Atlanta

[Tomahawkin]

Im All In for a Toll of a out perimeter like Houston has done with theirs (Not sure if its tolled but I believe it is). The Infrastructure is sooo Fubar out here Most of the interchanges along I-285 for example are outdated by 20-25 years, especially the interchanges with IH-20

[WashuOtaku]

Also, a second beltway would probably be more useful for long-distance commuters who are trying to bypass the city. Its usefulness to locals would be quite limited, I'd imagine.

Who the hell needs to commute from one extreme side of Metro Atlanta to the other?  I'm guessing maybe a few, but by no means a large number of people; typically a person moves closer to the place they work, not drive from Chattanooga to Macon to work at Hardees. 

[iBallasticwolf2]

Also, a second beltway would probably be more useful for long-distance commuters who are trying to bypass the city. Its usefulness to locals would be quite limited, I'd imagine.

Who the hell needs to commute from one extreme side of Metro Atlanta to the other?  I'm guessing maybe a few, but by no means a large number of people; typically a person moves closer to the place they work, not drive from Chattanooga to Macon to work at Hardees. 

Jobs are so limited these days you might just have to make that commute!

[ATLRedSoxFan]

It's been 40 some odd years, but I think it was slated as I-875.

[codyg1985]

But I'd love to see an I-220 someday because I don't think I-20 has any beltways along its route at all.)

There is an I-220 in Jackson, MS and Shreveport, LA and there is an I-820 in Fort Worth, TX.

I wouldn't mind seeing I-220, though. Or an I-620.

[Tom958]

I wouldn't mind seeing I-220, though. Or an I-620.

Yeah. In Augusta. 

What I would mind seeing is more mostly-clueless musings about the Outer Perimeter in this thread. I wish someone would start a new thread about it rather than continue to muck up this one. 

[Tomahawkin]

Also, a second beltway would probably be more useful for long-distance commuters who are trying to bypass the city. Its usefulness to locals would be quite limited, I'd imagine.

Who the hell needs to commute from one extreme side of Metro Atlanta to the other?  I'm guessing maybe a few, but by no means a large number of people; typically a person moves closer to the place they work, not drive from Chattanooga to Macon to work at Hardees. 

Another Outer perimeter is necessary for all of the Truck Traffic as well as all the traffic that goes through Atlanta to either get to Florida, The Beaches in the Carolinas as well as the gambling spots in Southern Mississippi. Living in Downtown Atlanta now, I see so many people going to and from Florida on weekends its insane especially on Fridays when the rush hour starts at 1pm out here....

[Tom958]

Crossposted from Erroneous Road Signs, where, to my amazement, no one said anything about it. 

You may remember this from a few months ago, with the two lanes of I-285 seemingly directed onto Chamblee Tucker Road:



Now it has a brother downstream, which I saw for the first time yesterday, and which I'd driven past by the time I realized how epic the fail I'd just witnessed was.  Today, it's my gift to all of you:   

Spoiler below...



The split arrow is over the fifth lane on the new sign. The fourth lane is the one that splits, as shown correctly on the previous sign.   

[formulanone]

Crossposted from Erroneous Road Signs, where, to my amazement, no one said anything about it. 

You may remember this from a few months ago, with the two lanes of I-285 seemingly directed onto Chamblee Tucker Road:



Now it has a brother downstream, which I saw for the first time yesterday, and which I'd driven past by the time I realized how epic the fail I'd just witnessed was.  Today, it's my gift to all of you:   

Spoiler below...



The split arrow is over the fifth lane on the new sign. The fourth lane is the one that splits, as shown correctly on the previous sign.   

It's southbound cousin appears correct, as of last Friday:



But...I-285 can't seem to make up its mind which direction it wishes to be signed.







At least it's consistent on I-75...right?

[xcellntbuy]

Those new Interstate BGS are getting bigger and bigger in my new home State.  Reminds me of the ever larger BGS behemoths on the Florida's Turnpike that were erected for the new exit 54 system of HOT lanes for Interstate 595 before I fled for Georgia last August.

[OracleUsr]

Those cardinal directions on the 675 sign don't look to spec.  Am I right or am I just seeing things?

[Eth]

Those cardinal directions on the 675 sign don't look to spec.  Am I right or am I just seeing things?

Neither are the arrows. But hey, at least the sign is factually correct, so it's doing relatively well overall.

[Tom958]

But...I-285 can't seem to make up its mind which direction it wishes to be signed

Last time I checked, 285 is signed east-west from Cobb Parkway to Chamblee-Tucker and from I-20 east to I-85 south. W/E.

Your two photos of I-75: I took the same photos yesterday, on a road trip to check out the reversible toll road construction. Hopefully I'll get around to posting my photos before too long. 

[Tom958]

Many times I've tried and failed to adequately photograph the I-285-Memorial Drive interchange in all of its vastly overblown glory. This time, though, I'm satisfied with the pics I took. Maybe it's just that my standards are falling. 

Once upon a time, GDOT had a plan to add three lane collector-distributor roads to about seventy miles of freeways across the northern half of Atlanta, as was done with ON 401 in Toronto. There are quite a few places where visible provision for the CD's was made, but this site is both the most elaborate in terms of what the design would've been like if not for the CD's, and the most nonsensical in terms of timing: by the time this was built, it was abundantly clear that the regional CD system never would be.

I'm northbound on 285. Look at the size of those retaining walls on the left:





Here you can see that in addition to the CD's, room has been made for a wider mainline, at least ten lanes with full shoulders. To my chagrin, the bay for the southbound CD has now been landscaped. I think that qualifies as the most expensive planter in the state. 



One-lane offramps now extend under the original (c. 1967) bridge carrying Rockbridge Road over 285. Doubling the width of the roadway envelope essentially doubled the length of the ramps, too. Oh, well. At least they didn't replace that bridge, too.

[2Co5_14]

In the middle of a hot Georgia summer, hell has frozen over: Georgia's decades-old policy of making all signs on a given gantry the same height has been broken by this sign and its brother just upstream.
...

I'm totally in favor of the new policy if in fact the policy has been changed. That said, it seems really strange to change policy midway through the current huge signage replacement program. Speaking of which, there are yet-to-be-installed signs for the Downtown Connector stockpiled nearby, including a blue one for Grady Hospital and another APL for I don't know where.

I just took a GDOT class on signing & marking, and the original policy of equal height sign panels does NOT appear to be changed (based on their manual).  I guess these signs just slipped through the cracks. 

[Tom958]

I just took a GDOT class on signing & marking, and the original policy of equal height sign panels does NOT appear to be changed (based on their manual).  I guess these signs just slipped through the cracks. 

Or maybe updating the manual slipped through the cracks. 

[Tom958]

Last Sunday I took a short road trip to see the reversible toll roadway construction on I-75 in Henry County, south of Atlanta. And the new Lithonia bypass. And whatever. We'll just see what I get around to posting.

Starting with I-75: I decided to head from Lithonia via I-20, I-285 and I-675 to I-75, then make a U-turn back toward Atlanta at Locust Grove, where the Tanger Outlets are.

This photo is of the new bridge carrying Walt Stephens Road over I-75 just south of the merge from I-675. The general traffic lanes will be moved to the right and the reversible roadway will, with one exception, be on the southbound side adjacent to the median. The new bridge is symmetrical about the centerline of 75 in order to preserve the option of building a second tolled roadway on the northbound side someday. IIRC, the fourth lane is relatively recent, with auxiliary lanes being added between 675 and Hudson Bridge Road within this decade. At first glance I was chagrined to see how similar what Google has was to my photo, but... look closer, Tom. The noise barrier in Streetview sits atop a wall with nothing on it in your pic. 



Next, Hudson Bridge Road. When this part of I-75 was built in the late '60's, this was two short bridges with a mound of earth between them. When the bridge was rebuilt, the earth mound was removed and the center span added. Of course, the reversible roadway will run through the center span. I don't remember, but this bridge must've been twinned at some point: it has eleven lanes now, which seems like a lot.



The Jodeco Road overpass has bays for two lane CD roads both northbound and southbound, but no obvious intent to ever build  them. Apparently that's my theme for this week.  EDIT: wait... maybe they could do a Parclo B4 there!



Here's the Jonesboro Road bridge. Unsurprisingly, the reversible roadway and the relocated southbound roadway will take up all of the available room and still require some modest design exceptions (I read the project concept report a while back, but I'm too lazy to look it up now).



I'm gonna go out of sequence and show the same bridge northbound. It and all other interchange bridges from GA 36 near Jackson to GA 54 at Morrow were replaced starting in the '90s-- hence the wide right side clearances.



This is the Mount Carmel Road bridge, which is the last surviving original bridge in the project area. I included it to give you an idea of the scale of the project out of nostalgia. 



Headed back northbound, this is (I think) an access point to the reversible roadway. Here's Google's view to the east.



With Hudson Bridge Road in the distance, here's the one spot where the reversible roadway will run adjacent to the northbound lanes instead to the southbound, which surely will complicate future construction of a second roadway. IIRC from the project concept report, water quality in a stream running through the wide, wooded median was a factor in deciding to do it that way. You're kidding, right?



Approaching the I-675 split. Originally this wide median was provided in order to allow a left side entrance from GA 400 to I-75 southbound. Eventually 400 became I-675 and left hand entrances fell out of favor, so the median provided a bit of greenery-- until now. The diagrammatic (big arrow) sign... I guess it's new, being replaced with current generation signage before GDOT began its infatuation with APL signs. Which reminds me...



Backing up half a mile or so to right before Walt Stephens Road, I'm stealing this photo from formulaone.



Last for now, the abutments for the ramps to I-675. Of course, that's the flyover for southbound 675 just beyond.

[Tom958]

Triple post. Meh.

Continuing north on I-75: As I mentioned earlier, all of the interchange bridges (except for I-675-- oops!) over I-75 from GA 36 to GA 54 have been replaced since the '90's. Here's the one at GA 54. The southward-oriented ramps are really long-- I think that the intent was to allow a second folded diamond interchange to be built at South Lee Street, on the other side of the railroad from GA 54. What do you think?



Next is US 19-41, Old Dixie Highway. The original bridge still exists here, though it was widened in 1988. Beyond is the ramp from Tara Boulevard onto I-75, which was the axis of Atlanta's first superhighway, c. 1945. The portion of 75 from which this photo was taken was opened in 1967 or so. Tara Boulevard used to enter 75 from the left, but it was moved to the right in 1995. More on that below...



I-75 from Tara Boulevard to I-285 is the most cobbled-together section of metro Atlanta's freeway system. Here you see a flyover ramp from GA 85 onto I-75 northbound, which was built in 1987. A few years after it was built, a plan was put together to widen the segment to twelve lanes, with part of the work being done in the '90's and the rest being deferred indefinitely. Obviously, this ramp would have to go...



...as would this, the Forest Parkway bridge over I-75, built in... 1959! 



Stealing formulaone's photo again, this is a bit further north. Quite a funkadelic display here: new style, but with the pre-2009 MUCTD split white/black arrows for a two lane exit and another non-uniform height sign that slipped through the cracks.



North of 285 on the CD road. Yes, there are two signs for Porsche Avenue, both of which look like crap. What an impressive way to welcome Atlanta's newest high profile corporate citizen. 



OT, but this is what used to be a Mark Inn at I-75 and Central Avenue in Hapeville. It's been there for as long as I can remember and reached considerable depths of scuzziness, but you can see it's been renovated. The interesting thing about it is that it was built backwards on the site. The dark strip below the Best Western sign is the trackway for a glass elevator. It was supposed to overlook the downtown skyline, not the Ford plant.   

Oh, well, now it overlooks the landing paths at the world's busiest airport, plus Porsche's zippy new building. Eventually things work out OK, lol.



Doubling back toward the south because of the signage I spotted on the southbound CD. The arrows used to be all white-- the exit only tabs are new. I don't know whether I hate it or not, which...for me considering Georgia freeway signage is high praise. 





The new(ish) international terminal at Hartsfield-Jackson. I like the poured in place concrete box girder ramp, which, after a brief golden age in the late '70's-mid '80's, GDOT flat out doesn't do anymore.



Finally, I-75 at Cleveland Avenue, approaching the offramp for GA 166. This used to have an option lane, but was restriped as a double lane drop to give I-85 two lanes instead of one where it merges into I-75.

[Tom958]

Regardless, as I have found out living here for the past year now, Georgia is tight with a buck when it comes to its highway plans.

Not always. 

But...I-285 can't seem to make up its mind which direction it wishes to be signed

Last time I checked, 285 is signed east-west from Cobb Parkway to Chamblee-Tucker and from I-20 east to I-85 south. W/E.

I had a look at this, and the new APL's approaching 85 actually alternate: first south, then east, then south again. The ones on the CD all say south, though, possibly because they explicitly refer to 285 after Chamblee-Tucker.

[afguy]

A new interchange is coming to Gwinnett at I-85 and Hamilton Mill Road...
http://commuting.blog.ajc.com/2015/09/05/new-interchange-to-be-constructed-on-i-85-in-gwinnett/

[Tom958]

A new interchange is coming to Gwinnett at I-85 and Hamilton Mill Road...
http://commuting.blog.ajc.com/2015/09/05/new-interchange-to-be-constructed-on-i-85-in-gwinnett/

Here's the bridge that's there now. Well, half of it: it's so enormously long that it's impossible to photograph all of it from one spot because it extends so far past the treeline on both sides. I guess it needs to be wider, like that eleven lane one in Henry County I posted about a couple of weeks ago. Whatever. 



IIRC, while an interchange at GA 324 seems obvious, I think that the idea for many years was to build one at the Northern Arc and GA 124 instead, which would not have require CD roads along 85 or the Arc. I need to find (in this thread-- yay!) that project concept report about Sugarloaf Parkway in this area.

EDIT: Afone's megapost of project concept report links, posted on Valentines Day 2015. 

There's a project number for the GA 324 interchange, but I can't find the report, if there is one. And... I misremembered: the Sugarloaf Parkway report doesn't depict an interchange at 324 despite the provision of space for CD roads when the current bridge was built. Meanwhile, this display from the HOT lane extension project shows an interchange there, but with no additional bridge width.



2nd EDIT: Here's the Project Concept Report, which reads:

" GDOT PI #1112698/GCDOT project F-0782-01 proposes four new ramps to create a new location, full access diamond interchange with the existing overpass of (noncontrolled access) SR 324/ Gravel Springs Road over (controlled access) I-85/SR 403. The interchange will be situated between the existing SR 20/Buford Drive and Hamilton Mill Road interchanges at MP 118 within Gwinnett County. No new bridge or bridge widening is proposed by this project (See Major
Structures table below)."

Which in turn reads:

"The existing bridge will be retained and incorporated into the proposed project concept. The existing (32 ft.) raised median that is on the bridge will be removed to create room for 1-2 left turn lanes and an 8 ft. wide raised median with the ramp terminal intersections on each side of the bridge."

[Tom958]

Double post. Try not to laugh at my poor search skills, but in researching the above post today I found this:

http://www.dot.ga.gov/BuildSmart/Programs/Documents/SSTP/Reports/AttachmentC-SB200.pdf


which is the key to navigating this:

https://gtas.dot.ga.gov/


So, I'll be pretty insufferable for a while as I chaw through project concept reports and find interesting stuff like...

The I-85-GA 74 interchange will be rebuilt as a Parclo B4 with the more heavily traveled loop ramp being two lanes, the parclo ($36.6m) having bested a DDI ($27m) during evaluation. Don't get too excited-- it has largely to do with project specific factors including availability of ROW and the condition of the bridges carrying GA 74 over I-85. That said, the project concept report stated:

"This project is also to include bike access.  The DDI, with the lane / traffic shifts, would require bikes to be
accommodated on the inside of the lane versus along the outside of the lane where it is preferred."

How could a parclo with free-flowing ramps possibly be better for bikes than a DDI? 

Anyway, here's the layout. Right is north, toward Atlanta. As you can see, the ramps to and from the north will extend through the side spans of the Spence Road bridge to the north. Not as visible is an oddity that now exists and will remain: the right northbound lane of 85 is striped away through the interchange to make it easier for traffic entering from GA 74 to merge. Going to a split northbound offramp will make it look more like they meant to do it that way. 



And,on a completely unrelated topic: Remember that APL in downtown Atlanta that didn't actually have an arrow per lane?



Well, now it does. 

[Eth]

I noticed something today that seemed odd. This is Peachtree Street, looking north toward 16th.



What I'm looking at here in particular is the mile marker on that lamppost over on the right. To the best of my knowledge, this part of Peachtree has not been a state highway in at least 75 years (US 19/SR 9 join Peachtree about 2 1/2 blocks downstream). So what is the mile marker referring to? Some other observations:

- One mile north of here would be somewhere between 25th and 26th Streets. This is, as I mentioned, part of SR 9, which would presumably fall under normal GDOT mileposting rules (around milepost 2.2 or so). I see no marker there, though neither do I see one at any of the locations where I would expect SR 9's first three mileposts.
- One mile south of here is roughly the intersection with 5th Street. No mile marker there either.
- There is, however, one thing that does line up: the course for the Peachtree Road Race, held annually since 1970. Mile marker 5 matches up just about exactly. But it's only posted northbound, and the race course runs southbound, so I'm skeptical even of that. (And I couldn't find a mile marker 6 in the appropriate place on 10th Street, either.)

The mile marker and the lamppost it's mounted on have both been present since at least 2010 per Street View, but don't seem to have been there in 2007 (though as blurry as 2007-era imagery is, it's hard to say).

[Tom958]

In my inbox today:

In response to your inquiry IMS000000072246 submitted on 8/4/2015 3:59:13 PM to Georgia Department of Transportation:

Mr. 958,
Thank you for contacting YOUR Georgia Department of Transportation. We received your inquiry and appreciate you writing in to us. The Department has met with the construction office and have informed the contractor to fix the issues you mentioned.

Thanks,
Customer Service Unit
Georgia DOT

________________________________
Name:   Tom958
Phone/Email:    678******* / blomi@gmail.com
Contact Method: Email
GDOT District:  7          County: Dekalb

Subject Area:   Suggest a Project or Quick Fix
Your Comments:  LOCATION: I-285 northbound approaching Chamblee Tucker Road and I-85

PROBLEM:
The newly installed arrow per lane sign H341 has the split arrow over the fifth, rightmost lane instead of over the fourth lane as H345 correctly does. H341 therefore shows an incorrect lane configuration, which defeats the purpose of having APL signage. Also, there's no exit only legend warning of the upcoming dropping of the fourth lane as the Chamblee Tucker exit as there is at H345.

Also, H345's arrows are drawn in a way that makes it appear that two of 285's four lanes will be directed onto Chamblee Tucker Road. I don't see a lot that can be done with that other than giving Chamblee Tucker Road a name that's short enough to fit in the correct area of the sign. I suppose there was quite a bit of discussion about that during the design process, which makes it all the more amazing that H341 turned out as it did.

PROPOSED FIX:
Correct the abovementioned issues, and do a better job of design and pre-installation checking.

Crossposted from Erroneous Road Signs, where, to my amazement, no one said anything about it. 

You may remember this from a few months ago, with the two lanes of I-285 seemingly directed onto Chamblee Tucker Road:



Now it has a brother downstream, which I saw for the first time yesterday, and which I'd driven past by the time I realized how epic the fail I'd just witnessed was.  Today, it's my gift to all of you:   

Spoiler below...



The split arrow is over the fifth lane on the new sign. The fourth lane is the one that splits, as shown correctly on the previous sign.   

[Tomahawkin]

Was in Cobb county yesterday and it still looks like the 75 toll lanes won't be completed til a year from now? Still a lot of bridge work left to do at the Cobb cloverleaf including added work on the ramp from 75N to 285 west (the partial cloverleaf where drivers have to go 25 mph). It will be interesting to see what's the next elevated toll lane project will be once this is complete?