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Early US 91 south terminus

Started by Max Rockatansky, September 22, 2019, 11:21:40 PM

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Max Rockatansky

This week I posted a couple early Rand McNally Maps of California on the Gribblenation Facebook Page showing US 91 ending at US 60 near Bannock in eastern San Bernardino County before the final US Route System was approved.  Ultimately I did some digging into the vintage maps from California and Nevada, there appears to be causality that US 91 really did briefly end in Daggett instead of Barstow.  It appears that while the 1925 extension of Legislative Route 31 was being built between Barstow and the Nevada State Line that US 91 may have been temporarily aligned on the Arrowhead Trail to US 66 in Daggett.  It seems that by 1930 enough of LRN 31 between Barstow and the Nevada State Line was constructed to shift the south terminus of US 91 there.  The map data makes actually a pretty compelling case for Daggett being the original terminus of US 91 which can be seen on the blog post below:

https://www.gribblenation.org/2019/09/the-vauge-original-southern-terminus-of.html


The Ghostbuster

Although it doesn't pertain to the subject title, I think US 466 should have always ended at US 91 in Barstow. The long 91/466 co-currency to Las Vegas (and later the US 93/466 from Las Vegas to Kingman) seems like a wasteful co-currency to me. There's no reason to me why the Barstow-to-Las Vegas route couldn't solely be US 91. Of course, US 60 and US 70 were once co-designated from Globe, AZ to Los Angeles, CA, when either 60 or 70 solely should have designated along that route.

TheStranger

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 23, 2019, 01:44:38 PM
Although it doesn't pertain to the subject title, I think US 466 should have always ended at US 91 in Barstow. The long 91/466 co-currency to Las Vegas (and later the US 93/466 from Las Vegas to Kingman) seems like a wasteful co-currency to me. There's no reason to me why the Barstow-to-Las Vegas route couldn't solely be US 91. Of course, US 60 and US 70 were once co-designated from Globe, AZ to Los Angeles, CA, when either 60 or 70 solely should have designated along that route.

If I'm not mistaken, the section of US 93 from Vegas to Kingman was at one point just US 466, before 93 was extended south into Arizona.
Chris Sampang

NE2

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 23, 2019, 01:44:38 PM
Although it doesn't pertain to the subject title, I'm going to give my own irrelevant opinions.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: TheStranger on September 23, 2019, 01:58:31 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 23, 2019, 01:44:38 PM
Although it doesn't pertain to the subject title, I think US 466 should have always ended at US 91 in Barstow. The long 91/466 co-currency to Las Vegas (and later the US 93/466 from Las Vegas to Kingman) seems like a wasteful co-currency to me. There's no reason to me why the Barstow-to-Las Vegas route couldn't solely be US 91. Of course, US 60 and US 70 were once co-designated from Globe, AZ to Los Angeles, CA, when either 60 or 70 solely should have designated along that route.

If I'm not mistaken, the section of US 93 from Vegas to Kingman was at one point just US 466, before 93 was extended south into Arizona.

Correct, US 466 was first over the Hoover Dam circa 1935.  US 93 was extended I believe until 1938.  Even stranger US 466 never actually touched US 66 in California as it barely missed it in Barstow and was connected via US 91. 

sparker

As the Arrowhead Trail (the first iteration of US 91 after it was relocated from the current US 95 alignment north of US 66) followed the LA & SL railroad -- which struck off south from the current I-15 alignment north of Daggett in order to intersect the ATSF main line there (it operated from there SW to Riverside over ATSF on a trackage-right arrangement), it makes sense that US 91 would have followed it into Daggett rather than its later route to Barstow; the Arrowhead Trail was essentially a lineside "service route" for that rail line up to where it departed from the original US 91 alignment at Afton Canyon, which was too narrow to accommodate both a rail line and a parallel roadway.  While the rail line "detoured" through Kelso and Cima and even today does not rejoin I-15 until well into NV, the Arrowhead Trail took a virtual "beeline" through Baker and over Mountain Pass over grades that would stymie rail surveyors, who by necessity have always sought out a pathway with lower gradients. 

Max Rockatansky

Made an update to the existing US 91 terminus blog.  The State of California requested the terminus of US 91 be moved from Daggett to Barstow in January 1930 which ultimately approved by the AASHO Executive Committee in May 1930.

https://www.gribblenation.org/2019/09/the-vauge-original-southern-terminus-of.html?showComment=1569360367479

sparker

Nice pictures -- as usual -- accompanying your article, Max.  Of particular interest is the one along US 95 showing that San Bernardino County 66 signage has been applied to the original US 66 alignment on Goffs Road next to the BNSF main line in the same fashion as the signage of National Old Trails Highway between Victorville and Barstow.  At this point I'll presume that all of the existing US 66 surface-road mileage east of Victorville has been similarly signed, particularly the southern "arc" through Amboy.   It'd be nice if they did likewise to Cajon Blvd. in northern San Bernardino itself, possibly with stand-along trailblazers from CA 210 and I-215. 

Max Rockatansky

Regarding US 66 in Victorville, it was fully signed in the City when I visited last year.

sparker

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 02, 2020, 11:46:16 PM
Regarding US 66 in Victorville, it was fully signed in the City when I visited last year.

Historic US 66 has been signed through Victorville on both 7th and D streets for decades; the US 66 historical museum is located on D a block or so west of the 7th Street intersection, where EB US 66 turned left from 7th to D heading out of town to the north.  That town, more than any other along CA's portion of the route, is more inured to the historical aspects of 66 than anywhere else in the state.  Incidentally, that section of Historical 66 is co-signed with one of the better-signed Interstate business loops (Biz I-15).  The county 66 signage doesn't begin until NW of the D Street interchange with I-15, which is the northern terminus of Biz 15 as well as the point where CA 18 turns south onto I-15 for a few miles; the historical 66 signage ceases at that point, with county 66 signage taking over from there. 

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: sparker on November 03, 2020, 05:31:50 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 02, 2020, 11:46:16 PM
Regarding US 66 in Victorville, it was fully signed in the City when I visited last year.

Historic US 66 has been signed through Victorville on both 7th and D streets for decades; the US 66 historical museum is located on D a block or so west of the 7th Street intersection, where EB US 66 turned left from 7th to D heading out of town to the north.  That town, more than any other along CA's portion of the route, is more inured to the historical aspects of 66 than anywhere else in the state.  Incidentally, that section of Historical 66 is co-signed with one of the better-signed Interstate business loops (Biz I-15).  The county 66 signage doesn't begin until NW of the D Street interchange with I-15, which is the northern terminus of Biz 15 as well as the point where CA 18 turns south onto I-15 for a few miles; the historical 66 signage ceases at that point, with county 66 signage taking over from there.

Notably Barstow is getting big on doing it's own thing with US 66 signage:

https://flic.kr/p/23AEu9M

sparker

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 03, 2020, 05:45:35 PM
Quote from: sparker on November 03, 2020, 05:31:50 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 02, 2020, 11:46:16 PM
Regarding US 66 in Victorville, it was fully signed in the City when I visited last year.

Historic US 66 has been signed through Victorville on both 7th and D streets for decades; the US 66 historical museum is located on D a block or so west of the 7th Street intersection, where EB US 66 turned left from 7th to D heading out of town to the north.  That town, more than any other along CA's portion of the route, is more inured to the historical aspects of 66 than anywhere else in the state.  Incidentally, that section of Historical 66 is co-signed with one of the better-signed Interstate business loops (Biz I-15).  The county 66 signage doesn't begin until NW of the D Street interchange with I-15, which is the northern terminus of Biz 15 as well as the point where CA 18 turns south onto I-15 for a few miles; the historical 66 signage ceases at that point, with county 66 signage taking over from there.

Notably Barstow is getting big on doing it's own thing with US 66 signage:

https://flic.kr/p/23AEu9M

Clearly this is a local-booster/chamber of commerce-initiated piece of signage (the '57 Chevy bolsters that attribution).  Defaulting to the popularized "ROUTE 66" format rather than a more accurate depiction of historical signage points to a more blatant PR effort rather than any attempt to engage in a coordinated approach toward preservation of the historic corridor.  Now -- I haven't traveled through downtown Barstow for about a decade -- my question would be regarding the presence of either a continuation of the "county 66" signage through town or, alternately, the quasi-standardized beige rectangular signage featuring a "classic" shield from the 30's through the early '50's -- is such signage currently posted?   

ClassicHasClass

QuoteIt'd be nice if they did likewise to Cajon Blvd. in northern San Bernardino itself

Given that these are city streets and the City of San Bernardino is a governmental basket case, good luck.

sparker

Quote from: ClassicHasClass on November 05, 2020, 01:03:28 PM
QuoteIt'd be nice if they did likewise to Cajon Blvd. in northern San Bernardino itself

Given that these are city streets and the City of San Bernardino is a governmental basket case, good luck.

Generally it's not the city but one or another historical society that pays for and produces the signage.  Occasionally they'll post the signage themselves, but most cities require one or more employees to be present (for liability purposes), so that may pose an issue unless a reimbursement arrangement has been made.  The issue is that such societies often have funding shortfalls themselves, so taking on an outflung section within an urban setting such as Cajon Blvd -- considering the signage would likely be extended south on Mount Vernon Avenue as far as either 4th or 5th Streets, the historical US 66 alignments.  Since the streets are no longer continuous (although their current configurations do intersect just south of Highland Ave.), it may be considered that signage just isn't worth the effort, since such signage more often than not doesn't reflect directional changes unless lower bannered arrows are appended to the normal historical shield assemblies.  Although I for one would like to see it done, I'd certainly understand if it weren't!

Max Rockatansky

Speaking of Historic US Route signs.  There has been a ton of those (Historic US 99) posted from Red Bluff northward to Weed in recent year.  I ran into the person who posts them on Facebook, apparently it's a passion project that they pay for. 

sparker

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 05, 2020, 04:07:01 PM
Speaking of Historic US Route signs.  There has been a ton of those (Historic US 99) posted from Red Bluff northward to Weed in recent year.  I ran into the person who posts them on Facebook, apparently it's a passion project that they pay for. 

Right -- they're pretty prolific in the Dunsmuir area; quite a bit of the original US 99 alignment still exists north of Castle Crags. 

skluth

Quote from: sparker on November 05, 2020, 06:39:26 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 05, 2020, 04:07:01 PM
Speaking of Historic US Route signs.  There has been a ton of those (Historic US 99) posted from Red Bluff northward to Weed in recent year.  I ran into the person who posts them on Facebook, apparently it's a passion project that they pay for. 

Right -- they're pretty prolific in the Dunsmuir area; quite a bit of the original US 99 alignment still exists north of Castle Crags.

I remember seeing some Historic US 395 signs along the I-15 corridor between Temecula and San Diego last time I drove down that way. I didn't take any pics though. This pic is from the SD County website.


Max Rockatansky

Too bad nobody has bothered to sign Historic US 60/70 out on Box Canyon Road.  I'd suggest Chuckwalla Valley Road, but I think that has passed into a dark future where only people like me will bother seeking it out.

sparker

Quote from: skluth on November 05, 2020, 07:04:45 PM
Quote from: sparker on November 05, 2020, 06:39:26 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 05, 2020, 04:07:01 PM
Speaking of Historic US Route signs.  There has been a ton of those (Historic US 99) posted from Red Bluff northward to Weed in recent year.  I ran into the person who posts them on Facebook, apparently it's a passion project that they pay for. 

Right -- they're pretty prolific in the Dunsmuir area; quite a bit of the original US 99 alignment still exists north of Castle Crags.

I remember seeing some Historic US 395 signs along the I-15 corridor between Temecula and San Diego last time I drove down that way. I didn't take any pics though. This pic is from the SD County website.



That sign looks like one posted on the section of old US 395 between Escondido and CA 76 that remains intact east of the present I-15 alignment.  But that depiction of a 395 shield likely never existed; when the DOH went from squared-off numbers to standard Highway Gothic, button-copy accompanied that change.  Still, it's nice that there are groups out there willing to expend the time and effort to post such signage!

The Ghostbuster

I think it would be cool if Historic US 91 signs were posted between Long Beach, CA and Brigham City, UT; as well as between Idaho Falls, ID and Sweetgrass, MT.

sparker

Although there were several iterations of US 91 alignments over the years, in SoCal it could be signed continuously on appropriate existing streets from the corner of PCH and Atlantic in Long Beach all the way out to Tustin Ave. and "Old" Santa Ana Canyon Road in east Anaheim, Santa Ana Canyon Road in Anaheim Hills (as far east as Yorba Linda Blvd.), and the continuous run of 6th Street in Corona, Magnolia Ave., Market St., and North Main Street in Riverside -- but taking it over Russell Street (now simply a city street dead-ending at the present CA 91 freeway) would today be historically accurate but pointless.  From there up to Highgrove the old US 91 alignment is buried under the CA 91 and I-215 freeways; it diverges onto surface streets again at the La Cadena exit, with the alignment up to Mount Vernon in San Bernardino being intact through Colton -- with two 90-degree turns onto old US 70/99 -- so that would tie in with the Cajon Blvd. alignment that is discussed in the Historic US 66 thread.  Of course, US 91 historical signage could be "multiplexed" with that of US 66 all the way from Victorville to Barstow before breaking away in the center of that town.  But beyond that, I-15 mostly lies atop historic US 91 except for a few miles near Calico and the business loop through Baker.  But a lot of it could be done, if a viable "US 91 Historical Society" were in existence in the states through which it ran (the NV and UT chapters would likely have to sign the short mileage in AZ).  If that occurs, more power to historically accurate signage!

US 89

I'd love to see Historic 91 signage in Utah, though it might be overkill in the Wasatch Front area where most of it is still US 89. I can see it being a more viable idea in some of the smaller towns in the southern part of the state.

ClassicHasClass

A note on the San Diego Historic 395 signs: the county did those on county roads, and paid for them. However, the HR 395s on I-15 were privately paid for (yours truly paid for one of them).

I believe the Cities of Lake Elsinore and Riverside also paid for the HR 395s in their respective jurisdictions.

Max Rockatansky

I'd like to see US 99 signed with Historic signage in much of the Central Valley as there are huge segments which still exist.  The main turn off for me locally has been how bastardized the City of Fresno treats the older segments.  There is no way to get a route with actual continuity through Fresno north of Cherry Avenue as Broadway is all hacked up.  Considering the Belmont Subway likely won't survive the HSR (unless the HSR doesn't survive the election) there would be much left aside from Golden State Boulevard south of downtown. 

That said, I do think cities like Modesto, Madera, and Merced have an opportunity to get historic corridors going just west Bakersfield did. 

pderocco

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 05, 2020, 07:15:30 PM
Too bad nobody has bothered to sign Historic US 60/70 out on Box Canyon Road.  I'd suggest Chuckwalla Valley Road, but I think that has passed into a dark future where only people like me will bother seeking it out.

I got the impression that the closures on Chuckwalla were going to be permanent. No real point to fixing the washouts. It's not a very interesting road, unlike Box Canyon. BTW, they're improving access to the latter by building a 66th Ave overpass over 111 and the railroad.



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