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Author Topic: Pennsylvania  (Read 252716 times)

RevZimmerman

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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1100 on: September 12, 2019, 06:13:18 PM »

Not the most-detailed local TV news story, but there are some data points about the I-83 construction project around Harrisburg.

2022 start date is mentioned, as well as an anticipated end of project in 10 years. Environmental clearances are expected in Spring 2020.

https://www.abc27.com/news/traffic/penndot-i-83-construction-in-dauphin-county-may-take-10-years
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CentralPAguy

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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1101 on: September 15, 2019, 05:25:57 PM »

Not the most-detailed local TV news story, but there are some data points about the I-83 construction project around Harrisburg.

2022 start date is mentioned, as well as an anticipated end of project in 10 years. Environmental clearances are expected in Spring 2020.

https://www.abc27.com/news/traffic/penndot-i-83-construction-in-dauphin-county-may-take-10-years

And looks like they're starting planning for York Split (re-)reconstruction!
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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1102 on: September 15, 2019, 05:46:24 PM »

Not the most-detailed local TV news story, but there are some data points about the I-83 construction project around Harrisburg.

2022 start date is mentioned, as well as an anticipated end of project in 10 years. Environmental clearances are expected in Spring 2020.

https://www.abc27.com/news/traffic/penndot-i-83-construction-in-dauphin-county-may-take-10-years
Harrisburg traffic is a mess sometimes, and I-83 construction in the area always exacerbates that.
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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1103 on: October 01, 2019, 10:46:42 PM »

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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1104 on: October 12, 2019, 04:59:22 AM »

More information about the upcoming I-83 widening in Harrisburg...10 lanes instead of 12, which I believe would still make it one of the widest segments of interstate in PA.

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2019/10/i-83-expansion-plan-in-harrisburg-could-be-reduced-from-12-to-10-lanes-engineers.html
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noelbotevera

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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1105 on: October 12, 2019, 04:55:13 PM »

Trip up to Knoebels and Centralia yesterday, some observations:

-US 22/322 -> PA 225 -> PA 325 -> US 209 is a nice alternative to I-81 between exits 67 and 107, especially when it's fall. Lots of trees.
-Centralia is a lot more disappointing than how most websites portray it. You can't even see the smoke unless it's winter, and abandoned PA 61 is really the highlight of the place.
-Knoebels is definitely worth the drive. The Phoenix is probably one of the most intense coasters I've ever ridden.
-Ate at Coney Island Lunch in Shamokin; seems like a place stuck in the 1920s, but the food (and even the soda) is local and delicious. Also worth it.
-Still awaiting a 6 lane upgrade to I-81 between Carlisle and Harrisburg.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1106 on: October 12, 2019, 06:24:04 PM »

Trip up to Knoebels and Centralia yesterday, some observations:
...
-Centralia is a lot more disappointing than how most websites portray it. You can't even see the smoke unless it's winter, and abandoned PA 61 is really the highlight of the place.


Centralia...

So, what's happened there is the fires have moved on in the tunnels. We were there 10 or so years ago and the sulfur smell was toxic! Today, it's basically an urban forest with a grid street pattern. I don't think you would even see the smoke in the wintertime!

The websites that refer to Centralia are many years old, and any website that talks about the area currently is probably referencing web sites and stories that are over a decade old.

That's also a problem with many travel sites.  The authors often have no experience of what they're talking about.  They're just basing their story on what was previously written. Anytime you see a story that says the best time to buy airline tickets is 3pm on a Tuesday is a writer that should never be allowed to write again. That was true 25 years ago due to Southwest's "Ding" alert. Hasn't existed since the 90's. Yet people still believe it.
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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1107 on: October 12, 2019, 07:42:47 PM »

-Centralia is a lot more disappointing than how most websites portray it. You can't even see the smoke unless it's winter, and abandoned PA 61 is really the highlight of the place.

When I visited Centralia in the early 2000s, there was no smoke wafting through the area.  An area was smoldering near the cemetary, but that was about the extent.  In fact, I could not find any of the vent pipes that I always saw in news footage spewing smoke and steam when I was growing up.  Most of the buidlings that comparised the town were gone, and the fire had begun to move towards Ashland which was the cause of the closure and subsequent detour of PA 61.
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Rothman

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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1108 on: October 12, 2019, 11:14:55 PM »

Makes me wonder how the Coney Island Lunch in Shamokin compares to the one in Scranton.
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noelbotevera

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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1109 on: October 13, 2019, 04:00:55 AM »

-Centralia is a lot more disappointing than how most websites portray it. You can't even see the smoke unless it's winter, and abandoned PA 61 is really the highlight of the place.

When I visited Centralia in the early 2000s, there was no smoke wafting through the area.  An area was smoldering near the cemetary, but that was about the extent.  In fact, I could not find any of the vent pipes that I always saw in news footage spewing smoke and steam when I was growing up.  Most of the buidlings that comparised the town were gone, and the fire had begun to move towards Ashland which was the cause of the closure and subsequent detour of PA 61.
I visited the Odd Fellows Cemetery, which is supposed to be near where the fire started. There seems to be several rusted structures near there that might be the vent pipes, but they're completely cold.

For abandoned PA 61, it's absolutely covered in graffiti. That's a recent thing; websites like Alps Roads and PA Highways show nothing. I guess since the state won't bother to fix or do anything with it, may as well turn it into an art piece. The cracks in the road were at best warm, but I couldn't tell if it was just the sun or if it's actually the fire. (Also, the pavement is turning red on the open road itself. Not sure if it's accurate to say that the road is literally rusting.)

As for the town itself, I count 4 houses: 2 on PA 61, one on Big Mine Run Road, and one on a random street. There's not many remains of civilization otherwise; the best you can make out are sidewalk remnants, wood planks that might have been fences, some fire hydrants, the streets, and empty grass lots. Everything else is left to nature and whatever junk people throw on the ground. The only sign of a town is a municipal building and a stop sign; you'd have no clue you were in a town if you passed by at night!

At this point, since there's no danger of the fire ever returning to the town, why has nobody bothered to move back?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 04:03:51 AM by noelbotevera »
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PAHighways

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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1110 on: October 13, 2019, 07:30:53 AM »

For abandoned PA 61, it's absolutely covered in graffiti. That's a recent thing; websites like Alps Roads and PA Highways show nothing.

When I visited, there was some graffiti here and there on old 61 but the coverage has increased in those ensuing 15 years.  I would like to go back and take more recent pictures, but I don't have the time as I did back then.

At this point, since there's no danger of the fire ever returning to the town, why has nobody bothered to move back?

There is nothing to move back to since the town, as it once was, is gone.  Most of the houses no longer stand, and the people who left started new lives wherever they ended up.
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Mr. Matté

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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1111 on: October 13, 2019, 08:55:12 AM »

I got some shots of the road from September here (just skip past all the Abandoned Turnpike pix). The "red" road might just be PennDOT's asphalt mix, as seen in one of my photos PA 61 south of the closure is red all the way down and I think I've seen in the past other random roads with that tint.
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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1112 on: October 13, 2019, 09:29:30 AM »

-Centralia is a lot more disappointing than how most websites portray it. You can't even see the smoke unless it's winter, and abandoned PA 61 is really the highlight of the place.

When I visited Centralia in the early 2000s, there was no smoke wafting through the area.  An area was smoldering near the cemetary, but that was about the extent.  In fact, I could not find any of the vent pipes that I always saw in news footage spewing smoke and steam when I was growing up.  Most of the buidlings that comparised the town were gone, and the fire had begun to move towards Ashland which was the cause of the closure and subsequent detour of PA 61.
I visited the Odd Fellows Cemetery, which is supposed to be near where the fire started. There seems to be several rusted structures near there that might be the vent pipes, but they're completely cold.

For abandoned PA 61, it's absolutely covered in graffiti. That's a recent thing; websites like Alps Roads and PA Highways show nothing. I guess since the state won't bother to fix or do anything with it, may as well turn it into an art piece. The cracks in the road were at best warm, but I couldn't tell if it was just the sun or if it's actually the fire. (Also, the pavement is turning red on the open road itself. Not sure if it's accurate to say that the road is literally rusting.)

As for the town itself, I count 4 houses: 2 on PA 61, one on Big Mine Run Road, and one on a random street. There's not many remains of civilization otherwise; the best you can make out are sidewalk remnants, wood planks that might have been fences, some fire hydrants, the streets, and empty grass lots. Everything else is left to nature and whatever junk people throw on the ground. The only sign of a town is a municipal building and a stop sign; you'd have no clue you were in a town if you passed by at night!

At this point, since there's no danger of the fire ever returning to the town, why has nobody bothered to move back?

WHAT!!!!!  The fire is still burning!!  The last residents, 10 per Wikipedia, at the most, once gone will permanently close that area to any building whatsoever.  Nobody in their right mind would move back there and even visiting that area is at your own risk.
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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1113 on: October 13, 2019, 10:26:04 AM »

The fire is not, and was never, directly underneath the settled part of the town. It's in the hills south of the town and spreading east and west from there. The issue was that toxic gases from the fire are seeping through the rock and coming out all over, including in the town. The fear was that this would include people's basements (like radon does now) and people would die of CO or CO2 poisoning.

jeffandnicole

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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1114 on: October 13, 2019, 11:17:26 AM »

-Centralia is a lot more disappointing than how most websites portray it. You can't even see the smoke unless it's winter, and abandoned PA 61 is really the highlight of the place.

When I visited Centralia in the early 2000s, there was no smoke wafting through the area.  An area was smoldering near the cemetary, but that was about the extent.  In fact, I could not find any of the vent pipes that I always saw in news footage spewing smoke and steam when I was growing up.  Most of the buidlings that comparised the town were gone, and the fire had begun to move towards Ashland which was the cause of the closure and subsequent detour of PA 61.
I visited the Odd Fellows Cemetery, which is supposed to be near where the fire started. There seems to be several rusted structures near there that might be the vent pipes, but they're completely cold.

For abandoned PA 61, it's absolutely covered in graffiti. That's a recent thing; websites like Alps Roads and PA Highways show nothing. I guess since the state won't bother to fix or do anything with it, may as well turn it into an art piece. The cracks in the road were at best warm, but I couldn't tell if it was just the sun or if it's actually the fire. (Also, the pavement is turning red on the open road itself. Not sure if it's accurate to say that the road is literally rusting.)

As for the town itself, I count 4 houses: 2 on PA 61, one on Big Mine Run Road, and one on a random street. There's not many remains of civilization otherwise; the best you can make out are sidewalk remnants, wood planks that might have been fences, some fire hydrants, the streets, and empty grass lots. Everything else is left to nature and whatever junk people throw on the ground. The only sign of a town is a municipal building and a stop sign; you'd have no clue you were in a town if you passed by at night!

At this point, since there's no danger of the fire ever returning to the town, why has nobody bothered to move back?

Why do you think the fires will never return? The fires are burning in open underground mines, so the fires can easily flow through the tunnels back under Centralia if fuel becomes available to allow them to burn, which in their weakened state could easily happen.

Besides...and the more important reason: the feds bought out the homeowners properties.  They're not going to put those properties back on the market. Even the people living there are doing so based on an agreement with the feds. They don't really even own their homes.

As for Graffiti Highway...that's been a thing for about 15 years. The area gained its fame due to the World Wide Web and websites devoted to weird stuff. The police hate that stuff, as it mostly causes people to trespass on private, closed and dangerous properties.  Due to that, there's been increased enforcement and arrests of people trespassing on Graffiti Highway.
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noelbotevera

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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1115 on: October 13, 2019, 11:46:02 AM »

I visited the Odd Fellows Cemetery, which is supposed to be near where the fire started. There seems to be several rusted structures near there that might be the vent pipes, but they're completely cold.

For abandoned PA 61, it's absolutely covered in graffiti. That's a recent thing; websites like Alps Roads and PA Highways show nothing. I guess since the state won't bother to fix or do anything with it, may as well turn it into an art piece. The cracks in the road were at best warm, but I couldn't tell if it was just the sun or if it's actually the fire. (Also, the pavement is turning red on the open road itself. Not sure if it's accurate to say that the road is literally rusting.)

As for the town itself, I count 4 houses: 2 on PA 61, one on Big Mine Run Road, and one on a random street. There's not many remains of civilization otherwise; the best you can make out are sidewalk remnants, wood planks that might have been fences, some fire hydrants, the streets, and empty grass lots. Everything else is left to nature and whatever junk people throw on the ground. The only sign of a town is a municipal building and a stop sign; you'd have no clue you were in a town if you passed by at night!

At this point, since there's no danger of the fire ever returning to the town, why has nobody bothered to move back?

Why do you think the fires will never return? The fires are burning in open underground mines, so the fires can easily flow through the tunnels back under Centralia if fuel becomes available to allow them to burn, which in their weakened state could easily happen.

Besides...and the more important reason: the feds bought out the homeowners properties.  They're not going to put those properties back on the market. Even the people living there are doing so based on an agreement with the feds. They don't really even own their homes.

As for Graffiti Highway...that's been a thing for about 15 years. The area gained its fame due to the World Wide Web and websites devoted to weird stuff. The police hate that stuff, as it mostly causes people to trespass on private, closed and dangerous properties.  Due to that, there's been increased enforcement and arrests of people trespassing on Graffiti Highway.
From what I can gather, the deadly thing here isn't the actual fire, but the smoke from the fire. Considering the fact that the fire has moved on past abandoned PA 61, and have mostly stayed contained in the hills spreading in an east-west direction, then it's not hard to conclude that northward is an unlikely direction for the fire. Until something supernatural happens, it's probably going to stay that way.

But, since Centrailia is practically federal land now, I guess I was being a bit too idealistic.
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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1116 on: October 13, 2019, 02:31:17 PM »

The fire is not, and was never, directly underneath the settled part of the town. It's in the hills south of the town and spreading east and west from there. The issue was that toxic gases from the fire are seeping through the rock and coming out all over, including in the town. The fear was that this would include people's basements (like radon does now) and people would die of CO or CO2 poisoning.
CO2 is non-poisonous, but in enough quantity it can displace oxygen in the immediate area and people can smother to death.  Hydrogen sulfide is another poisonous gas that comes from coal fires.

Coal fires also cause toxic pollutants in the local ground and groundwater --

Coal fires also release more noxious pollutants.  When coal is burned in a power plant, operators supply oxygen so that the coal burns hot enough to burn less by-products.  Coal burning in an abandoned mine, however, typically gets far less oxygen.  As a result, the coal smolders and releases a wide range of partially oxidized compounds.  Testing at Centralia has revealed 45 organic and inorganic chemicals, including toxins like benzene, toluene, and xylene.  Fifty-six compounds have been identified in the gases from one of China’s coal fires.

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Coal_fires
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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1117 on: October 14, 2019, 10:37:29 PM »

The websites that refer to Centralia are many years old, and any website that talks about the area currently is probably referencing web sites and stories that are over a decade old.

That's also a problem with many travel sites.  The authors often have no experience of what they're talking about.  They're just basing their story on what was previously written.

When I visited, there was some graffiti here and there on old 61 but the coverage has increased in those ensuing 15 years.  I would like to go back and take more recent pictures, but I don't have the time as I did back then.

That kind of sums up the state of much of the information out there, particularly with niche hobbies like ours. There was decidedly a "golden age" of websites in the mid-to-late 90s, and into the early aughts, where people meticulously researched and wrote about all kinds of arcane and fascinating things, simply because they could, and because such information had never really been compiled for public consumption before. But since then, not only the Internet itself, but also the interests and priorities of its users, have changed markedly.
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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1118 on: October 26, 2019, 07:30:50 PM »

Here's new signage at the northern terminus of I-83 as it splits onto I-81 near Harrisburg.

Pixel 2

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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1119 on: October 28, 2019, 03:06:37 PM »

Here's new signage at the northern terminus of I-83 as it splits onto I-81 near Harrisburg.

Pixel 2



Whoever fabricated those signs should do them statewide. Pennsylvania is the rare state whose extruded-panel signs are more attractive than their increment-panel signs.
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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1120 on: October 28, 2019, 03:08:26 PM »

Here's new signage at the northern terminus of I-83 as it splits onto I-81 near Harrisburg.

Pixel 2



Whoever fabricated those signs should do them statewide. Pennsylvania is the rare state whose extruded-panel signs are more attractive than their increment-panel signs.

District 8 in particular has been great with actual information layout, too, even with the return to Clearview as seen in this last picture.
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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1121 on: October 28, 2019, 10:16:21 PM »

PennDOT recently replaced signage on the Fort Duquesne bridge in Pittsburgh (279). It requires a full overnight closure of the upper deck. Replaced were three individual signs with a new, large single sign. Oddly, highway gothic was used instead of Clearview. PennDOT says future overnight closures will occur to replace other signage on the bridge. Below is a picture of the new signage, and here is a link to the old signage: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4452657,-80.0095095,3a,75.000000y,342.993530h,78.895760t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1satcO9-JQSHQFjXIAthpZyg!2e0

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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1122 on: October 28, 2019, 11:23:37 PM »

PennDOT recently replaced signage on the Fort Duquesne bridge in Pittsburgh (279). It requires a full overnight closure of the upper deck. Replaced were three individual signs with a new, large single sign. Oddly, highway gothic was used instead of Clearview. PennDOT says future overnight closures will occur to replace other signage on the bridge. Below is a picture of the new signage, and here is a link to the old signage: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4452657,-80.0095095,3a,75.000000y,342.993530h,78.895760t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1satcO9-JQSHQFjXIAthpZyg!2e0



A surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one. Could just be an old contract finally getting done. Weird that the APL is missing an exit tab on the left, though, since the gore still has its exit sign.
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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1123 on: October 29, 2019, 12:48:33 AM »

Also odd to see the "TO PA-28" go first instead of the I-279 shield.

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Re: Pennsylvania
« Reply #1124 on: October 29, 2019, 02:05:50 PM »

I'm guessing the project is in progress, hence no Exit number panels?
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