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Author Topic: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?  (Read 3993 times)

1995hoo

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Re: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?
« Reply #50 on: August 28, 2018, 11:15:53 AM »

Wikipedia says it was re-posted in 1989, although I could've sworn we took a road trip there in 1990 or 1991 and the eastern half was still only I-95.  Maybe we just had an old road atlas.

Scott Kozel’s website says the same. Sounds right to me because I’m pretty sure it happened before I headed off to college.

You know, it’s funny, back when the number was not dual-signed, Virginia maintained the Beltway’s consecutive exit numbers despite the different route numbers. I’ve read, but do not recall, that VDOT briefly tried using I-95’s exit numbers from Springfield to the Wilson Bridge during that era but that people rebelled because it was bizarre to have exits 59, 60, and 61 ascending there while Exits 5 to 14 ascended in the other direction (towards the Legion Bridge). Those numbers didn’t last long. I don’t remember it at all.

I sometimes wonder if the split I-95/I-495 era is a major reason why people now seem to call it “the Beltway.” When I was a kid, people usually called it “495.” Nowadays I don’t hear that as often except from Bob Marbourg on WTOP.
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Re: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?
« Reply #51 on: August 28, 2018, 01:29:00 PM »

Scott Kozel’s website says the same. Sounds right to me because I’m pretty sure it happened before I headed off to college.
You know, it’s funny, back when the number was not dual-signed, Virginia maintained the Beltway’s consecutive exit numbers despite the different route numbers. I’ve read, but do not recall, that VDOT briefly tried using I-95’s exit numbers from Springfield to the Wilson Bridge during that era but that people rebelled because it was bizarre to have exits 59, 60, and 61 ascending there while Exits 5 to 14 ascended in the other direction (towards the Legion Bridge). Those numbers didn’t last long. I don’t remember it at all.
I sometimes wonder if the split I-95/I-495 era is a major reason why people now seem to call it “the Beltway.” When I was a kid, people usually called it “495.” Nowadays I don’t hear that as often except from Bob Marbourg on WTOP.

We moved to the area in 1969, and it was widely called "the Beltway" back then.  And from then onward.

I did document the few years that VA I-95 exits 59, 60, and 61 were designated on the eastern part of the Beltway.  Back then the Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike still had its own exit numbering system, so VA I-95 itself did not have a single numbering system, and at that point it was a sequential numbering system.
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dvferyance

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Re: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?
« Reply #52 on: August 28, 2018, 02:09:42 PM »

The short segment of I-24 in Georgia uses the Tennessee exit numbers.
As I recall it once did reset. I-59 was Exit 2 and whatever the other exit is was Exit 4. I saw this when going to Florida back in 1992. We went again to Florida in 1999 and the exits then had been changed. But was odd is when it re entered Tennessee it resumed the exit numbering from before instead of resetting again.
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abefroman329

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Re: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?
« Reply #53 on: August 28, 2018, 02:29:09 PM »

Wikipedia says it was re-posted in 1989, although I could've sworn we took a road trip there in 1990 or 1991 and the eastern half was still only I-95.  Maybe we just had an old road atlas.

Scott Kozel’s website says the same. Sounds right to me because I’m pretty sure it happened before I headed off to college.

You know, it’s funny, back when the number was not dual-signed, Virginia maintained the Beltway’s consecutive exit numbers despite the different route numbers. I’ve read, but do not recall, that VDOT briefly tried using I-95’s exit numbers from Springfield to the Wilson Bridge during that era but that people rebelled because it was bizarre to have exits 59, 60, and 61 ascending there while Exits 5 to 14 ascended in the other direction (towards the Legion Bridge). Those numbers didn’t last long. I don’t remember it at all.

I sometimes wonder if the split I-95/I-495 era is a major reason why people now seem to call it “the Beltway.” When I was a kid, people usually called it “495.” Nowadays I don’t hear that as often except from Bob Marbourg on WTOP.
Also according to Wikipedia, VDOT is currently using I-95’s exit numbers from Springfield to the Wilson Bridge.
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1995hoo

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Re: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?
« Reply #54 on: August 28, 2018, 03:27:52 PM »

Wikipedia is correct about that. I mentioned that somewhere up the thread. It still confuses people, but not as much as the old system user “Beltway” mentions two posts above yours.
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Eth

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Re: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?
« Reply #55 on: August 28, 2018, 04:40:05 PM »

The short segment of I-24 in Georgia uses the Tennessee exit numbers.
As I recall it once did reset. I-59 was Exit 2 and whatever the other exit is was Exit 4. I saw this when going to Florida back in 1992. We went again to Florida in 1999 and the exits then had been changed. But was odd is when it re entered Tennessee it resumed the exit numbering from before instead of resetting again.

That would be very strange, since Georgia didn't convert to mileage-based exit numbering until 1999-2000. If anything, surely I-59 would have been Exit 1 and GA 299 Exit 2? GDOT's official state maps in this time period only showed exit numbers in city insets, so no help there. The editions with the straight-line diagrams (1979 through 1985) show I-24 with the same exit numbers as today, 167 and 169.
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jp the roadgeek

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Re: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?
« Reply #56 on: August 28, 2018, 05:05:14 PM »

The short segment of I-24 in Georgia uses the Tennessee exit numbers.
As I recall it once did reset. I-59 was Exit 2 and whatever the other exit is was Exit 4. I saw this when going to Florida back in 1992. We went again to Florida in 1999 and the exits then had been changed. But was odd is when it re entered Tennessee it resumed the exit numbering from before instead of resetting again.


NY 17 and I-684's mileposts don't reset when the cross back into NY from PA/CT.  Not sure how US 340 in VA is treated in the Loudon County section since the segment is less than a mile.  US 50's mileposts do reset when it re-enters Maryland from DC; the Garrett County piece is mileposted separately.  Guess if the gap is insignificant (< 5-10 mi.), it's just easier to maintain the same mileposts than start anew.
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dvferyance

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Re: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?
« Reply #57 on: August 29, 2018, 04:32:09 PM »

The short segment of I-24 in Georgia uses the Tennessee exit numbers.
As I recall it once did reset. I-59 was Exit 2 and whatever the other exit is was Exit 4. I saw this when going to Florida back in 1992. We went again to Florida in 1999 and the exits then had been changed. But was odd is when it re entered Tennessee it resumed the exit numbering from before instead of resetting again.

That would be very strange, since Georgia didn't convert to mileage-based exit numbering until 1999-2000. If anything, surely I-59 would have been Exit 1 and GA 299 Exit 2? GDOT's official state maps in this time period only showed exit numbers in city insets, so no help there. The editions with the straight-line diagrams (1979 through 1985) show I-24 with the same exit numbers as today, 167 and 169.
Maybe I am wrong about the exit numbers themselves it was 25 years ago. But I am sure that the numbers did reset when it entered Georgia. Sure explains the milepost that haven't. All I know it was changed sometime between 1992 and 1999.
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Re: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?
« Reply #58 on: August 29, 2018, 04:50:40 PM »

^^^^

People complained that they found it too confusing for a beltway to have split numbering like that, so eventually I-495 was posted again on the eastern side. I’ve sometimes thought it should have been I-95E and I-95W, though I recognize the reasons why they want thru traffic to use the eastern side.
The smaller scale “beltway” around downtown Portland functions okay with the eastern part marked as I-5 and the western part as I-405. Whether or not it fits the technical definition of a “beltway”, I used it as such when driving from US 26 or Burnside to I-84 by going in either direction on 405 and then 5 to bypass downtown Portland just like how I now would take the Capitol Beltway around DC when going from the Reston area to Bolling or Annapolis (while avoiding peak traffic times...).


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roadman65

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Re: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?
« Reply #59 on: August 29, 2018, 06:40:11 PM »

I was noticing that I-670 in Kansas/Missouri uses the same exit scheme as Exit 1B is less than a half a mile from the KS State Line, so I assume that MDOT just considers I-670 in KS to be as its own being no major exits there.

I-435 though uses one scheme starting from I-35 in Lenexa and clockwise around the city.  That may be due to locals and commuters who do not care about states and if they go from one to the other its like many of us going up the road.
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Re: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?
« Reply #60 on: August 29, 2018, 10:05:09 PM »

The smaller scale “beltway” around downtown Portland functions okay with the eastern part marked as I-5 and the western part as I-405. Whether or not it fits the technical definition of a “beltway”, I used it as such when driving from US 26 or Burnside to I-84 by going in either direction on 405 and then 5 to bypass downtown Portland just like how I now would take the Capitol Beltway around DC when going from the Reston area to Bolling or Annapolis (while avoiding peak traffic times...).

A circumferential freeway that loops around the central business district, would generally be called an inner loop freeway.  They don't have to be a single route, as in the case of Richmond, VA with a segment of I-95, I-195 and VA-195.

« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 10:43:39 PM by Beltway »
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bzakharin

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Re: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?
« Reply #61 on: August 30, 2018, 02:52:57 PM »

The Palisades Parkway exit numbers don't reset at the NJ/NY state line. They are also sequential rather than mile-based.
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mapman1071

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Re: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?
« Reply #62 on: September 10, 2018, 11:02:53 PM »

Having to give directions in which you explain to people that they need the next exit after Exit 57 and the sign will say Exit 173, even though it's only three miles later, is a pain—while you'd think people would just listen and accept it since you presumably know the way to your own house, they invariably find it baffling because when they pass Exit 50-something they understandably think they still have a long way to go (unless they know the area, in which case they don't need directions).

Interestingly, we've experience similar in Connecticut, where... as you may be aware, the exits on the Merritt Parkway begin at 27 at the state line, continuing what the exit numbers on "the Hutch" used to be before NY bumped them up (NY's exit at the state line is now 30 instead of 27). We had someone arrive half an hour once early because when we told them they needed to take exit 35 in Connecticut they assumed they would have a lot longer to go after the state line than they actually did.


As for the original subject, my preference is that exit number reset at state lines because this is established standard to the point that drivers expect it. And, as the example above shows, can lead to confusion when it is randomly not followed.

Of course, this does also mean that exit numbers should not reset where there is not a state line - I also have firsthand experience with people getting confused with I-87 in New York. Tell someone they need to take I-87 north after they get off the George Washington Bridge, and then tell them they want exit 4 for the Cross County Parkway. Then when they get on I-87 north and the next exits they see are 8, then 9, then 10, they incorrectly assume they must have taken a wrong turn.

With the Capital Beltway example, I would say this is simply an inherent problem with any interstate concurrency. Changing the exit numbers to match I-495's would fix the particular problem you describe, but create a new one for drivers following I-95 north looking for an exit in the area. So that wouldn't really be any better.

Exit #'s On the New Jersey Turnpike/I-95 Jump from the Exit 17 "Toll Plaza" to Free I-95 Exit 68
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bzakharin

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Re: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?
« Reply #63 on: September 13, 2018, 12:43:16 PM »

Having to give directions in which you explain to people that they need the next exit after Exit 57 and the sign will say Exit 173, even though it's only three miles later, is a pain—while you'd think people would just listen and accept it since you presumably know the way to your own house, they invariably find it baffling because when they pass Exit 50-something they understandably think they still have a long way to go (unless they know the area, in which case they don't need directions).

Interestingly, we've experience similar in Connecticut, where... as you may be aware, the exits on the Merritt Parkway begin at 27 at the state line, continuing what the exit numbers on "the Hutch" used to be before NY bumped them up (NY's exit at the state line is now 30 instead of 27). We had someone arrive half an hour once early because when we told them they needed to take exit 35 in Connecticut they assumed they would have a lot longer to go after the state line than they actually did.


As for the original subject, my preference is that exit number reset at state lines because this is established standard to the point that drivers expect it. And, as the example above shows, can lead to confusion when it is randomly not followed.

Of course, this does also mean that exit numbers should not reset where there is not a state line - I also have firsthand experience with people getting confused with I-87 in New York. Tell someone they need to take I-87 north after they get off the George Washington Bridge, and then tell them they want exit 4 for the Cross County Parkway. Then when they get on I-87 north and the next exits they see are 8, then 9, then 10, they incorrectly assume they must have taken a wrong turn.

With the Capital Beltway example, I would say this is simply an inherent problem with any interstate concurrency. Changing the exit numbers to match I-495's would fix the particular problem you describe, but create a new one for drivers following I-95 north looking for an exit in the area. So that wouldn't really be any better.

Exit #'s On the New Jersey Turnpike/I-95 Jump from the Exit 17 "Toll Plaza" to Free I-95 Exit 68
If they ever wanted to go with the current I-95 mileposts for exits, they could leave exits 1-6 alone since the PA extension is about 6 miles long. Not that I'd advocate for that.
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Re: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?
« Reply #64 on: September 13, 2018, 02:52:29 PM »

The MUTCD, in Section 2E.31, requires . . . "If a circumferential, loop, or spur route crosses State boundaries, the numbering sequence shall be coordinated by the States to provide continuous interchange numbering."  These are 3dis. 

Oddly enough, MDOT and TDOT didn't do this for I-269 around Memphis even though there's absolutely no reason why TDOT couldn't have continued MDOT's numbering, particularly since MDOT posted their numbering first. Given that it's a Standard and both states use the federal MUTCD I'm surprised FHWA signed off on TDOT's signage plans.
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PurdueBill

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Re: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?
« Reply #65 on: October 15, 2018, 10:43:05 PM »

Is Ohio a follower when it comes to this?  I-275 and 471: exit numbers carry across state lines.  I-470: exit numbers reset at state line.  Was West Virginia not interested in carrying over exit numbers but Indiana and Kentucky were?  Hmm.

Especially for I-470, which is the better route for through traffic, not repeating exit numbers would be logical. 
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jp the roadgeek

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Re: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?
« Reply #66 on: October 16, 2018, 02:20:20 AM »

Is Ohio a follower when it comes to this?  I-275 and 471: exit numbers carry across state lines.  I-470: exit numbers reset at state line.  Was West Virginia not interested in carrying over exit numbers but Indiana and Kentucky were?  Hmm.

Especially for I-470, which is the better route for through traffic, not repeating exit numbers would be logical.


I-275 is a beltway, so it follows the MUTCD rule listed in the post above.  I-471 is 5.75 miles long, with 0.73 miles being in Ohio, so it's so insignificantly short that resetting doesn't make sense for one exit. I-470 has separate exit numbers in OH and WV because it existed in two sections between 1976 and 1983 until the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Bridge and approaches made it whole.  Because the two sections were in different states, they each had their own set of exit numbers.  Stands to reason the exit numbers would have become continuous when I-470 was completed, but they have yet to become so.  There is precedent to do it: I-635 in KS/MO, which is not a beltway, does not reset at the border (I-635 in MO is about the same length as I-470 in WV). 
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Re: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?
« Reply #67 on: October 16, 2018, 12:08:12 PM »

In México, kilometer-posts count down to the next major city rather than a state line.  It makes sense, but it's also kind of humorous to see a distance sign that says [CITY NAME   68] right next to a km-68 post.
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Re: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?
« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2018, 09:57:13 PM »

Is Ohio a follower when it comes to this?  I-275 and 471: exit numbers carry across state lines.  I-470: exit numbers reset at state line.  Was West Virginia not interested in carrying over exit numbers but Indiana and Kentucky were?  Hmm.

Especially for I-470, which is the better route for through traffic, not repeating exit numbers would be logical.


I-275 is a beltway, so it follows the MUTCD rule listed in the post above.  I-471 is 5.75 miles long, with 0.73 miles being in Ohio, so it's so insignificantly short that resetting doesn't make sense for one exit. I-470 has separate exit numbers in OH and WV because it existed in two sections between 1976 and 1983 until the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Bridge and approaches made it whole.  Because the two sections were in different states, they each had their own set of exit numbers.  Stands to reason the exit numbers would have become continuous when I-470 was completed, but they have yet to become so.  There is precedent to do it: I-635 in KS/MO, which is not a beltway, does not reset at the border (I-635 in MO is about the same length as I-470 in WV). 

Seems like the kind of thing that they could have planned ahead though.  It is silly for 470 to reset exit numbers and count down twice in such a short distance even if it does cross a state line.  They could have left the exits unnumbered on one side or something as a stopgap knowing they would be numbered upon completion.
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dvferyance

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Re: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?
« Reply #69 on: October 17, 2018, 04:56:08 PM »

US 93 (and the new I-11) reset at the Arizona-Nevada line over the Hoover Dam, but Arizona has it mileposted as an east-west route. This means there are two Exit 2s about 4 miles apart, one on either side of the line.

Ditto for the Trans-Canada Highway at the QC/MB border. QC treats its part (A-85) as north-south even though it really isn't, while NB's part (NB 2) is west-east. So you have separate exit 1s on both sides of the border.
Isn't that the same for A-40/ON-417?
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Re: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?
« Reply #70 on: October 17, 2018, 06:06:05 PM »

In México, kilometer-posts count down to the next major city rather than a state line.  It makes sense, but it's also kind of humorous to see a distance sign that says [CITY NAME   68] right next to a km-68 post.
I-4 works out where its western terminus is in Downtown Tampa where its zero mile marker is.  So in essence when you see a mile sign for Tampa going WB a mile post with the same number is nearby.
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Re: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?
« Reply #71 on: October 30, 2018, 09:13:17 PM »

I-280 (IL/IA) does not reset at the Mississippi River.  However, exit numbers do change when I-74 joins in to follow I-74 (as I-74/280).
That's just because of the, somewhat illogical, convention that the lower Interstate Route usually controls the exit numbers.
Then again, to be fair, there is no logical reason why I-74 needs to enter Iowa, at all.


Routes like I-82 (W), really shouldn't reset, they should continue the mileage.
I don't know if that's true. When I-69 and I-96 run together on the west side of Lansing, Michigan they use I-96's exit numbers.
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Re: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?
« Reply #72 on: October 30, 2018, 10:25:41 PM »

I-280 (IL/IA) does not reset at the Mississippi River.  However, exit numbers do change when I-74 joins in to follow I-74 (as I-74/280).
That's just because of the, somewhat illogical, convention that the lower Interstate Route usually controls the exit numbers.
Then again, to be fair, there is no logical reason why I-74 needs to enter Iowa, at all.


Routes like I-82 (W), really shouldn't reset, they should continue the mileage.

Which is not followed in MS when I-20 joins I-59. The remaining exits in the concurrency use I-59’s mileage. And I-20 seems to be the through route as 59 comes in from the south. I wonder if I-59 was built first?


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Re: Do exit numbers really always need to reset at state lines?
« Reply #73 on: October 31, 2018, 11:41:43 AM »

I-269 resets at the MS/TN state line
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