:55 AM »

Very true, which is why development isn't circular- and also land ownership.  Example- there are hundreds of square miles of empty land just south of US 60 as soon as you cross from Maricopa County into Pinal County- south of Apache Junction.  This land has convenient freeway access and a reasonable commute

A reasonable commute to where!??!

I was thinking in comparison to people who live 15 miles south of the 60, then commute up 15 miles or more just to get to the freeway to then commute another 25 or more miles to Tempe or Phoenix.  East Mesa seems more reasonable to some (not me) than some of those places way down there
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roadiejay

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Re: Which future Phoenix freeways will be built, and which ones won't?
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2017, 10:54:10 AM »

Very true, which is why development isn't circular- and also land ownership.  Example- there are hundreds of square miles of empty land just south of US 60 as soon as you cross from Maricopa County into Pinal County- south of Apache Junction.  This land has convenient freeway access and a reasonable commute

A reasonable commute to where!??!

I was thinking in comparison to people who live 15 miles south of the 60, then commute up 15 miles or more just to get to the freeway to then commute another 25 or more miles to Tempe or Phoenix.  East Mesa seems more reasonable to some (not me) than some of those places way down there

I was under the impression that vast emptiness south of AJ, north of Santan is under state trust ownership and currently unavailable for development.
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kdk

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Re: Which future Phoenix freeways will be built, and which ones won't?
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2017, 04:50:33 PM »

Very true, which is why development isn't circular- and also land ownership.  Example- there are hundreds of square miles of empty land just south of US 60 as soon as you cross from Maricopa County into Pinal County- south of Apache Junction.  This land has convenient freeway access and a reasonable commute

A reasonable commute to where!??!

I was thinking in comparison to people who live 15 miles south of the 60, then commute up 15 miles or more just to get to the freeway to then commute another 25 or more miles to Tempe or Phoenix.  East Mesa seems more reasonable to some (not me) than some of those places way down there

I was under the impression that vast emptiness south of AJ, north of Santan is under state trust ownership and currently unavailable for development.

Technically that is still the case, but it was to be auctioned off back in 2007 then put on hold and being talked about again-
http://www.pinalcentral.com/trivalley_dispatch/news/superstition-vistas-past-present-and-visions-for-the-future/article_1b85bee9-054c-572a-a318-32da1295aa3c.html

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