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Maryland

Started by Alps, May 22, 2011, 12:10:09 AM

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sprjus4

Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 11, 2019, 11:01:48 PM
I am not able to go into more detail here, but will gladly explain privately.
Could you elaborate more in PM? I'm curious to know as of specifically how they do.


cpzilliacus

Quote from: sprjus4 on September 12, 2019, 12:01:20 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 11, 2019, 11:01:48 PM
I am not able to go into more detail here, but will gladly explain privately.
Could you elaborate more in PM? I'm curious to know as of specifically how they do.

It is not from a public source and I prefer not to.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

1995hoo

On a road like the ICC, it would be relatively straightforward to use E-ZPass to determine speed for the majority of users because most users presumably pass under multiple gantries. Since you know the distance from gantry "A" to gantry "B," it's easy to determine the minimum amount of time it would take to go between them if the driver is obeying the speed limit (especially easy on that road since the speed limit is 60 mph for most of its length).

This is similar to the insidious "average speed check" system used in some work zones in the United Kingdom–there will be multiple speed cameras some distance apart, they all read your number plate, and if you passed them too quickly, you get a ticket. (Frankly, I'm mildly surprised neither DC nor Maryland has adopted that sort of system.)

I'm guessing from the way cpzilliacus worded his comments that Maryland's system probably does something different from what I just described, but in deference to his most recent reply I will not push the issue. I just wanted to mention one obvious technique they could use if they chose.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

odditude

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 13, 2019, 03:35:57 PM
On a road like the ICC, it would be relatively straightforward to use E-ZPass to determine speed for the majority of users because most users presumably pass under multiple gantries. Since you know the distance from gantry "A" to gantry "B," it's easy to determine the minimum amount of time it would take to go between them if the driver is obeying the speed limit (especially easy on that road since the speed limit is 60 mph for most of its length).

This is similar to the insidious "average speed check" system used in some work zones in the United Kingdom–there will be multiple speed cameras some distance apart, they all read your number plate, and if you passed them too quickly, you get a ticket. (Frankly, I'm mildly surprised neither DC nor Maryland has adopted that sort of system.)

I'm guessing from the way cpzilliacus worded his comments that Maryland's system probably does something different from what I just described, but in deference to his most recent reply I will not push the issue. I just wanted to mention one obvious technique they could use if they chose.

if the tag sensor and the plate camera fire at different times and share a common time source, you could compare timestamps to determine speed.

Rothman

Last I heard, E-ZPass was used for traffic data -- identifying information is stripped away -- but cannot be used for speed enforcement.

However, it can be used to find out if you're guilty of murder, like in the infamous Porco case.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

sprjus4

Quote from: Rothman on September 15, 2019, 10:49:59 PM
Last I heard, E-ZPass was used for traffic data -- identifying information is stripped away -- but cannot be used for speed enforcement.

However, it can be used to find out if you're guilty of murder, like in the infamous Porco case.
After doing a little bit of research on the Porco case, it appears all that happened in regards to tolls was that a toll collector mentioned seeing the same car pass through around 10pm and 2am on the New York State Thruway. Remember, this was the early 2000s and while electronic tolling did exist, it was relatively new and likely not in place at the time.

froggie

Quote from: sprjus4Remember, this was the early 2000s and while electronic tolling did exist, it was relatively new and likely not in place at the time.

Not the case.  The Thruway was the first agency to implement EZPass, beginning in 1993.  It was fully installed Thruway-wide by the late '90s.

1995hoo

Quote from: Rothman on September 15, 2019, 10:49:59 PM
Last I heard, E-ZPass was used for traffic data -- identifying information is stripped away -- but cannot be used for speed enforcement.

....

I believe it can be used for speed enforcement (or could be if a given state's law allowed for it) but in practice isn't so used, partly because it would discourage people from getting E-ZPass.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

sprjus4

Quote from: froggie on September 16, 2019, 08:46:44 AM
Quote from: sprjus4Remember, this was the early 2000s and while electronic tolling did exist, it was relatively new and likely not in place at the time.

Not the case.  The Thruway was the first agency to implement EZPass, beginning in 1993.  It was fully installed Thruway-wide by the late '90s.
Nonetheless, E-ZPass was not the way they found that person - it was an observation by a toll collector.

froggie

^ Fair enough.  But you were implying that EZPass did not exist at the time when it already been added some years prior.

mrsman

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 16, 2019, 09:01:28 AM
Quote from: Rothman on September 15, 2019, 10:49:59 PM
Last I heard, E-ZPass was used for traffic data -- identifying information is stripped away -- but cannot be used for speed enforcement.

....

I believe it can be used for speed enforcement (or could be if a given state's law allowed for it) but in practice isn't so used, partly because it would discourage people from getting E-ZPass.

That's right.  But if they install cameras to track toll violators (or allow for a toll by plate system), then those cameras can be used as part of an automatic toll system and not use EZ-Pass at all.  I would imagine that the contract between E-ZPass and the state authorities prevent using E-ZPass as a direct measure for speed enforcement.

In MD, photo enforced speed limits along freeways are only allowed in construction zones.  (On surface streets, they are limited to school zones, but in MoCo they can be used just about anywhere the speed limit is 40 or lower.)  So state law prevents the gantries from issuing an automatic ticket.  However, they could still use the technology to inform police of a violation and then radio the police officers to issue a ticket.  In the early days of the ICC, when it was really empty as people didn't want to pay tolls, you would generally see a bunch of police cars in the shoulder lying in wait to nab someone for exceeding the speed limit, moreso than on similar roadways like I-95 or the Beltway.

MASTERNC

#1736
The second northbound speed camera on I-95 will be activated Monday near Bel Air.  The frustrating thing is the MDTA is burying these releases - they are not on the homepage but rather in the Travel Advisories Blog of the News Room (or you have to look at their Twitter feed).  I believe they're supposed to publicize deployment but they seem to be not following the spirit of that law.

https://mdta.maryland.gov/blog-category/mdta-traffic-advisories/work-zone-speed-camera-enforcement-begins-northbound-i-95

Beltway

Quote from: MASTERNC on September 19, 2019, 02:08:04 PM
The second northbound speed camera on I-95 will be activated Monday near Bel Air.  The frustrating thing is the MDTA is burying these releases - they are not on the homepage but rather in the Travel Advisories Blog of the News Room (or you have to look at their Twitter feed).  I believe they're supposed to publicize deployment but they seem to be not following the spirit of that law.

I wish there was some way that they could quicken the completion of the Beltway bridge replacements near Glen Arden.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

sprjus4

Quote from: MASTERNC on September 19, 2019, 02:08:04 PM
The second northbound speed camera on I-95 will be activated Monday near Bel Air.  The frustrating thing is the MDTA is burying these releases - they are not on the homepage but rather in the Travel Advisories Blog of the News Room (or you have to look at their Twitter feed).  I believe they're supposed to publicize deployment but they seem to be not following the spirit of that law.

https://mdta.maryland.gov/blog-category/mdta-traffic-advisories/work-zone-speed-camera-enforcement-begins-northbound-i-95
By law, they also are required to post adequate signage on the freeway warning that a speed trap camera is ahead IIRC.

mrsman

Quote from: sprjus4 on September 19, 2019, 05:01:52 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on September 19, 2019, 02:08:04 PM
The second northbound speed camera on I-95 will be activated Monday near Bel Air.  The frustrating thing is the MDTA is burying these releases - they are not on the homepage but rather in the Travel Advisories Blog of the News Room (or you have to look at their Twitter feed).  I believe they're supposed to publicize deployment but they seem to be not following the spirit of that law.

https://mdta.maryland.gov/blog-category/mdta-traffic-advisories/work-zone-speed-camera-enforcement-begins-northbound-i-95
By law, they also are required to post adequate signage on the freeway warning that a speed trap camera is ahead IIRC.

Yes. And in my experience the signage on the freeway warning of a camera is pretty good.

ixnay

Speaking of cameras, the webcams on the wb Bay Bridge are showing three lanes of wb traffic.  Wasn't the right lane going to be closed starting this week for lonnnnnnng term construction?

ixnay

The Washington/Baltimore/Arlington CSA has two Key Bridges, a Minnesota Avenue, and a Mannasota Avenue.

famartin

Quote from: ixnay on September 26, 2019, 08:25:06 AM
Speaking of cameras, the webcams on the wb Bay Bridge are showing three lanes of wb traffic.  Wasn't the right lane going to be closed starting this week for lonnnnnnng term construction?

ixnay
Delayed til the 30th.
https://baybridge.maryland.gov

ixnay

It's underway.  This morning it looks like the crew is working on the east channel bridge per the CHART webcams.

ixnay
The Washington/Baltimore/Arlington CSA has two Key Bridges, a Minnesota Avenue, and a Mannasota Avenue.

MASTERNC

#1743
So I drove the Hatem Bridge today for the first time since it went cashless.  What is interesting is that the gantry before the bridge does not seem to be active.  Instead, there are signs at the toll plaza that note to keep moving (where "Bill By Mail"  is also mentioned) and the displays still show "Paid"  when driving through.  Also, the signage on approach to the bridge mentions nothing about the Bill by Mail method. Instead, the guide signs say "E-ZPass"  and "No Cash" .

I think the point is MD's signage makes it seem like the cashless roads are exclusive to E-ZPass rather than open to non-tagholders via video tolling.


bluecountry

Why is Maryland expanding the I-95 Toll lanes only northbound to Rt 24, and not southbound?
Any plans to do it both ways?

Revive 755

Quote from: MASTERNC on October 19, 2019, 03:37:38 PM
So I drove the Hatem Bridge today for the first time since it went cashless.  What is interesting is that the gantry before the bridge does not seem to be active.  Instead, there are signs at the toll plaza that note to keep moving (where "Bill By Mail"  is also mentioned) and the displays still show "Paid"  when driving through.  Also, the signage on approach to the bridge mentions nothing about the Bill by Mail method. Instead, the guide signs say "E-ZPass"  and "No Cash" .

I think the point is MD's signage makes it seem like the cashless roads are exclusive to E-ZPass rather than open to non-tagholders via video tolling.


Based on Chapter 2F of the National Edition of the MUTCD and Figure 2F-4, the signs would need the word "ONLY" under the E-Z Pass symbol if only E-Z Passes drivers could use the bridge.  Consider how well signing is done in the real world though . . . particularly when the pictured sign may be in violation of the MUTCD's prohibition of having auxiliary signs directly mounted onto bigger green signs with the "NO CASH" plaque (MUTCD 2D.16, Paragraph 06).

Might be something to comment on for the next edition of the MUTCD.

vdeane

Quote from: bluecountry on October 26, 2019, 11:37:50 AM
Why is Maryland expanding the I-95 Toll lanes only northbound to Rt 24, and not southbound?
Any plans to do it both ways?
The MD legislature passed a law that set a debt limit for MDTA, severely curtailing their ability to build new facilities or expand existing ones.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Beltway

Quote from: vdeane on October 26, 2019, 07:06:38 PM
Quote from: bluecountry on October 26, 2019, 11:37:50 AM
Why is Maryland expanding the I-95 Toll lanes only northbound to Rt 24, and not southbound?
Any plans to do it both ways?
The MD legislature passed a law that set a debt limit for MDTA, severely curtailing their ability to build new facilities or expand existing ones.

Economics and sound financial management has a way of doing that!
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

cpzilliacus

Quote from: Beltway on October 26, 2019, 10:23:43 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 26, 2019, 07:06:38 PM
Quote from: bluecountry on October 26, 2019, 11:37:50 AM
Why is Maryland expanding the I-95 Toll lanes only northbound to Rt 24, and not southbound?
Any plans to do it both ways?
The MD legislature passed a law that set a debt limit for MDTA, severely curtailing their ability to build new facilities or expand existing ones.

Economics and sound financial management has a way of doing that!

The General Assembly does not need to set a limit on MDTA debt, since it is paid-back by toll revenues, not tax dollars.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Alps

Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 27, 2019, 12:34:00 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 26, 2019, 10:23:43 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 26, 2019, 07:06:38 PM
Quote from: bluecountry on October 26, 2019, 11:37:50 AM
Why is Maryland expanding the I-95 Toll lanes only northbound to Rt 24, and not southbound?
Any plans to do it both ways?
The MD legislature passed a law that set a debt limit for MDTA, severely curtailing their ability to build new facilities or expand existing ones.

Economics and sound financial management has a way of doing that!

The General Assembly does not need to set a limit on MDTA debt, since it is paid-back by toll revenues, not tax dollars.
Exactly. Their capacity to bond on the open market is what should determine the debt they can carry. If they try to raise more than they're worth, the bonds will sink and I would think they have enough financial acumen to avoid that scenario. NJTA is an example of an agency that does an excellent job of financial forecasting and bonding within its means.



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