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Author Topic: Is "rush hour" declining?  (Read 7336 times)

Brandon

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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #75 on: November 29, 2018, 04:16:50 PM »

I've driven the entire length of the Grand Concourse in The Bronx without ever stopping because of benefitting from the synchronized signals.

Palm Springs is where old people and the concept of synchronized signals go to die

Regarding synchronized signals, I think we have Palm Springs beat for the complete and total lack of them.  IDOT seems to believe that every signal needs to be actuated in some way, shape, or form, across the entire fucking state.
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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #76 on: November 29, 2018, 04:21:43 PM »

I've driven the entire length of the Grand Concourse in The Bronx without ever stopping because of benefitting from the synchronized signals.

Palm Springs is where old people and the concept of synchronized signals go to die

Regarding synchronized signals, I think we have Palm Springs beat for the complete and total lack of them.  IDOT seems to believe that every signal needs to be actuated in some way, shape, or form, across the entire fucking state.

Signals here are usually actuated. However, with no street grid, it's more justifiable.
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tradephoric

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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #77 on: November 29, 2018, 04:57:40 PM »

I've driven the entire length of the Grand Concourse in The Bronx without ever stopping because of benefitting from the synchronized signals.

Keep in mind that any 2 way street can be timed perfectly for one direction of travel.  Maybe you were just fortunate enough to be driving in the "right" direction.  Looking at the geometry of the Grand Concourse through the Bronx it doesn't seem humanly possible to achieve good signal progression for both directions of travel.  That's what makes this continuous drive below so impressive to me... driving 20 miles from Detroit to Pontiac without hitting a red light... only to flip around and drive another 20 miles from Pontiac back down to Detroit still without hitting any red lights.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 05:03:02 PM by tradephoric »
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thenetwork

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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #78 on: November 29, 2018, 05:45:15 PM »

As long as Denver limps along on the rebuilding and/or widening of their core interstates, you can expect rush-hour conditions on most Interstate highways nearly every day of the week.

Oddly enough, it seems like every freeway that DOESN'T carry an Interstate shield around metro Denver is a lot easier to drive more often than 25, 70, 76, 225 and 270.

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jakeroot

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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #79 on: November 29, 2018, 10:59:10 PM »

IDOT seems to believe that every signal needs to be actuated in some way, shape, or form, across the entire fucking state.

Signals here are usually actuated. However, with no street grid, it's more justifiable.

I'm pretty sure most new signals, even in CA, are actuated. Problem is, they're not often connected to other signals, so signal progression can be bad. Connected, actuated signals can actually provide decent signal progression, assuming the engineers are clever.

I've driven the entire length of the Grand Concourse in The Bronx without ever stopping because of benefitting from the synchronized signals.

Palm Springs is where old people and the concept of synchronized signals go to die

You can safely expand the latter to the entire state. I've never driven anywhere in CA that had any sort of signal synchronization Perhaps downtown LA or San Francisco, but I haven't driven in those places for some time. Signal engineers in CA have it pretty easy: "install a protected left for all directions, lead the left turn movements, lag the through movements, repeat".
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 11:01:12 PM by jakeroot »
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jakeroot

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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #80 on: November 29, 2018, 11:06:08 PM »

I've driven the entire length of the Grand Concourse in The Bronx without ever stopping because of benefitting from the synchronized signals.

Keep in mind that any 2 way street can be timed perfectly for one direction of travel.  Maybe you were just fortunate enough to be driving in the "right" direction.  Looking at the geometry of the Grand Concourse through the Bronx it doesn't seem humanly possible to achieve good signal progression for both directions of travel.  That's what makes this continuous drive below so impressive to me... driving 20 miles from Detroit to Pontiac without hitting a red light... only to flip around and drive another 20 miles from Pontiac back down to Detroit still without hitting any red lights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mb2R2fPB1nE

The only thing Michigan has proved, is that signal progression is easily achieved with two-phase signals. Any road can have great signal progression, but that progression relies almost exclusively on the abandonment of any protected turn phasing.

In Vancouver, a fair number of arterial roads have zero protected left turn phasing. Signal progression for straight-through traffic is usually quite good, but left turn capacity is limited (during rush hour) to the occasional gap + two at the end. So, it can take quite a few phases if the left turn is backed up. On the roads with pro/per signals, TOD phasing is decently common; the green arrow activates during rush hour, limiting the chance of straight-through green progression, but does not activate during off-peak hours, to keep progression good during hours when left turn queuing is less likely.
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jdbx

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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #81 on: November 30, 2018, 02:27:18 PM »

You can safely expand the latter to the entire state. I've never driven anywhere in CA that had any sort of signal synchronization Perhaps downtown LA or San Francisco, but I haven't driven in those places for some time. Signal engineers in CA have it pretty easy: "install a protected left for all directions, lead the left turn movements, lag the through movements, repeat".

San Francisco does a pretty good job of coordinating signal timing on arterials.  Good examples would be 19th Ave, or the Oak/Fell and Franklin/Gough pairs.  In fact, Valencia St has the signal timing coordinated for a 13 MPH through speed to favor cyclists getting the "green wave"
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TheStranger

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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #82 on: November 30, 2018, 02:50:07 PM »

You can safely expand the latter to the entire state. I've never driven anywhere in CA that had any sort of signal synchronization Perhaps downtown LA or San Francisco, but I haven't driven in those places for some time. Signal engineers in CA have it pretty easy: "install a protected left for all directions, lead the left turn movements, lag the through movements, repeat".

San Francisco does a pretty good job of coordinating signal timing on arterials.  Good examples would be 19th Ave, or the Oak/Fell and Franklin/Gough pairs.  In fact, Valencia St has the signal timing coordinated for a 13 MPH through speed to favor cyclists getting the "green wave"


IIRC, Great Highway along the ocean (which has no automobile grade crossings between Sloat Boulevard and Lincoln Way, but numerous crosswalks) has signal timing for 37.5 MPH.

There are some other minor arterial streets in the Mission District that have low-speed green wave timing, I feel like either Bryant or Folsom near Cesar Chavez Street is where I saw the tiny green signs identifying the target speed.
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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #83 on: November 30, 2018, 06:46:11 PM »

I traveled somewhere within the last year or two that actually had signs indicating the speed at which one could travel and hit all green lights, and I canít for the life of me remember where it was.
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jakeroot

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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #84 on: December 01, 2018, 02:26:11 AM »

You can safely expand the latter to the entire state. I've never driven anywhere in CA that had any sort of signal synchronization. Perhaps downtown LA or San Francisco, but I haven't driven in those places for some time. Signal engineers in CA have it pretty easy: "install a protected left for all directions, lead the left turn movements, lag the through movements, repeat".

San Francisco does a pretty good job of coordinating signal timing on arterials.  Good examples would be 19th Ave, or the Oak/Fell and Franklin/Gough pairs.  In fact, Valencia St has the signal timing coordinated for a 13 MPH through speed to favor cyclists getting the "green wave"

IIRC, Great Highway along the ocean (which has no automobile grade crossings between Sloat Boulevard and Lincoln Way, but numerous crosswalks) has signal timing for 37.5 MPH.

There are some other minor arterial streets in the Mission District that have low-speed green wave timing, I feel like either Bryant or Folsom near Cesar Chavez Street is where I saw the tiny green signs identifying the target speed.

I may not be being entirely fair. I'm sure coordinated streets exist in CA, they just seem to be rare. In my experience, though most signals run with actuation, they don't seem to "talk" to neighboring signals that aren't less than thirty feet away. Granted, it's hard to coordinate green waves with left turn signals, so even those states that use lots of coordination don't always have Michigan-style green waves like we all love; just seems to me that CA does coordination the worst, outside of urban cores.

I traveled somewhere within the last year or two that actually had signs indicating the speed at which one could travel and hit all green lights, and I canít for the life of me remember where it was.

https://sf.streetsblog.org/2011/01/06/green-wave-becomes-permanent-on-valencia-street/

Mostly for bikes but works for cars too! Ironic this comes from CA given my above comment. :-|
« Last Edit: December 01, 2018, 02:28:29 AM by jakeroot »
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abefroman329

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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #85 on: December 01, 2018, 06:39:06 AM »

You can safely expand the latter to the entire state. I've never driven anywhere in CA that had any sort of signal synchronization. Perhaps downtown LA or San Francisco, but I haven't driven in those places for some time. Signal engineers in CA have it pretty easy: "install a protected left for all directions, lead the left turn movements, lag the through movements, repeat".

San Francisco does a pretty good job of coordinating signal timing on arterials.  Good examples would be 19th Ave, or the Oak/Fell and Franklin/Gough pairs.  In fact, Valencia St has the signal timing coordinated for a 13 MPH through speed to favor cyclists getting the "green wave"

IIRC, Great Highway along the ocean (which has no automobile grade crossings between Sloat Boulevard and Lincoln Way, but numerous crosswalks) has signal timing for 37.5 MPH.

There are some other minor arterial streets in the Mission District that have low-speed green wave timing, I feel like either Bryant or Folsom near Cesar Chavez Street is where I saw the tiny green signs identifying the target speed.

I may not be being entirely fair. I'm sure coordinated streets exist in CA, they just seem to be rare. In my experience, though most signals run with actuation, they don't seem to "talk" to neighboring signals that aren't less than thirty feet away. Granted, it's hard to coordinate green waves with left turn signals, so even those states that use lots of coordination don't always have Michigan-style green waves like we all love; just seems to me that CA does coordination the worst, outside of urban cores.

I traveled somewhere within the last year or two that actually had signs indicating the speed at which one could travel and hit all green lights, and I canít for the life of me remember where it was.

https://sf.streetsblog.org/2011/01/06/green-wave-becomes-permanent-on-valencia-street/

Mostly for bikes but works for cars too! Ironic this comes from CA given my above comment. :-|
I think that was it! I was there last May.
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kphoger

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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #86 on: December 03, 2018, 01:36:38 PM »

I traveled somewhere within the last year or two that actually had signs indicating the speed at which one could travel and hit all green lights, and I canít for the life of me remember where it was.

They used to have those signs in Monclova, Coahuila.  Old GSV here.
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tradephoric

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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #87 on: December 03, 2018, 03:26:26 PM »

https://sf.streetsblog.org/2011/01/06/green-wave-becomes-permanent-on-valencia-street/

Mostly for bikes but works for cars too! Ironic this comes from CA given my above comment. :-|

According to the picture in the article the "bicycle green wave" is timed for 13 mph.  With 580 ft block spacing, it takes 30 seconds to travel a blocks at 13 mph.  So to achieve perfect bicycle green waves in both directions the lights would have to be running 60 second cycle lengths. 

While we're on the subject Portland is probably the best example of bicycle green waves in America.  It's a little different to the San Fran example as Portland is a network of one-way streets, but it's still relevant.  Here's a post i made about Portland's green wave in a previous thread:

Many downtowns in America have uniform one-way grids.  One example is Portland, Oregon.  The traffic signals in downtown Portland are timed so that traffic progresses in a slow but steady speed in all directions.  This is possible because of something known as quarter cycle offsets and is discussed by a Portland engineer at rEvolving Transportation:

Quote
Signal Timing Using Quarter Cycle Offsets in Downtown Portland
A similar method of manual coordination timing can be applied to downtown grid networks. This method has been deployed in downtown Portland, Oregon by separating intersections into a quarter cycle offset pattern. The block spacing in downtown Portland is fairly uniform and relatively short (280 feet) and the grid is a one-way network. Each subsequent intersection is offset by a quarter of the cycle length, which is selected to progress traffic in both directions. The result is a progression speed that is dependent upon the cycle length. This approach establishes a relationship in both directions of the grid and permits progression between each intersection in each direction based on the speed that is a result of the selected cycle length and the block spacing. As shown in Figure 6-18 cross coordination throughout the grid is achieved using the quarter cycle offset method. This approach can be adjusted to account for turning movements within the grid and subtle modifications to the distribution of green time.



In downtown Portland, the p.m. peak hour cycle length is 60 seconds, which results in a 15 second time difference between subsequent intersections. To travel the 280 feet in 15 seconds, one must travel (280'/15sec) or 18.67 feet per second or 13 miles per hour. The lower the cycle length, the faster the travel speed. Thus, Downtown Portland has progression in multiple directions at a slow speed which is especially good for buses that are accelerating from a stop, cars that can drive through at a consistent speed and come to a quick stop if someone in front of them pulls out of a driveway unexpectedly, and reasonable for people travelling on bicycles to use the lane and move along the signals without stopping every 280 feet. The short cycle length is also important in the condition that you have a high percentage of turning traffic that can result in queue spillback between the intersections. Short cycle lengths give an opportunity to keep traffic moving. There's a longer debate on short cycle lengths, but the important element of block spacing is a big part of that  debate.
http://koonceportland.blogspot.com/2010/10/portland-tribune-article-on.html

Visually here is an aerial model of Portlandís downtown grid.  The turning movements have been removed to highlight the through platoon coordination.  Also there is about a 30 minute video of a guy cruising around downtown Portland to give a sense of how the signals are timed.

I put together a chart that looks at the relationship between grid spacing, cycle length, and speeds that allow for good progression in all directions along a one-way grid.  In the Portland example, the blocks are spaced 280 feet apart, the signals are timed for 13 mph, and the signals have 60 second cycle lengths.  You can now use this chart to estimate how downtowns with different block spacings may time their signals.

   

*Only pedestrian friendly cycle lengths are included in this chart (ranging from 60 seconds to 100 seconds).  Shorter cycle lengths are considered more pedestrian friendly as it allows pedestrians to cross the street without having to wait very long.  But there is a limit to how short a cycle length can be.  Pedestrians still need enough to time to safely cross the street and cycle lengths of 60 seconds are about as short as you can practically run.  As the width of downtown streets gets wider, the cycle length must increase to allow pedestrians to safely cross.  Portland is capable of running short cycles the pedestrian crossing widths are relatively short, but this isnít possible in cities with wider streets.  Part of the reason why Portland has short crossing widths is because they have very short block spacing.   You donít need 6-lane wide streets to move traffic if there is a street every 280 feet apart. 

*Only grid spacing of up to 600 feet are included in the chart.  The practicality of downtown one-way street networks diminishes as the block size increases.  Salt Lake City has big block sizes of about 800 feet and the majority of streets in Salt Lake City runs two-way.

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djsekani

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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #88 on: December 03, 2018, 06:38:47 PM »

I've driven the entire length of the Grand Concourse in The Bronx without ever stopping because of benefitting from the synchronized signals.

Palm Springs is where old people and the concept of synchronized signals go to die

You can safely expand the latter to the entire state. I've never driven anywhere in CA that had any sort of signal synchronization Perhaps downtown LA or San Francisco, but I haven't driven in those places for some time. Signal engineers in CA have it pretty easy: "install a protected left for all directions, lead the left turn movements, lag the through movements, repeat".

Los Angeles supposedly has signals synced up across the entire city, but driving down any major thoroughfare during rush hour you wouldn't know it. To be honest, the left-turn signals and heavy pedestrian traffic in many areas are a pretty significant impediment to consecutive green lights.
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TechZeke

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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #89 on: December 03, 2018, 07:29:47 PM »

When I lived in the Inland Empire(Rialto) in SoCal, if I were in LA or Orange County and didnít leave to go back by 1:00pm it was going to take 2+ hours to get back.

Iíd argue that rush hour starts before 2:00pm in LA.

Eastbound I-10(Especially through Covina), I-210, CA-60, and CA 91 are all nightmares early in the afternoon.

In the mornings, the traffic gets worse in the IE for each minute past 5am.

Fridays are an interesting weekday. Friday mornings are noticeably light, but Friday afternoons are horrendous. By 1:30pm I-10 is a parking lot, even past Montclair.

Since moving to the San Antonio, TX area, the traffic here is much more tolerable. You can still get reasonably around even around 4pm depending on where youíre going.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 08:33:18 AM by TechZeke »
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djsekani

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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #90 on: December 04, 2018, 12:27:16 AM »

When I lived in the Inland Empire(Rialto) in SoCal, if I were in LA or Orange County and didnít leave to go back by 1:00pm it was going to take 2+ hours to get back.

Iíd argue that rush hour starts before 2:00pm in LA.

Eastbound I-10(Especially through Covina), I-210, CA-60, and CA 91 are all nightmares early in the afternoon.

In the mornings, the traffic gets worse in the IE for each minute past 5am.

Fridays are were an interesting weekday. Friday mornings are noticeably light, but Friday afternoons are horrendous. By 1:30pm I-10 is a parking lot, even past Montclair.
In the Inland Empire, rush hour is now from about 4-9 am in the morning and 3-9 pm in the evening.
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bing101

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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #91 on: December 15, 2018, 10:34:24 AM »

In the greater Bay Area, rush hour is not only persisting, it's actually expanding; whereas four years ago you'd find some freeways (such as I-880) to be cleared out in both directions by about 9:30 a.m, with congestion building up again about 3 p.m. -- now you're lucky not to run into residual traffic as late as 10:30-11 a.m. -- and the afternoon equivalent seems to build up about 2:30 p.m. these days.  The latter has been a greater Los Angeles phenomenon for decades, as the larger warehouse/distribution/fulfillment centers invariably have a shift change at 2:30 p.m. (3 daily shifts for around-the-clock operation); while the Bay area doesn't feature the massive distribution facilities found in SoCal (although the Valley region centered around Stockton appears to be on its way toward this status), the trend of more and more firms toward employee "flex time" is likely contributing to the midday congestion increase.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/04/25/nightmare-90-minute-super-commutes-more-common-housing-shortage-intensifies/

And Stockton leads the way for worst commutes.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/20/pr-rep-commutes-4-hours-every-day-to-avoid-45000-dollar-san-francisco-rent.html

Also in this link you have a person from Solano county who has to battle with both Sacramento and Bay Area rush hour commutes from Dixon to get to his job in Downtown San Francisco.


https://www.ozy.com/good-sht/the-secret-to-a-cheap-commutein-silicon-valley/81137


And this there's also an article where they mention that there are people from San Francisco that have to commute to San Jose.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 11:16:58 AM by bing101 »
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djsekani

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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #92 on: December 24, 2018, 12:58:45 PM »


And Stockton leads the way for worst commutes.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/20/pr-rep-commutes-4-hours-every-day-to-avoid-45000-dollar-san-francisco-rent.html

Also in this link you have a person from Solano county who has to battle with both Sacramento and Bay Area rush hour commutes from Dixon to get to his job in Downtown San Francisco.


https://www.ozy.com/good-sht/the-secret-to-a-cheap-commutein-silicon-valley/81137


And this there's also an article where they mention that there are people from San Francisco that have to commute to San Jose.

What a lucky guy. I know several people who have three-plus-hour commutes one way. At one of my old jobs I would leave home at 4:30 am and not get back until after 10 pm. Being away from home for a mere 14 hours (counting the commute) sounds like bliss.
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webny99

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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #93 on: December 24, 2018, 01:06:17 PM »

At one of my old jobs I would leave home at 4:30 am and not get back until after 10 pm. Being away from home for a mere 14 hours (counting the commute) sounds like bliss.

Being away from home for 16+ hours every day, allowing less than 8 for sleep, sounds... unsustainable, to say the least.
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bing101

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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #94 on: December 24, 2018, 05:16:55 PM »



Yes even Train did a song called Get to Me where they even had a verse about Bay Area Commutes as their reference.
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bing101

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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #95 on: February 01, 2019, 10:17:08 AM »


And Stockton leads the way for worst commutes.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/20/pr-rep-commutes-4-hours-every-day-to-avoid-45000-dollar-san-francisco-rent.html

Also in this link you have a person from Solano county who has to battle with both Sacramento and Bay Area rush hour commutes from Dixon to get to his job in Downtown San Francisco.


https://www.ozy.com/good-sht/the-secret-to-a-cheap-commutein-silicon-valley/81137


And this there's also an article where they mention that there are people from San Francisco that have to commute to San Jose.

What a lucky guy. I know several people who have three-plus-hour commutes one way. At one of my old jobs I would leave home at 4:30 am and not get back until after 10 pm. Being away from home for a mere 14 hours (counting the commute) sounds like bliss.




https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/04/bend-oregon-is-becoming-one-of-silicon-valleys-top-commuter-towns.html


Yes oddly enough Bend, Oregon is mentioned as a commuter city for San Jose even though the distance is bigger than the distance of a section I-5 from Sacramento to Los Angeles.
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danthecatrafficlightfan

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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #96 on: February 11, 2019, 01:17:47 PM »

no rush hour traffic is the opposite in fresno due to the fact 10 years ago we didn't have traffic unless there was wreck  now traffic is unavoidable!

also this crossbuck crossing is gone replaced with cantilevers with twelve by twenty four lights and e-bells also while this doesn't have anything to do with rush hour traffic wrecks weren't  common but traffic was. in fact the first train i recall on this line was at this crossing with three tanker cars and a up locomotive even though it's a Sjvr line this will help traffic on our free ways for sure and it's about time for this crossing to get signals note thanks to my brother for this info!
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on the road again just can't wait to get on the road again because Life is a Highway and i want to ride it all night long. if you're going my way i want to drive it all night long.

bing101

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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #97 on: February 19, 2019, 08:33:31 PM »

http://extras.mercurynews.com/megaregion/?fbclid=IwAR30QHp2YkB28ncW-3vq2OPQXcNJMt-48QxeBnTvtKUf0qf9cr-yrwgoGtY

And another article on how NorCal is changing and forming one big Mega region.

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bing101

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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #98 on: March 18, 2019, 01:13:56 PM »

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Kulerage

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Re: Is "rush hour" declining?
« Reply #99 on: March 21, 2019, 07:48:25 PM »

Not at all. And there is a definite time for it; around 5 pm, as expected.
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