Nevada

[kphoger]

Wow.  I think it's reasonable for school bus drivers to stop traffic when they're discharging kids from their bus, and for drivers who violate that law to get fined.

Meanwhile, in other countries, people expect their kids to know to cross the street without getting pancaked.

[Max Rockatansky]

Wow.  I think it's reasonable for school bus drivers to stop traffic when they're discharging kids from their bus, and for drivers who violate that law to get fined.

Meanwhile, in other countries, people expect their kids to know to cross the street without getting pancaked.

I'm in Jocotepec, Jalisco today.  There is virtually no traffic control or pedestrian feature to speak of around the city plaza.  People seem to be making it work just fine.

[kphoger]

I'm in Jocotepec, Jalisco today.  There is virtually no traffic control or pedestrian feature to speak of around the city plaza.  People seem to be making it work just fine.

Don't get me wrong.  Mexico has a lot of fatal traffic accidents due to drivers doing stupid stuff.  I just don't think that a lack of school bus traffic laws is what makes the difference.  Europe proves that pretty well, I think.

[vdeane]

I'm in Jocotepec, Jalisco today.  There is virtually no traffic control or pedestrian feature to speak of around the city plaza.  People seem to be making it work just fine.

Don't get me wrong.  Mexico has a lot of fatal traffic accidents due to drivers doing stupid stuff.  I just don't think that a lack of school bus traffic laws is what makes the difference.  Europe proves that pretty well, I think.

It's interesting how in Europe the stop signs on the bus function like actual stop signs, as in, after you stop and determine that it's safe to proceed, you can.  In the US, they're legally like traffic lights, even if nobody crosses the road at a given stop (or in NY, even if it wouldn't be legal for a bus stop to be on the opposite side of the road in the first place).

[DenverBrian]

Wow.  I think it's reasonable for school bus drivers to stop traffic when they're discharging kids from their bus, and for drivers who violate that law to get fined.

As long as the driver does the proper thing and extend the stop signs. I've been in a couple of situations recently where a school bus was stopped, flashers on, kids at least nearby...but the stop signs weren't extended. I (and others) stopped but then slowly went by.

[Rothman]

Wow.  I think it's reasonable for school bus drivers to stop traffic when they're discharging kids from their bus, and for drivers who violate that law to get fined.

As long as the driver does the proper thing and extend the stop signs. I've been in a couple of situations recently where a school bus was stopped, flashers on, kids at least nearby...but the stop signs weren't extended. I (and others) stopped but then slowly went by.

I don't think the stop signs need to be extended for you to be committing a traffic violation.

[kphoger]

I don't think the stop signs need to be extended for you to be committing a traffic violation.

When a school bus driver activates the amber flashers when preparing to stop, they switch to flashing red and the stop arm extends automatically when the door opens.  That is to say, you'll never see the red lights flashing without the stop arm also being extended.  Likewise, you'll never see the stop arm extended without the red lights flashing.  They go together.

According to the UVC:

§ 11-7054 — Overtaking and passing school bus

(a)
The driver of a vehicle meeting or overtaking from either direction any school bus meeting the color and identification requirements of § 12-222(a), (b) and (c) of this code stopped on the highway shall stop before reaching such school bus when there is in operation on that school bus the flashing red lights specified in § 12-222(a).  The driver shall not proceed until such school bus resumes motion or the flashing red lights are no longer actuated.

So, yes, if the stop arm is not extended, then the bus won't have flashing red lights going either.  In which case, the law does not apply, and you are legally allowed to pass.

There's a bus route in my neighborhood on which it used to be pretty common to see a bus driver stopped along the side of the road for several minutes at a time with just his amber flashers going.  While some drivers were hesitant to pass, it was perfectly legal to do so.

[DenverBrian]

I don't think the stop signs need to be extended for you to be committing a traffic violation.

When a school bus driver activates the amber flashers when preparing to stop, they switch to flashing red and the stop arm extends automatically when the door opens.  That is to say, you'll never see the red lights flashing without the stop arm also being extended.  Likewise, you'll never see the stop arm extended without the red lights flashing.  They go together.

According to the UVC:

§ 11-7054 — Overtaking and passing school bus

(a)
The driver of a vehicle meeting or overtaking from either direction any school bus meeting the color and identification requirements of § 12-222(a), (b) and (c) of this code stopped on the highway shall stop before reaching such school bus when there is in operation on that school bus the flashing red lights specified in § 12-222(a).  The driver shall not proceed until such school bus resumes motion or the flashing red lights are no longer actuated.

So, yes, if the stop arm is not extended, then the bus won't have flashing red lights going either.  In which case, the law does not apply, and you are legally allowed to pass.

There's a bus route in my neighborhood on which it used to be pretty common to see a bus driver stopped along the side of the road for several minutes at a time with just his amber flashers going.  While some drivers were hesitant to pass, it was perfectly legal to do so.

This. In my case it was amber flashers only.

[roadfro]

I don't think the stop signs need to be extended for you to be committing a traffic violation.

When a school bus driver activates the amber flashers when preparing to stop, they switch to flashing red and the stop arm extends automatically when the door opens.  That is to say, you'll never see the red lights flashing without the stop arm also being extended.  Likewise, you'll never see the stop arm extended without the red lights flashing.  They go together.

According to the UVC:

§ 11-7054 — Overtaking and passing school bus

(a)
The driver of a vehicle meeting or overtaking from either direction any school bus meeting the color and identification requirements of § 12-222(a), (b) and (c) of this code stopped on the highway shall stop before reaching such school bus when there is in operation on that school bus the flashing red lights specified in § 12-222(a).  The driver shall not proceed until such school bus resumes motion or the flashing red lights are no longer actuated.

So, yes, if the stop arm is not extended, then the bus won't have flashing red lights going either.  In which case, the law does not apply, and you are legally allowed to pass.

There's a bus route in my neighborhood on which it used to be pretty common to see a bus driver stopped along the side of the road for several minutes at a time with just his amber flashers going.  While some drivers were hesitant to pass, it was perfectly legal to do so.

This. In my case it was amber flashers only.

Makes me wonder why they would sit there with the yellow flashers going if they're not ready to open the door and load/unload students...

The school district I grew up in, the only time you'd see a school bus keep yellow flashers on for an extended period is when a school bus stopped for another that had the stop arms out for active loading.

[kphoger]

Makes me wonder why they would sit there with the yellow flashers going if they're not ready to open the door and load/unload students...

The school district I grew up in, the only time you'd see a school bus keep yellow flashers on for an extended period is when a school bus stopped for another that had the stop arms out for active loading.

What else should the driver do instead, if they have to park and wait awhile?

[FredAkbar]

Makes me wonder why they would sit there with the yellow flashers going if they're not ready to open the door and load/unload students...

The school district I grew up in, the only time you'd see a school bus keep yellow flashers on for an extended period is when a school bus stopped for another that had the stop arms out for active loading.

What else should the driver do instead, if they have to park and wait awhile?

If they're pulled over properly they don't need to use the flashers at all. Just like any other parked vehicle.

[lstone19]

Makes me wonder why they would sit there with the yellow flashers going if they're not ready to open the door and load/unload students...

You overestimate the intelligence of many school bus drivers. Let's say they're at their first stop but early. For some, the thought process is I'm supposed to turn them on a certain distance before the stop and it never occurs to them that being early to the stop is a good reason not to turn them on until just before the start time.

[kphoger]

If they're pulled over properly they don't need to use the flashers at all. Just like any other parked vehicle.

If I pull my car over to the side of the street, especially in a place where people don't usually park, then I'm probably going to turn my flashers on.  I don't see why a school bus drive should be less likely to do so.

For what it's worth, here is the location where I used to see bus drivers do it in my neighborhood.  Four-lane road, no shoulders, perfect place to use flashers when stopped.

[heynow415]

Makes me wonder why they would sit there with the yellow flashers going if they're not ready to open the door and load/unload students...

You overestimate the intelligence of many school bus drivers. Let's say they're at their first stop but early. For some, the thought process is I'm supposed to turn them on a certain distance before the stop and it never occurs to them that being early to the stop is a good reason not to turn them on until just before the start time.

Loading (picking up) students can create a safety concern if the bus is dwelling for an extended period since the students aren't all arriving at the stop at the same time and cross the street/intersection whenever they show up instead of waiting for the bus driver to run interference allowing them to cross.  Using the amber flashers at least suggests that there may be students present without bringing everything to an extended screeching halt with red flashers/stop sign.

[Scott5114]

I have no idea if all buses are like this, but the buses my school had didn't have any way of turning off the yellow flashers. The only way to interrupt the yellow flashers was to open the door, which triggered them changing to red flashers + stop sign out. When the door closed, it would turn everything off and retract the sign.

So maybe the driver just had the yellow flashers on because they didn't expect to have to wait, and they didn't want to pop the stop sign out for one second to cancel the yellow flashers.

[lstone19]

I think some people are thinking "yellow flashers" mean the hazard warning lights (same as in cars) that are usually part of the turn signal system. If so, no, we're talking about the yellow flashing lights at the top of the bus that are on before the bus makes a school bus stop.

I have no idea if all buses are like this, but the buses my school had didn't have any way of turning off the yellow flashers. The only way to interrupt the yellow flashers was to open the door, which triggered them changing to red flashers + stop sign out. When the door closed, it would turn everything off and retract the sign.

So maybe the driver just had the yellow flashers on because they didn't expect to have to wait, and they didn't want to pop the stop sign out for one second to cancel the yellow flashers.

I was in high school in the 70s but I recall there being a master switch for that system. Turn it off and they went off. And there needs to be a master switch so the red light/stop sign aren't displayed when the door is open and it's not a school bus stop (at least in some states, school buses could be chartered and operated in non-school bus service where the lights/stop sign weren't used)

[Scott5114]

I was in high school in the 70s but I recall there being a master switch for that system. Turn it off and they went off. And there needs to be a master switch so the red light/stop sign aren't displayed when the door is open and it's not a school bus stop (at least in some states, school buses could be chartered and operated in non-school bus service where the lights/stop sign weren't used)

This was on a Carpenter school bus with International engine which entered service in Washington, Oklahoma a few years before 1996. The amber flashers were controlled by a spring-loaded switch which turned on when the driver pushed it upward. It then returned to the neutral position; there was no "off" (i.e. you couldn't press it down from the resting position). The red flashers and sign, meanwhile, were apparently wired to a white Cherry switch behind the door handle, which would be depressed by a strike plate on the handle when the door was closed. And yeah, there were plenty of times where the bus needed to have the door open without the sign being needed, but the sign was just out when the door was open and that was just how it was. (I don't remember the red flashers and the sign being on when the bus was loading or unloading at the school, so I guess if the door was open while the bus was in park, that would override the door switch.)

For some reason, when I was in elementary school I wanted to be a bus driver, so I would often sit in the row behind the driver pestering her with questions about all this stuff. Sometimes she let would let me open the door at my stop, which is how I discovered where the door switch was. The amber-lights switch was part of was a huge bank of switches the driver had access to, with many more labeled spots where a switch could be installed to control an option that our bus didn't have (I distinctly remember a spot for "heated crosswalks", which struck me as extravagant; I think "crossing arm" was another).

[roadfro]

Makes me wonder why they would sit there with the yellow flashers going if they're not ready to open the door and load/unload students...

The school district I grew up in, the only time you'd see a school bus keep yellow flashers on for an extended period is when a school bus stopped for another that had the stop arms out for active loading.

What else should the driver do instead, if they have to park and wait awhile?

If they're pulled over properly they don't need to use the flashers at all. Just like any other parked vehicle.

This. Maybe hazard lights, depending on situation. 

But no need to use the yellow flashers that indicate "the red flashers and stop arm are about to activate for passenger loading and you'll need to stop" if you're early and not going to load the kids for another seven minutes.

You overestimate the intelligence of many school bus drivers. Let's say they're at their first stop but early. For some, the thought process is I'm supposed to turn them on a certain distance before the stop and it never occurs to them that being early to the stop is a good reason not to turn them on until just before the start time.

For what it's worth, here is the location where I used to see bus drivers do it in my neighborhood.  Four-lane road, no shoulders, perfect place to use flashers when stopped.

Near me, there is an elementary school bus stop at an apartment complex driveway. I've seen the kids there waiting on my way to work. I've also seen down the road a little bit, sometimes the bus driver gets to the neighborhood early. The driver parks up the road a little bit (the road is on a curve, so the bus is out of view from the stop) and waits there whenever they arrive early. No need for yellow flashers. Also reduces the expectation from children (and parents) that if the bus is there early that the kid can get on the bus.

Commenting on kphoger's example (without context of traffic volumes and other factors): It seems slightly irresponsible for the bus driver to just sit there with the bus blocking a travel lane (and potentially affecting visibility from the side street or residential driveways) just because they're early and not ready to pick up the kids...

[roadfro]

Now I've gone down a bit of a rabbit hole...

I was in high school in the 70s but I recall there being a master switch for that system. Turn it off and they went off. And there needs to be a master switch so the red light/stop sign aren't displayed when the door is open and it's not a school bus stop (at least in some states, school buses could be chartered and operated in non-school bus service where the lights/stop sign weren't used)

This was on a Carpenter school bus with International engine which entered service in Washington, Oklahoma a few years before 1996. The amber flashers were controlled by a spring-loaded switch which turned on when the driver pushed it upward. It then returned to the neutral position; there was no "off" (i.e. you couldn't press it down from the resting position). The red flashers and sign, meanwhile, were apparently wired to a white Cherry switch behind the door handle, which would be depressed by a strike plate on the handle when the door was closed. And yeah, there were plenty of times where the bus needed to have the door open without the sign being needed, but the sign was just out when the door was open and that was just how it was. (I don't remember the red flashers and the sign being on when the bus was loading or unloading at the school, so I guess if the door was open while the bus was in park, that would override the door switch.)

For some reason, when I was in elementary school I wanted to be a bus driver, so I would often sit in the row behind the driver pestering her with questions about all this stuff. Sometimes she let would let me open the door at my stop, which is how I discovered where the door switch was. The amber-lights switch was part of was a huge bank of switches the driver had access to, with many more labeled spots where a switch could be installed to control an option that our bus didn't have (I distinctly remember a spot for "heated crosswalks", which struck me as extravagant; I think "crossing arm" was another).

It seems there's a few different methods for activating the warning flashers, depending on manufacturer.

My school district purchased Blue Bird buses in the 90s but started buying Thomas Built buses in the late 90s and early 2000s. I recall the Blue Bird and Thomas buses having warning light activation mechanisms similar to the Thomas Built bus demonstrated in the above video.

Here's another video demonstrating the system that appears to be an older bus model.

In all of these, the red warning lights and stop arm (and crossing arm, it seems, if equipped) can only activate if the yellow warning lights are initiated first. But interestingly, depending on manufacturer, the door doesn't necessarily have to be fully opened to get the yellows to switch over to red. This also explains how you can have the door open without warning lights activated when the bus is running.

But apparently, with some (older?) models with a 'master switch' for the warning light system, even that can be configured differently so that the red warning comes on any time the door is open and the bus is running:

[kphoger]

Commenting on kphoger's example (without context of traffic volumes and other factors): It seems slightly irresponsible for the bus driver to just sit there with the bus blocking a travel lane (and potentially affecting visibility from the side street or residential driveways) just because they're early and not ready to pick up the kids...

Hence, it is a good use case for yellow flashers.

[roadfro]

Commenting on kphoger's example (without context of traffic volumes and other factors): It seems slightly irresponsible for the bus driver to just sit there with the bus blocking a travel lane (and potentially affecting visibility from the side street or residential driveways) just because they're early and not ready to pick up the kids...

Hence, it is a good use case for yellow flashers.

I disagree.

A bus's yellow warning flashers are meant to indicate "this bus is about to pick up/drop off kids and the red lights/stop arm are about to turn on." They are meant to convey the impending legal duty for other drivers to stop, and in that sense are more akin to the steady yellow phase of a traffic signal than your typical vehicle hazard lights.   

The yellow warning flashers are activated as a bus is about 300 feet from the bus stop (that was typical distance mentioned in some of the videos I watched) and begins slowing to a stop—with the reds activated very shortly thereafter as the driver opens the door.

If the bus is sitting there for five minutes blocking a lane with the yellow warning flashers on the whole time, that is counter to the intent of the yellow warning lights. And it could cause confusion for other drivers (is the bus going to pick up kids? is it okay to pass it?).

[kphoger]

I just assumed that school buses didn't have regular hazard lights that could be activated separately from all the other flashing yellow lights.  I guess I was wrong about that.

[Max Rockatansky]

I started looking into the alignment history of US 50 and US 95 in Fallon.  In the 1957-1958 I found mention of the Navy paying to relocate US 50 north of the Auxiliary Air Station partially over what wad NV 42.  The rationale for doing this was that the Navy wanted to expand their runway over Berney Road.  Berney Road was the original alignment of US 50 and now NV 119. 

Interestingly the military housing annex and current main gate at Union Lane and Pasture Road were built after the facility was given full air station status again in 1972.  That certainly explains why NV 720 was adopted in 1976.  The previous main entrance was on Berney Road and now is an auxiliary gate.

Within Fallon itself the alignment history of the US Routes gets really interesting.  I haven't sorted it all out yet but it involved both highways in Maine Street.  US 50 eastbound originally departed downtown on Harrigan Road (now NV 115).  Harrigan began US 50A before the 1959 alignment US 50 east of downtown Fallon was built but I haven't full sorted out the details yet.

US 95 was routed on a detour to Fernley until NV 1A was rebuilt in 1959.  I'm still working out when all the US Routes got shifted off of Maine Street in downtown Fallon.

[gonealookin]

That discussion reminds me, there's currently a NDOT "virtual public hearing" underway, discussing the realignment of a portion of SR 361 north of Gabbs:  https://ndotsr361.com/.

The realignment is necessary because the Navy wants to change the boundaries of the Fallon air station's training range.

For those who like to speculate about future alignments of Interstate 11 (yeah, there's another thread dedicated to that), that training range is a limiting factor.  I don't know enough about all the topographical challenges, but just looking at it on a map it would seem logical to run I-11 up Pole Line Road from Tonopah to Gabbs and then continuing to Fallon.  However, at Gabbs the Interstate could no longer cut diagonally in a northwesterly direction to Fallon; it would have to turn north along the general SR 361 alignment up to US 50 because of the location of the training range.

[Max Rockatansky]

NV 117 turned out to be way more interesting than I thought it would be.  This is the summary for what I have in the header on our page regarding the highway:

"Nevada State Route 117 is 6.91-mile highway located in the Fallon area of Churchill County.  Nevada State Route 117 originates at US Route 95 near downtown Fallon where it follows Sheckler Road and Sheckler Cutoff Road to US Route 50.  Functionally Nevada State Route 117 acts as a bypass of downtown Fallon for traffic on US Routes 50 and 95.

What became Nevada State Route 117 was commissioned as Nevada State Route 61 in 1940.  Originally Nevada State Route 61 connected Fallon to the ghost town site of Saint Clair.  Saint Clair was a town which developed during the 1870s near a bridge at the Old Carson River.  Even after being renumbered to Nevada State Route 117 in 1976 the highway continued to serve Saint Clair.  The modern bypass alignment of Nevada State Route 117 was developed in the early 1990s."

The original NV 61/117 alignment followed Sheckler Road, Allen Road and St. Clair Road to the Saint Clair town site.  Apparently, Saint Clair had an active schoolhouse until 1956. 

Even NV 715 on McLean Road passed through the site of the stage stop known as Ragtown.  I'm not completely through my backlog on Churchill County but I'm going to wager there is probably something similar going on with NV62/118.