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Author Topic: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway  (Read 2048 times)

mrhappy1261

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Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2019, 06:21:27 PM »

NYSDOT's federal spending is probably around 70% of its capital program.
NYSDOT is not MDOT.
And I bet MD and most states have a similar split due to the federal apportionment formulas and state tax revenues.

I'm not sure if they are too lazy to fix or widen ANYTHING. Because there's a big gap of I-95 express lanes just sitting there and not being expanded. And MD 295 they are not doing anything at all. Although they are studying I-95 west of it because of northbound traffic gets congested.
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Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2019, 08:42:57 PM »



Any governor that would push to take over a facility that needs millions to fix would be an absolute idiot.  There is no way MD could absorb that kind of fiscal liability.

Just give the NPS the funding to fix the road!
:-D
"Just have the Federal government fund road repairs!"
Man. I want what you're having. And more lanes on the BW.

Huh?  The bulk of transportation funding is federal.  NYSDOT's federal spending is probably around 70% of its capital program.  So, yes, fund the NPS, feds, rather than squeeze that liability into MD's capital program.
Granted all of that, but the NPS does not receive much funding for roads. The roads the Feds maintain are basically left to rot - see the GW Pkwy. potholes that became famous earlier this year.

famartin

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Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2019, 09:09:45 PM »



Any governor that would push to take over a facility that needs millions to fix would be an absolute idiot.  There is no way MD could absorb that kind of fiscal liability.

Just give the NPS the funding to fix the road!
:-D
"Just have the Federal government fund road repairs!"
Man. I want what you're having. And more lanes on the BW.

Huh?  The bulk of transportation funding is federal.  NYSDOT's federal spending is probably around 70% of its capital program.  So, yes, fund the NPS, feds, rather than squeeze that liability into MD's capital program.
Granted all of that, but the NPS does not receive much funding for roads. The roads the Feds maintain are basically left to rot - see the GW Pkwy. potholes that became famous earlier this year.

NPS’s arguement has always been that their parkways were never meant to become the commuter routes they now are. Of course, that would suggest that these roads do indeed need to be taken over by agencies more suited to their current usage.
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sprjus4

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Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2019, 09:14:44 PM »



Any governor that would push to take over a facility that needs millions to fix would be an absolute idiot.  There is no way MD could absorb that kind of fiscal liability.

Just give the NPS the funding to fix the road!
:-D
"Just have the Federal government fund road repairs!"
Man. I want what you're having. And more lanes on the BW.

Huh?  The bulk of transportation funding is federal.  NYSDOT's federal spending is probably around 70% of its capital program.  So, yes, fund the NPS, feds, rather than squeeze that liability into MD's capital program.
Granted all of that, but the NPS does not receive much funding for roads. The roads the Feds maintain are basically left to rot - see the GW Pkwy. potholes that became famous earlier this year.

NPS’s arguement has always been that their parkways were never meant to become the commuter routes they now are. Of course, that would suggest that these roads do indeed need to be taken over by agencies more suited to their current usage.
Wasn't the parkway built specifically as a main highway between DC and Baltimore? IIRC, it was the first limited-access highway between the two cities. It should've been expected it would draw a lot of traffic and become a major highway.
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Rothman

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Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2019, 09:21:13 PM »



Any governor that would push to take over a facility that needs millions to fix would be an absolute idiot.  There is no way MD could absorb that kind of fiscal liability.

Just give the NPS the funding to fix the road!
:-D
"Just have the Federal government fund road repairs!"
Man. I want what you're having. And more lanes on the BW.

Huh?  The bulk of transportation funding is federal.  NYSDOT's federal spending is probably around 70% of its capital program.  So, yes, fund the NPS, feds, rather than squeeze that liability into MD's capital program.
Granted all of that, but the NPS does not receive much funding for roads. The roads the Feds maintain are basically left to rot - see the GW Pkwy. potholes that became famous earlier this year.

If the NPS was properly funded, then they'd get the work done.  Their overall maintenance backlog and woeful understaffing is staggering.
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Rothman

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Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2019, 09:23:10 PM »



Any governor that would push to take over a facility that needs millions to fix would be an absolute idiot.  There is no way MD could absorb that kind of fiscal liability.

Just give the NPS the funding to fix the road!
:-D
"Just have the Federal government fund road repairs!"
Man. I want what you're having. And more lanes on the BW.

Huh?  The bulk of transportation funding is federal.  NYSDOT's federal spending is probably around 70% of its capital program.  So, yes, fund the NPS, feds, rather than squeeze that liability into MD's capital program.
Granted all of that, but the NPS does not receive much funding for roads. The roads the Feds maintain are basically left to rot - see the GW Pkwy. potholes that became famous earlier this year.

NPS’s arguement has always been that their parkways were never meant to become the commuter routes they now are. Of course, that would suggest that these roads do indeed need to be taken over by agencies more suited to their current usage.
Wasn't the parkway built specifically as a main highway between DC and Baltimore? IIRC, it was the first limited-access highway between the two cities. It should've been expected it would draw a lot of traffic and become a major highway.

I think it's more likely that the "parkway" was meant to be like the parkways in NY were originally intended:  As routes for the rich to drive on in their leisure time. 

If MD was to take it over and I were governor, I'd insist that it be eligible for 90% NHPP funding and demand an increase in apportionment and obligation limitation to cover the immediate needs.  The feds would probably balk at that, since they haven't looked at highway data for core apportionments in over a decade.  Recent federal acts were based upon FFY 09 apportionment percentages (e.g. FAST Act).

And, to be frank, there does seem to be some recent FHWA actions that seem more than politically motivated to hurt (well, poke, anyway) blue states.

(personal opinion emphasized)
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 09:27:00 PM by Rothman »
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Beltway

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Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2019, 10:40:49 PM »

It is -highly- unlikely that the NPS would -ever- give up control over one of its parkways in the Baltimore-Washington area.
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Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2019, 10:50:35 PM »

Unlikely perhaps, but not impossible.  And I distinctly recall articles in the local media within the past year suggesting that NPS was in preliminary negotiations with Maryland about taking over more of the BW Pkwy....with the caveat that any official transfer would require Congressional legislation.
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Beltway

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Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2019, 11:01:35 PM »

Unlikely perhaps, but not impossible.  And I distinctly recall articles in the local media within the past year suggesting that NPS was in preliminary negotiations with Maryland about taking over more of the BW Pkwy....with the caveat that any official transfer would require Congressional legislation.

There were proposals back in the 1980s to widen it to 8 lanes and upgrade to Interstate standards and allow trucks, but NPS objected so strenuously that it hasn't come up since.
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Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2019, 11:02:53 PM »

I know you don't like the WaPo...but they've had a couple articles on the resurrection of the idea (I believe coming from Governor Hogan) within the past year.  Perhaps that's why you weren't aware of the recent push?
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Beltway

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Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2019, 11:04:44 PM »

I know you don't like the WaPo...but they've had a couple articles on the resurrection of the idea (I believe coming from Governor Hogan) within the past year.  Perhaps that's why you weren't aware of the recent push?

The state governor wouldn't seem to have much influence over a federal agency ... who was proposing it and what agency?
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mrhappy1261

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Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2019, 11:10:54 PM »

https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/06/feds-md-agree-to-work-toward-b-w-parkway-toll-lanes/

That's some need stuff. It's about time that the highway needs widening. and look at all the other highways in Northern Virginia, DC, and Maryland. It's TERRIBLE. That's a reason why i don't like driving through there.

I hope that they would fix interchanges and not just widen the highway.
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Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2019, 11:17:48 PM »

It will be interesting to see what happens.
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cpzilliacus

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Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2019, 02:45:48 PM »

Unlikely perhaps, but not impossible.  And I distinctly recall articles in the local media within the past year suggesting that NPS was in preliminary negotiations with Maryland about taking over more of the BW Pkwy....with the caveat that any official transfer would require Congressional legislation.

There were proposals back in the 1980s to widen it to 8 lanes and upgrade to Interstate standards and allow trucks, but NPS objected so strenuously that it hasn't come up since.

But the senior MDOT and MDOT/SHA staff really did not want to have the added expense of maintaining the federal part of the B-W Parkway.
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cpzilliacus

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Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2019, 02:48:09 PM »

https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/06/feds-md-agree-to-work-toward-b-w-parkway-toll-lanes/

This would require approval of the U.S. House of Representatives and the U.S. Senate.  I am not at all sure that the Maryland Democratic members of either body are interested in approving such a proposal.
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AlexandriaVA

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Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2019, 08:03:29 PM »

I've always figured the NPS would want to get out of the highway business in the DC area, and instead focus on, you know, parks. The GW parkway is typically atrocious of course - definitely eat-or-be-eaten on that roadway. BW isn't any better - not a good place to break down.
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cpzilliacus

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Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2019, 09:55:17 PM »

Wasn't the parkway built specifically as a main highway between DC and Baltimore? IIRC, it was the first limited-access highway between the two cities. It should've been expected it would draw a lot of traffic and become a major highway.

Though they were not Interstate highways, several of the NPS Parkways in and near Washington, D.C. were built to provide a highway under federal control and ownership between D.C. and military bases located outside the city.   So far, some of the parkways have been used one time to get troops to and from D.C. - during and immediately after the April, 1968 riots in D.C. following the assassination of Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

The B-W Parkway was built in part to provide such a connection between Fort George G. Meade in Anne Arundel County and Washington - and in particular to provide a high-speed road to the National Security Agency (which moved to Fort Meade in the 1950's not long before the parkway was completed).

The southern George Washington Memorial Parkway was built to the south to provide a connection to George Washington's Mount Vernon, but also to provide a federal road connection to Fort Belvoir (though between Mount Vernon and the gate at Fort Belvoir, VA-235 must be used).

The northern part of the GWMP and the Clara Barton Parkway were built to provide a highway connection to what is now called the Naval Surface Warfare Center, Carderock Division on the Clara Baron Parkway near the Maryland end of the American Legion Bridge. In the past, U.S. Army troops have been encamped there for some reason in tents, even though this place is a U.S. Navy base.

The Suitland Parkway was built to provide a connection to Joint Base Andrews (formerly Andrews Air Force Base), even though the D.C. part is now maintained by DDOT, it is used by dignitaries (foreign and domestic) to travel by highway between Andrews and downtown D.C.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 10:09:55 PM by cpzilliacus »
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AlexandriaVA

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Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2019, 09:57:26 PM »

The Suitland Parkway was built to provide a connection to Joint Base Andrews (formerly Andrews Air Force Base), even though the D.C. part is now maintained by DDOT, it is used by dignitaries (foreign and domestic) to travel between Andrews and downtown D.C.

Fun fact - no Beltway connection despite an overpass!
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cpzilliacus

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Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2019, 10:02:33 PM »

I've always figured the NPS would want to get out of the highway business in the DC area, and instead focus on, you know, parks. The GW parkway is typically atrocious of course - definitely eat-or-be-eaten on that roadway. BW isn't any better - not a good place to break down.

One major reason why the states may not wish to deal with the current NPS parkways, in addition to not being state-of-the-art freeways, and needing a lot of work on infrastructure like stormwater management and drainage. Both the Baltimore-Washington and George Washington Memorial Parkway are on the National Register of Historical Places (both were added in the 1990s), which makes modification of any kind difficult, expensive and time-consuming (but not impossible). 

I did not check to see if the Suitland Parkway, Clara Barton  Parkway, Rock Creek and Potomac Parkway and Beach Drive (at least the D.C. part) are on the National Register or not, but they may well be.
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cpzilliacus

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Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2019, 10:14:31 PM »

The Suitland Parkway was built to provide a connection to Joint Base Andrews (formerly Andrews Air Force Base), even though the D.C. part is now maintained by DDOT, it is used by dignitaries (foreign and domestic) to travel between Andrews and downtown D.C.
Fun fact - no Beltway connection despite an overpass!

Fun fact - no room on the Capital Beltway between the half interchange at Forestville Road (signed MD-337 on the Inner Loop) and the cloverleaf interchange at MD-4 (Pennsylvania Avenue Extended).   On the Outer Loop, it is about 0.7 miles between the end of the entrance ramp from Forestville Road and MD-337 to the beginning of the exit ramp for MD-4 eastbound.   On the Inner Loop it is about 0.8 miles from the entrance ramp from MD-4 eastbound to the exit ramp for Forestville Road. 

I suspect that the SRC engineers (and their consulting engineers) that designed the Maryland part of the Capital Beltway also assumed that reaching the Suitland Parkway from the Beltway would not be unreasonable by way of MD-4 east to the Maryland end of the Parkway, or by MD-4 west to Forestville Road to the at-grade signalized intersection with the parkway.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 10:23:22 PM by cpzilliacus »
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sprjus4

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Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2019, 10:32:27 PM »

The Suitland Parkway was built to provide a connection to Joint Base Andrews (formerly Andrews Air Force Base), even though the D.C. part is now maintained by DDOT, it is used by dignitaries (foreign and domestic) to travel between Andrews and downtown D.C.
Fun fact - no Beltway connection despite an overpass!

Fun fact - no room on the Capital Beltway between the half interchange at Forestville Road (signed MD-337 on the Inner Loop) and the cloverleaf interchange at MD-4 (Pennsylvania Avenue Extended).   On the Outer Loop, it is about 0.7 miles between the end of the entrance ramp from Forestville Road and MD-337 to the beginning of the exit ramp for MD-4 eastbound.   On the Inner Loop it is about 0.8 miles from the entrance ramp from MD-4 eastbound to the exit ramp for Forestville Road. 

I suspect that the SRC engineers (and their consulting engineers) that designed the Maryland part of the Capital Beltway also assumed that reaching the Suitland Parkway from the Beltway would not be unreasonable by way of MD-4 east to the Maryland end of the Parkway, or by MD-4 west to Forestville Road to the at-grade signalized intersection with the parkway.
I think his comment wasn't referring to building an interchange now, rather an interchange should have been provided between the two from the beginning when the Beltway was built in the 60s.
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cpzilliacus

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Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2019, 11:29:12 PM »

I think his comment wasn't referring to building an interchange now, rather an interchange should have been provided between the two from the beginning when the Beltway was built in the 60s.

I cannot speak for him on that.  But what is there today (in terms of interchange ramps) was there when the Capital Beltway was completed and opened to traffic in 1964 (I remember the road then). Also consider that Andrews AFB then (Joint Base Andrews now) employs a lot of people (military and civilian) round-the-clock, and the federal government would likely not have gone along with a proposal to remove the Forestville Road ramps from the planned Beltway. 

The distance between the ramps at the half-interchange at Forestville Road and MD-4 is unchanged from 1964.  It is unworkable now, and it was unworkable then. 

At least MDOT/SHA has  a project under way to replace the signalized iat-grade ntersection at MD-4 and Suitland Parkway with a grade-separated interchange, though progress seems very, very slow.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 11:32:58 PM by cpzilliacus »
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sprjus4

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Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
« Reply #48 on: July 29, 2019, 11:38:42 PM »

It is unworkable now, and it was unworkable then. 
Remove the ramps at Forestville Rd, and convert the interchange at Suitland Rd into a full interchange. That opens up room for an interchange at Suitland Pkwy.

Use braided ramps also if necessary.

EDIT - Here's a conceptual design that could have worked when I-495 was built and still serve everything the current setup does, with the addition of Suitland Pkwy. In this design, the interchange at Forestville Rd is eliminated.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 11:46:38 PM by sprjus4 »
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Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2019, 08:45:19 AM »

A few things:

- The 4-laning and limited access on Route 4 predates the Beltway.  It was considered a more important route than Suitland Parkway, especially considering there were long-range plans at the time for a freeway upgrade of Route 4 from what is now the Beltway to Upper Marlborough.

- Route 4 is too close to Suitland Parkway to have interchanges at both.  Route 4 was deemed more important.

- More important than having a Suitland Parkway interchange at the Beltway would be a Suitland interchange at Forestville Rd.
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