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Author Topic: Oregon  (Read 17751 times)

nexus73

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #225 on: May 29, 2019, 10:53:54 PM »

Was your comment directly relevant to the article? The way its written, it sounds like an advertisement, which may not be permitted by the Oregonian.

There's also a couple spelling errors in your comment. Not saying this was directly an issue, but it's possible that it was the deciding factor in someone reporting your comment; someone may have though that it was spam (since spam mail often contains spelling errors).

O-Live censorship is so random.  There is a censor HQ back east which handles a bunch of forums for a bunch of papers.  One complaint and POOF, there goes your post.  No one at that HQ is really reading the post and the ones associated with it to establish context.  Of course we already know that Silicon Valley is big into censoring conservative POV's on social media, which is bad enough, but when the censorship is as mindless as the type O-Live forums have, it goes beyond the pale.

Rick
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US 101 is THE backbone of the Pacific coast from Bandon OR to Willets CA.  Industry, tourism and local traffic would be gone or severely crippled without it being in functioning condition in BOTH states.

Hurricane Rex

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #226 on: May 30, 2019, 03:32:08 AM »

Public hearing happened recently on the HB 558 and HB 3029. One is mandatory widening to I-205 in the 4 lane segment. Another was the 20 in residential areas if cities approve. Then a lobbyist came up to testify against the I-205 widening. She claimed she wasn't but her language speaks otherwise. Her askings:

Decrease the interchange amount. I-205 is good on interchange spacing here, focus that on OR 217, I-84 and northern I-5.

Reconstruct interchanges so they take up less space. Thats going to be way too expensive for a less safe road.

More space in between cars. Actually support.

Freight only lanes. Need more info on.

Block off traffic during rush hour so freight can get through. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. Is that enough nos? That will make freight better yes, but forces 80,000 plus cars off the freeways, and they have to go somewhere.

Speed Limits 45 mph. WHAT???????? She contradicted herself too saying reduce speed limtis to 45, then said at peak times, its better to drive 45 than 60 so you don't go 10. There was not a mention of variable speed zones, so I will assume the 45 is at all times. Put another speed limit rant on Facebook. Here's what I had on this subject:

There was a lobbyist today talking about how widening lanes isn't the answer to congestion. Instead, reducing speed limits, increasing space in between and condensing interchanges is.
a. Condensing interchanges? We have no room to condense interchanges, and some are far substandard (looking at you I-84). Plus, do you know how much it is to condense every interchange? Likely around $100 billion.
b. Speed limits should be reduced. Okay when I heard this, I thought it was going to be to 55 mph on the interstates like it was in the 70s and 80s. But no, it was 45 mph on all roads. FORTY FIVE!!! How has that been working on the Bend Parkway (US 97)? Oh wait, the average speed is 55 mph, and 94% of drivers violate the speed limit (KTVZ (edit)). And 65 mph is working great as it is with a nice 20% compliance rate estimate (sarcasm intended). And no it will make congestion worse with a massive increase in accidents (Division street examples), causing traffic to slow back to 10 mph. Also, and again, drivers generally won't slow down, the 85% will stay 75 mph, and average will decrease slightly to probably 60 mph. That's a hazard for having the high range in speeds from the fastest 20% to the slowest 20% being 30-40 mph. That isn't to mention the massive increase in accidents, which I think will rise by 50% if that happens. So much for your Vision Zero Portland. And congestion will get worse. I think there will be a modest improvement if it is raised to 75 mph in rural areas (80 in eastern Oregon, but there is no congestion) and 60-75 in urban areas depending on location, and its lower cost than transit and widening the freeway.
c. Longer spaces in between cars: Its been tried educating the public on that, they won't listen, so good luck in trying. The only thing that could work is making them take the permit and drivers test every renewal.

Edit: Also from the rant but against a rep instead of this person:

6. One of the representatives said we can keep the flow of traffic smooth until electric cars become the norm. WHAT?? That has to be a joke right? Keep it smooth before and after, don't understand the kick the cars off when going all electric, that seems counter intuitive. (Yes I realize it wasn't a state rep, but was representing a city)

oregon.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?clip_id=26920

Skip to 56:00 for the person I'm taking about.

Somehow I didn't cuss through all that. 95 days and counting cuss free.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 01:04:36 PM by Hurricane Rex »
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ODOT, raise the speed limit and fix our traffic problems.

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nexus73

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #227 on: May 30, 2019, 11:03:30 AM »

It's okay to cuss Rex.  That is how things get done in Oregon.  Lots of 4-letter words...LOL!

I know.  I'm a native Oregonian.  Consider it your heritage.

Rick
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US 101 is THE backbone of the Pacific coast from Bandon OR to Willets CA.  Industry, tourism and local traffic would be gone or severely crippled without it being in functioning condition in BOTH states.

Sub-Urbanite

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #228 on: May 30, 2019, 11:47:25 AM »

Public hearing happened recently on the HB 558 and HB 3029. One is mandatory widening to I-205 in the 4 lane segment. Another was the 20 in residential areas if cities approve. Then a lobbyist came up to testify against the I-205 widening. She claimed she wasn't but her language speaks otherwise. Her askings:


She's not a lobbyist. You can easily search Oregon lobbyists, who are legally required to be lobbyists.

Every other word in the prior 40 minutes of testimony was in favor of the bill. Why are you sweating about one person's testimony?
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Hurricane Rex

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #229 on: May 30, 2019, 12:07:53 PM »



Public hearing happened recently on the HB 558 and HB 3029. One is mandatory widening to I-205 in the 4 lane segment. Another was the 20 in residential areas if cities approve. Then a lobbyist came up to testify against the I-205 widening. She claimed she wasn't but her language speaks otherwise. Her askings:


She's not a lobbyist. You can easily search Oregon lobbyists, who are legally required to be lobbyists.

Every other word in the prior 40 minutes of testimony was in favor of the bill. Why are you sweating about one person's testimony?

1. I get frustrated easily if someone is talking about speed limits and isn't correct, or is correct but thinking is flawed.
2. Yes, I know she's the only no opinion, but she doesn't recognize the second problem of seismic upgrades.
3. It wasn't but was almost a distraction to try to reduce limits.
4. I left portions of the rant out about the others opinion in support.
5. Crazy proposals always get the most attention, even from one person.

SM-J737T

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ODOT, raise the speed limit and fix our traffic problems.

Road and weather geek for life.

Running till I die.

sp_redelectric

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #230 on: June 03, 2019, 02:57:03 AM »

Freight only lanes. Need more info on.

Block off traffic during rush hour so freight can get through. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. Is that enough nos? That will make freight better yes, but forces 80,000 plus cars off the freeways, and they have to go somewhere.

I do not for the life of me understand this line of reasoning with a certain group of "advocates".  They hate freight rail for some reason (basically they hate oil trains and coal trains), but love passenger rail.  So they feel that roads should be for freight, and rail should be for passengers.

Never mind that most of Oregon's railroads would never be a suitable passenger route, and taking freight off the rails would mean a LOT more trucks on the roads (paid for by taxpayers, not private companies).
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Sub-Urbanite

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #231 on: June 03, 2019, 11:49:08 AM »

Freight only lanes. Need more info on.

Block off traffic during rush hour so freight can get through. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. Is that enough nos? That will make freight better yes, but forces 80,000 plus cars off the freeways, and they have to go somewhere.

I do not for the life of me understand this line of reasoning with a certain group of "advocates".  They hate freight rail for some reason (basically they hate oil trains and coal trains), but love passenger rail.  So they feel that roads should be for freight, and rail should be for passengers.

Never mind that most of Oregon's railroads would never be a suitable passenger route, and taking freight off the rails would mean a LOT more trucks on the roads (paid for by taxpayers, not private companies).

They hate oil trains because they leak and explode. They hate coal trains because said coal is going to be burned somewhere and contribute to our little planet-altering CO2 problem.

I have to say, I've often thought freight-only lanes on 205 might be a good idea. There's a ton of volume taken by freight and those companies hate the traffic jams even more than drivers do.
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Hurricane Rex

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #232 on: June 03, 2019, 01:08:48 PM »

Freight only lanes. Need more info on.

Block off traffic during rush hour so freight can get through. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. Is that enough nos? That will make freight better yes, but forces 80,000 plus cars off the freeways, and they have to go somewhere.

I do not for the life of me understand this line of reasoning with a certain group of "advocates".  They hate freight rail for some reason (basically they hate oil trains and coal trains), but love passenger rail.  So they feel that roads should be for freight, and rail should be for passengers.

Never mind that most of Oregon's railroads would never be a suitable passenger route, and taking freight off the rails would mean a LOT more trucks on the roads (paid for by taxpayers, not private companies).
I'm pretty sure at one time tri met proposed extended WES along freight rail to Salem. Don't know how that would've worked.

SM-J737T

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ODOT, raise the speed limit and fix our traffic problems.

Road and weather geek for life.

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Sub-Urbanite

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #233 on: June 03, 2019, 01:18:25 PM »

I'm pretty sure at one time tri met proposed extended WES along freight rail to Salem. Don't know how that would've worked.

There's often a bill in the Legislature (this year HB 2219) to move this forward.

WES was extraordinarily cheap to build – $166 million for 14 miles. The downside, of course, is the limited daytime service. Finishing the last 25 miles to Salem wouldn't be exorbitant; the bigger question is could you get enough service to make it worthwhile.
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sparker

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #234 on: June 03, 2019, 03:14:41 PM »

^^^^^^^^^
If I understand correctly, the tentative WES line is along the old Oregon Electric tracks (later owned by BNSF, but now owned by Genesee, the short-line conglomerate); it's primarily utilized for local service (on-line agriculture, lumber yards, etc.) rather than long-distance freight, which is primarily handled on the UP/former SP line to the east along OR 99E via Canby and Oregon City.  BTW, the line extends all the way down to Eugene via Albany (former electric interurban service, similar in concept to the old Sacramento Northern in northern CA).  If some arrangement could be made with Genesee, the line's owner, for scheduling WES over that line to avoid conflict with the sporadic freight movements, it would be considerably simpler than trying to do something over a more heavily trafficked line -- besides, the UP line currently hosts the regional Amtrak "Cascade" service as far south as Eugene. 

This may be construed as speculation -- but returning electric catenary to that line might be a long-term goal -- lower diesel particulate pollution, and the ability to employ electric MU trains -- which would render operation considerably more efficient in the process. 
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sp_redelectric

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #235 on: June 29, 2019, 01:42:28 AM »

WES was extraordinarily cheap to build – $166 million for 14 miles.

I wouldn't call that cheap, but yes - compared to MAX light rail, it was cheap.

The problem is, WES costs $16 per rider to operate.  The POINT buses that ODOT "supports" between Portland and Eugene?  They get $0 public subsidy, and the buses are run by private companies that pay weight-mile fees, income taxes, property taxes, vehicle registration fees, etc.  The only support from ODOT is a little bit of advertising and some coordination support with other providers, which amounts to pennies.

As for running WES to Salem:

ODOT (the State of Oregon) owns the Oregon Electric District right-of-way as far south as Quinaby, on the north side of Keizer; GWI (Genesee & Wyoming Industries, the owner of the Portland & Western Railroad) only owns the track hardware sitting atop the ballast.  This is also true for the segment of the track from Wilsonville north to Tigard.  (Tigard north to Beaverton is a bit more complicated.)

P&W only has more-or-less exclusive control of the track south of Quinaby, in which they lease the track and facilities from BNSF.

I highly doubt P&W would object in any way for more passenger trains south of Wilsonville since they would get a brand new railroad track for nothing, while retaining the rights to run their freight trains on it for free - just as they do from Wilsonville to Tigard.  Basically a free government handout to a private company.  Plus, P&W has the lucrative contract to run WES Commuter Rail, so their staff get paid and the profits roll in, regardless of who is riding the train.

The real problem is TriMet has cut bus service so much, that once you get off WES there's literally nowhere to go; Cherriots bus service in Salem is limited and doesn't even run on weekends (it will start running on Saturdays in September but not Sundays).  Wilsonville's SMART does a somewhat decent job of running a bus service that is tied into WES and serves the entire city (and is free!) but also doesn't run on Sundays.  The City of Woodburn is several miles east of the OE, since it grew up around the Southern Pacific mainline.

We'd be far better served with half hourly motorcoach/bus service from Portland to Salem, which would be cheaper, faster, better...and less costly for taxpayers.  When those buses have 55 warm bodies on each bus, on each trip, then come talk to me about trains.  As it is, Amtrak Cascades between Portland and Eugene averages fewer than 90 boardings per schedule, for a train that has over 300 seats.
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Hurricane Rex

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ODOT, raise the speed limit and fix our traffic problems.

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Running till I die.

nexus73

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #237 on: July 11, 2019, 11:32:57 PM »

WES was extraordinarily cheap to build – $166 million for 14 miles.

I wouldn't call that cheap, but yes - compared to MAX light rail, it was cheap.

The problem is, WES costs $16 per rider to operate.  The POINT buses that ODOT "supports" between Portland and Eugene?  They get $0 public subsidy, and the buses are run by private companies that pay weight-mile fees, income taxes, property taxes, vehicle registration fees, etc.  The only support from ODOT is a little bit of advertising and some coordination support with other providers, which amounts to pennies.

As for running WES to Salem:

ODOT (the State of Oregon) owns the Oregon Electric District right-of-way as far south as Quinaby, on the north side of Keizer; GWI (Genesee & Wyoming Industries, the owner of the Portland & Western Railroad) only owns the track hardware sitting atop the ballast.  This is also true for the segment of the track from Wilsonville north to Tigard.  (Tigard north to Beaverton is a bit more complicated.)

P&W only has more-or-less exclusive control of the track south of Quinaby, in which they lease the track and facilities from BNSF.

I highly doubt P&W would object in any way for more passenger trains south of Wilsonville since they would get a brand new railroad track for nothing, while retaining the rights to run their freight trains on it for free - just as they do from Wilsonville to Tigard.  Basically a free government handout to a private company.  Plus, P&W has the lucrative contract to run WES Commuter Rail, so their staff get paid and the profits roll in, regardless of who is riding the train.

The real problem is TriMet has cut bus service so much, that once you get off WES there's literally nowhere to go; Cherriots bus service in Salem is limited and doesn't even run on weekends (it will start running on Saturdays in September but not Sundays).  Wilsonville's SMART does a somewhat decent job of running a bus service that is tied into WES and serves the entire city (and is free!) but also doesn't run on Sundays.  The City of Woodburn is several miles east of the OE, since it grew up around the Southern Pacific mainline.

We'd be far better served with half hourly motorcoach/bus service from Portland to Salem, which would be cheaper, faster, better...and less costly for taxpayers.  When those buses have 55 warm bodies on each bus, on each trip, then come talk to me about trains.  As it is, Amtrak Cascades between Portland and Eugene averages fewer than 90 boardings per schedule, for a train that has over 300 seats.

Given the congestion on I-5 as one approaches the PDX metro area, using buses would not work well.  They would be delayed so much!  Transit systems are like chains, only as good as their weakest link.  Make everything strong enough to handle all weather conditions, capable of handling volume, run it 24/7/365 and people will ride.  Reliable service covering a large area is the key. 

Rick
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US 101 is THE backbone of the Pacific coast from Bandon OR to Willets CA.  Industry, tourism and local traffic would be gone or severely crippled without it being in functioning condition in BOTH states.

Sub-Urbanite

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #238 on: July 12, 2019, 12:02:20 AM »


Given the congestion on I-5 as one approaches the PDX metro area, using buses would not work well.  They would be delayed so much!  Transit systems are like chains, only as good as their weakest link.  Make everything strong enough to handle all weather conditions, capable of handling volume, run it 24/7/365 and people will ride.  Reliable service covering a large area is the key. 

Rick

Especially with the increasing congestion at the Boone Bridge and no reasonable way to address it. I mean, you could rebuild the Boone Bridge w/ Bus-only lanes on I-5 in the areas with the most congestion… but you're easily in the $500m-$1b range for a new Boone Bridge that doesn't really do much for congestion (even if it does improve seismic reliability and add a busway).
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Bickendan

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #239 on: July 12, 2019, 05:06:03 PM »

Part of the Boone Bridge's issue is that it's literally the only way for residents of Wilsonville's Charbonneau District to get into Wilsonville and vice versa. Some buildings would have to come down, but a Willamette crossing east of Wilsonville Memorial Park connecting SW French Prarie Road and SW Wilsonville Road wouldn't be a terrible idea.
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Sub-Urbanite

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #240 on: July 12, 2019, 05:26:23 PM »

Part of the Boone Bridge's issue is that it's literally the only way for residents of Wilsonville's Charbonneau District to get into Wilsonville and vice versa. Some buildings would have to come down, but a Willamette crossing east of Wilsonville Memorial Park connecting SW French Prarie Road and SW Wilsonville Road wouldn't be a terrible idea.

Or something connecting Boones Ferry Road across the river… the challenge is keeping people from using it as a bypass for I-5 congestion. (Modest toll exempting local residents?) Oh and paying for it.
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Bickendan

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #241 on: July 12, 2019, 05:37:48 PM »

Part of the Boone Bridge's issue is that it's literally the only way for residents of Wilsonville's Charbonneau District to get into Wilsonville and vice versa. Some buildings would have to come down, but a Willamette crossing east of Wilsonville Memorial Park connecting SW French Prarie Road and SW Wilsonville Road wouldn't be a terrible idea.

Or something connecting Boones Ferry Road across the river… the challenge is keeping people from using it as a bypass for I-5 congestion. (Modest toll exempting local residents?) Oh and paying for it.
Connecting Boones Ferry Road on both sides of the river would mean taking out the marina on the south bank, and Boones Ferry Park on the north one, and there could also be proximity issues with the rail bridge just to the west. Any crossings to the west of there defeats the purpose of being a local connection for Charbonneau and Wilsonville.
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Thunderbyrd316

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Re: Oregon
« Reply #242 on: July 20, 2019, 10:00:46 PM »

   I was on my way to work this morning when I came upon an interesting sight. (Note that I have been using 224 - 99E all this week because of the closure of the US 30 By-Pass westbound exit 23B but took 205 today because it was Saturday and knew I would not be late.)

   Well right between the Burnside and Glisan Street over-crossings sticking out of the ground on the right shoulder was part of what looks to be Oregon's first "tube" style sign gantry. (And of a fairly decent diameter too.) Then I saw some more on the ground off the shoulder up by the 84 East exit (22). Coming home this afternoon I saw several more, including one all the way down by Johnson Creek.

   The first time I personally recall seeing this style of gantry was in California on the 41 freeway in Fresno in the '80's though I saw one in a 1977 episode of CHiPs a while back that I somehow missed in the past. They are common in Utah and Colorado (and several other states) but they are pretty rare in Washington and until today I had NEVER seen one in Oregon.

   Since I happen to love this style of gantry I am happy Oregon is finally getting on board with these. Some good news out of this state for a change! (Though I do not really care for the grey color.)
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