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Author Topic: Fixing the US's time zones  (Read 3525 times)

tradephoric

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Re: Fixing the US's time zones
« Reply #75 on: November 05, 2019, 01:49:38 PM »

The study cited a couple posts above was from when DST was extended into early March and to the first week of November.  It doesn't cover the winter.

Yes, that study only analyzed the extended DST.  But just think, during the winter people need heat and light right?  Maximizing the amount of time the sun can provide these two necessities while Americans are awake during the winter should help reduce energy costs.  Anybody who disagrees with this would have to argue one of these 3 points.

1.  Permanent DST doesn't maximize Americans waking hours of daylight during the winter.
2.  The sun doesn't provide natural heat and light.
3.  Americans don't turn down their thermostats or tun off the lights when they go to bed.

Perhaps with more waking hours of light in the evening, people will go out more during the winter and there would be an increase in fuel consumption.  But the business community probably won't mind if people are out and about an hour longer during the winter spending their money at shops and restaurants.  What a horrible thing.
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Re: Fixing the US's time zones
« Reply #76 on: November 05, 2019, 01:51:45 PM »

The study cited a couple posts above was from when DST was extended into early March and to the first week of November.  It doesn't cover the winter.

Yes, that study only analyzed the extended DST.  But just think, during the winter people need heat and light right?  Maximizing the amount of time the sun can provide these two necessities while Americans are awake during the winter should help reduce energy costs.  Anybody who disagrees with this would have to argue one of these 3 points.

1.  Permanent DST doesn't maximize Americans waking hours of daylight during the winter.
2.  The sun doesn't provide natural heat and light.
3.  Americans don't turn down their thermostats or tun off the lights when they go to bed.

Perhaps with more waking hours of light in the evening, people will go out more during the winter and there would be an increase in fuel consumption.  But the business community probably won't mind if people are out and about an hour longer during the winter spending their money at shops and restaurants.  What a horrible thing.

"Waking hours of daylight" is not what we are trying to maximize. The body naturally wakes up after it gets light and goes to bed after it gets dark.
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tradephoric

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Re: Fixing the US's time zones
« Reply #77 on: November 05, 2019, 02:00:55 PM »

"Waking hours of daylight" is not what we are trying to maximize. The body naturally wakes up after it gets light and goes to bed after it gets dark.

In American society, people go to bed after they know who won the super bowl.  It doesn't matter if the sun set 3 hours or 4 hours prior to the conclusion of the big game.  Only after the big game do Americans go to bed.  Yet the kids still got to be at school the next day by 7:30AM, leaving it  impossible for them to get the recommended amount of sleep their developing brains need and still make it to school on time.  In this country our kids are destined to fall into two categories...

1.  Social outcasts who don't know who Tom Brady is.
2.  Mushed brained kids who watch the super bowl but don't get enough sleep.
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Re: Fixing the US's time zones
« Reply #78 on: November 05, 2019, 02:03:40 PM »

"Waking hours of daylight" is not what we are trying to maximize. The body naturally wakes up after it gets light and goes to bed after it gets dark.

In American society, people go to bed after they know who won the super bowl.  It doesn't matter if the sun set 3 hours or 4 hours prior to the conclusion of the big game.  Only after the big game do Americans go to bed.  Yet the kids still got to be at school the next day by 7:30AM, leaving it  impossible for them to get the recommended amount of sleep their developing brains need and still make it to school on time.  In this country our kids are destined to fall into two categories...

1.  Social outcasts who don't know who Tom Brady is.
2.  Mushed brained kids who watch the super bowl but don't get enough sleep.

That's one day a year. Also, DST would not change either the Super Bowl time or the school starting time, nor would shifting every time zone by one hour.
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renegade

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Re: Fixing the US's time zones
« Reply #79 on: November 05, 2019, 02:07:36 PM »

When we run into another dzlsabe-type thread, should we start talking about DST to force a lock?
We are already there.  This is another thread that should have been locked an hour ago.   :sombrero:
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webny99

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Re: Fixing the US's time zones
« Reply #80 on: November 05, 2019, 02:13:39 PM »

[quote author=tradephoric In this country our kids are destined to fall into two categories...

1.  Social outcasts who don't know who Tom Brady is.
2.  Mushed brained kids who watch the super bowl but don't get enough sleep.

I'm not a kid anymore... but when I was, I didn't fall into either of those categories, because I knew who Tom Brady was, but didn't watch the Super Bowl. I very well could  have been lacking sleep, but for different reasons.

However, I don't think the Super Bowl is of any relevance to this discussion. Saying we should go to permanent DST because of the Super Bowl is like saying the Thruway should be widened for Bills games, except 8 times more ridiculous*. There are many powerful and convincing arguments for making changes to DST, but the first Sunday in February is not one of them. Not even close.


*There are 8 Bills games per year, and only Super Bowl.
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kalvado

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Re: Fixing the US's time zones
« Reply #81 on: November 05, 2019, 02:21:24 PM »

(Edited to add: the above may have answered part of michravera's inquiry as to where it isn't possible to have pre-7:30 sunrise AND post-4:30 sunset. Not quite possible here, as we have 8:59 of daylight on the winter solstice! Interestingly, Syracuse has almost exactly your requirement (7:30 sunrise, 4:30 sunset). So, depending on your theory, Syracuse should either be the midpoint or the western boundary of EST. I'd prefer midpoint!)
7.30a sunrize - 4.30p sunset requires 10 hours of daylight for uniform implementation.
That is, at the edge of time zone you should go from 7.30a-5.30p to 6.30a-4.30p daylight. Of course, assuming 1 hour steps.
And for reference - Atlanta has the shortest day of 9.54...
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tradephoric

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Re: Fixing the US's time zones
« Reply #82 on: November 05, 2019, 02:47:52 PM »

However, I don't think the Super Bowl is of any relevance to this discussion. Saying we should go to permanent DST because of the Super Bowl is like saying the Thruway should be widened for Bills games, except 8 times more ridiculous*. There are many powerful and convincing arguments for making changes to DST, but the first Sunday in February is not one of them. Not even close.
*There are 8 Bills games per year, and only Super Bowl.

It's not just the super bowl obviously. The weekend after the super bowl you got the Oscars.  The next weekend there will be some other awards show the kid wants to watch.  Even if the kid wants to go to bed, the parents are probably watching their favorite prime-time TV show or late local news or late night monologue... with the TV blaring in the living room as the kid is trying to fall asleep.  The point is there are so many social norms in this country that dictate when Americans decide to go to bed and it's not based when the sun sets.  If these nightly social norms don't change (ie. the super bowl is always the same time) then our morning social norms should (ie. school start times). 
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jeffandnicole

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Re: Fixing the US's time zones
« Reply #83 on: November 05, 2019, 02:51:56 PM »

However, I don't think the Super Bowl is of any relevance to this discussion. Saying we should go to permanent DST because of the Super Bowl is like saying the Thruway should be widened for Bills games, except 8 times more ridiculous*. There are many powerful and convincing arguments for making changes to DST, but the first Sunday in February is not one of them. Not even close.
*There are 8 Bills games per year, and only Super Bowl.

It's not just the super bowl obviously. The weekend after the super bowl you got the Oscars.  The next weekend there will be some other awards show the kid wants to watch.  Even if the kid wants to go to bed, the parents are probably watching their favorite prime-time TV show or late local news or late night monologue... with the TV blaring in the living room as the kid is trying to fall asleep.  The point is there are so many social norms in this country that dictate when Americans decide to go to bed and it's not based when the sun sets.  If these nightly social norms don't change (ie. the super bowl is always the same time) then our morning social norms should (ie. school start times). 

Being that social norms went from TV stations signing off to TV stations being on all night, and from early morning news starting earlier and earlier, these social norms you speak of aren't in line with what most people believe.
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US 89

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Re: Fixing the US's time zones
« Reply #84 on: November 05, 2019, 04:14:28 PM »

In American Eastern Time society, people go to bed after they know who won the super bowl.

FTFY.
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kphoger

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Re: Fixing the US's time zones
« Reply #85 on: November 05, 2019, 04:38:06 PM »


It seems to me that DST benefits northern areas more than it benefits southern areas, so maybe aiming for perpendicular-ish time zone boundaries isn't what's needed.  Maybe they should follow more of a diagonal.

Interesting idea. The only Google reference I can find to "diagonal time zones" is this article from the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, dated 1963. Go to page 1953, where MLA Gildas Molgat proposes a new way of looking at time zones; much of the PDF is about the discussion of extending DST.

Quote from: Gildas Molgat, CD
We had originally introduced the motion in the House recommending what we felt was a reasonable compromise on this matter, and I appreciate that it is a question of compromise because you're not going to please everyone whichever way you go at it. It seems to me really that what is required in the long run is a new look at our time zones. I think the time zones were set up many years ago in different circumstances, and also that they do not necessarily apply the further north you go, because the facts are that in the southern regions, let's say in the southern part of the United States, in mid -summer the days are not as long as our own days are, and while a time zone may be applicable there to extend the time zones, as we do on a straight north-south line, means that in effect they are not in keeping with what the sun actually is doing and that they have a different effect at the southern fringe of the time zone than they have at the northern fringe of that time zone. It seems to me what is really required to settle this is to have our time zones actually on a slanted basis, and that this would permit then for a proper relationship. Now this sounds odd, I appreciate, but it is in fact what the sun does. My honourable friend from Thompson can certainly vouch for that because in mid -summer he has an extremely long day up there by comparison even to ourselves, so I would suggest that what is needed in the long run is a review of this right across the country and an analysis of whether we wouldn't be better off to change our time zones completely and have a new basis applicable more in keeping with what the sun is doing. I still prefer the compromise in this particular case that we had suggested originally.

Basically, you're not the first to think of this!

In general, it is nations and states that are far from the equator that use DST, though there are exceptions to that rule.  Note that, for residents in Tucson (no DST), having extra time in the middle of the summer to spend outside in the afternoon isn't exactly as appealing of a thing as it is for residents of Saskatoon (effectively permanent DST).
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Scott5114

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Re: Fixing the US's time zones
« Reply #86 on: November 05, 2019, 04:54:26 PM »

Since this has become a backdoor DST thread, this thread is now observing ST.
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