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Author Topic: Navigation Apps Are Turning Quiet Neighborhoods Into Traffic Nightmares  (Read 5620 times)

Alps

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Paper maps would show that it's shorter, but not necessarily that it's faster.

Right; that's part of the "digesting and interpreting". So it's something to do with the use of the information, not the information itself.

These roads have always been there. Little difference in traffic. Waze becomes popular. Large increase in traffic.

Most people in the past had atlases or state maps. Few had county maps. Extremely few had county maps not for their own county.  So while the info had always been available, most didn't take the time to try to figure out a shorter route.

Now with Waze, they don't need to figure it out. They just listen and follow the directions. Heck, the options could change daily. The driver doesn't care...they may not even remember the route. Don't need to. Waze will tell them what to do tomorrow as well.

Exactly—you're honing in on it there. The information was always there, on paper maps, but few people bought them. And if they did, they didn't bother to use them. The traffic is a byproduct of these behaviors, not of the apps themselves. (Otherwise, it would also have been a byproduct of the paper maps.)

Huh?

No...it's a byproduct of the apps.

It's not really, though: it's a byproduct of the app's accommodation for people's laziness. If people were concerned enough to save time, they easily could have found the shortcut themselves using a paper map. The apps make people more likely to use the shortcut (by recommending it)... but the driver is solely to blame for not knowing about the available shortcut in the first place.
You can't read a paper map while driving (or shouldn't).

signalman

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It's not really, though: it's a byproduct of the app's accommodation for people's laziness. If people were concerned enough to save time, they easily could have found the shortcut themselves using a paper map. The apps make people more likely to use the shortcut (by recommending it)... but the driver is solely to blame for not knowing about the available shortcut in the first place.
You can't read a paper map while driving (or shouldn't).
There's also plenty of folks out there who don't know how to read a map.

webny99

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There's also plenty of folks out there who don't know how to read a map.

I know I'm influenced by being a roadgeek and all, but I have a hard time buying that.

signalman

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There's also plenty of folks out there who don't know how to read a map.

I know I'm influenced by being a roadgeek and all, but I have a hard time buying that.
I've seen it firsthand many times.  I give folks credit who can admit to it at least, instead of pretending that they can and end up getting lost as a result.

jeffandnicole

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It's probably a slight exaggeration, but I'd bet 25% of the gas used is by people not knowing where they're going, or going a longer route than necessary. It's amazing how lost people can get in their own hometown, much less on a road trip or vacation.
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kalvado

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You can't read a paper map while driving (or shouldn't).
Lots of things that people should be able to do - but they don't.
Such as...
If you cannot read check engine code, you shouldn't be driving!
If you cannot fix a flat tire, you shuldn't be driving!
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signalman

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Lots of things that people should be able to do - but they don't.
Such as...
If you cannot read check engine code, you shouldn't be driving!
If you cannot fix a flat tire, you shuldn't be driving!

Even more basic things that I've heard people (men no less) tell me that they don't know how to do:
1) Check tire pressure and add/remove air as necessary
2) Check oil and add some if needed

empirestate

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Paper maps would show that it's shorter, but not necessarily that it's faster.

Right; that's part of the "digesting and interpreting". So it's something to do with the use of the information, not the information itself.

These roads have always been there. Little difference in traffic. Waze becomes popular. Large increase in traffic.

Most people in the past had atlases or state maps. Few had county maps. Extremely few had county maps not for their own county.  So while the info had always been available, most didn't take the time to try to figure out a shorter route.

Now with Waze, they don't need to figure it out. They just listen and follow the directions. Heck, the options could change daily. The driver doesn't care...they may not even remember the route. Don't need to. Waze will tell them what to do tomorrow as well.

Exactly—you're honing in on it there. The information was always there, on paper maps, but few people bought them. And if they did, they didn't bother to use them. The traffic is a byproduct of these behaviors, not of the apps themselves. (Otherwise, it would also have been a byproduct of the paper maps.)

Huh?

What you said: "So while the info had always been available, most didn't take the time to try to figure out a shorter route."

Quote
No...it's a byproduct of the apps.

If it were a byproduct of the apps, it would also have been a byproduct of the maps, since the information had always been available that way, too. But if, as you also say, people were too lazy to figure out a shorter route in those days, then it's a byproduct of laziness.

I'm not sure that's the whole story, of course—as I say, you're honing in on it, but we're not quite there. The clue may lie in something else you said: "Waze becomes popular." If the traffic problem were a byproduct of Waze, then it would have occurred before Waze became popular. So there has to be more to it: what made Waze popular?
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jeffandnicole

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Ok, then using the good ol' World Wide Web, find me ONE story which says that residents became upset with motorists because the motorists read paper maps telling them about shortcuts around congested areas they their neighborhoods.

You're starting to grasp for straws honestly.
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Brian556

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A lot of the women that buy large items at Target don't even know how to fold down the seat in their own vehicles
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empirestate

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Ok, then using the good ol' World Wide Web, find me ONE story which says that residents became upset with motorists because the motorists read paper maps telling them about shortcuts around congested areas they their neighborhoods.

I don't know of any such stories; remember, the traffic isn't a byproduct of paper maps, so we wouldn't expect to find one.

You're starting to grasp for straws honestly.

How do you mean? It's getting clearer for me with every reply.
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jemacedo9

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But there's a big difference between paper maps and GPS systems...paper maps will tell you what shortcuts are available...but paper maps will not tell you real-time conditions on those short cuts.  I think someone alluded to this earlier...but if there is an accident or roadwork on one of the possible short-cuts, Waze/Google will be updated enough to route people away from that shortcut.

I know people here in the Philly area who use Waze daily on their commute...not because they don't know the various ways to go...but want to avoid the one-time issues.
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bzakharin

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Lots of things that people should be able to do - but they don't.
Such as...
If you cannot read check engine code, you shouldn't be driving!
If you cannot fix a flat tire, you shuldn't be driving!

Even more basic things that I've heard people (men no less) tell me that they don't know how to do:
1) Check tire pressure and add/remove air as necessary
2) Check oil and add some if needed
This is a really pompous and elitist attitude. If there are products or services that let you drive without knowing things then there is no reason to know them. Now I can read a map and check/add air (using the gas station machine, I don't own a gauge or pump). I look up "check engine" codes using my manual. Why would I need to memorize those? For oil changes I go to a mechanic. But I don't begrudge others if they know more/less than I do. As long as they know and follow rules of the road, I don't really care.

But there's a big difference between paper maps and GPS systems...paper maps will tell you what shortcuts are available...but paper maps will not tell you real-time conditions on those short cuts.  I think someone alluded to this earlier...but if there is an accident or roadwork on one of the possible short-cuts, Waze/Google will be updated enough to route people away from that shortcut.

I know people here in the Philly area who use Waze daily on their commute...not because they don't know the various ways to go...but want to avoid the one-time issues.
In theory, yes. In practice, Waze is too conservative in rerouting when there is a sudden accident/delay (it shows the delay with a simple beep instead of verbal message, but doesn't change the route), and when it does it often suggests sub-optimal local street bypasses for no reason (in my trials using it in Northeast Philly).
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 01:38:11 PM by bzakharin »
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MNHighwayMan

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Lots of things that people should be able to do - but they don't.
Such as...
If you cannot read check engine code, you shouldn't be driving!
If you cannot fix a flat tire, you shuldn't be driving!
Even more basic things that I've heard people (men no less) tell me that they don't know how to do:
1) Check tire pressure and add/remove air as necessary
2) Check oil and add some if needed
This is a really pompous and elitist attitude. If there are products or services that let you drive without knowing things then there is no reason to know them. Now I can read a map and check/add air (using the gas station machine, I don't own a gauge or pump). I look up "check engine" codes using my manual. Why would I need to memorize those? For oil changes I go to a mechanic. But I don't begrudge others if they know more/less than I do. As long as they know and follow rules of the road, I don't really care.

Yeah, I have to agree. I wonder if these people feel the same way about computer maintenance and repair…
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kalvado

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Lots of things that people should be able to do - but they don't.
Such as...
If you cannot read check engine code, you shouldn't be driving!
If you cannot fix a flat tire, you shuldn't be driving!
Even more basic things that I've heard people (men no less) tell me that they don't know how to do:
1) Check tire pressure and add/remove air as necessary
2) Check oil and add some if needed
This is a really pompous and elitist attitude. If there are products or services that let you drive without knowing things then there is no reason to know them. Now I can read a map and check/add air (using the gas station machine, I don't own a gauge or pump). I look up "check engine" codes using my manual. Why would I need to memorize those? For oil changes I go to a mechanic. But I don't begrudge others if they know more/less than I do. As long as they know and follow rules of the road, I don't really care.

Yeah, I have to agree. I wonder if these people feel the same way about computer maintenance and repair…

OK, finally we have some people who recognize that nobody is perfect!

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kalvado

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In theory, yes. In practice, Waze is too conservative in rerouting when there is a sudden accident/delay (it shows the delay with a simple beep instead of verbal message, but doesn't change the route), and when it does it often suggests sub-optimal local street bypasses for no reason (in my trials using it in Northeast Philly).
I had Waze saving a day for me in Chicago by rerouting around backup on something like a frontage road. SO it can help for sure.
For my commute, options are limited, and if there is a problem (always checking google maps before heading out! Evenings are more prone to problems in general), then working a bit late and/or some grocery  shopping may be a good idea. Waze does its best in rerouting for me, but there are only that many alternatives to 18 mile interstate dash...
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