Minor things that bother you

[vdeane]

100% of my hate towards America is against those who see me and my friends as lesser because of identity, which unfortunately is also the current administration's point of view.

What I've seen on the Internet doesn't just apply to Americans, though it's often the case since I mainly hang out with Americans. Anyways, it's definitely tiring to see "French bad pls upvote" for the 100th time by people you'd think would be above those jokes (i.e. leftists preaching tolerance).

Do you mean transgender identity?  Recent polls are hard to find, but it looks like about 40%–45% of French respondents in one poll last year said they do not accept trans women as women.  Maybe you should hate France too.

Sadly, such sentiment is growing throughout the entire Western world (and elsewhere).  It's just the most visible in the US and UK (and Russia) right now, but other countries aren't that far behind.

That said, I suspect that a lot of what Liliana is getting at is linguistic rather than national or LGBT oriented, given the way things are between English speakers and French speakers in both Québec and the rest of Canada.

[kphoger]

Recent polls are hard to find, but it looks like about 40%–45% of French respondents in one poll last year said they do not accept trans women as women.

Sadly, such sentiment is growing throughout the entire Western world (and elsewhere).

That's a pretty hot take.  In what decade, would you say, was transgenderism more widely accepted in the entire Western world than it is today?

[Molandfreak]

100% of my hate towards America is against those who see me and my friends as lesser because of identity, which unfortunately is also the current administration's point of view.

What I've seen on the Internet doesn't just apply to Americans, though it's often the case since I mainly hang out with Americans. Anyways, it's definitely tiring to see "French bad pls upvote" for the 100th time by people you'd think would be above those jokes (i.e. leftists preaching tolerance).

Do you mean transgender identity?  Recent polls are hard to find, but it looks like about 40%–45% of French respondents in one poll last year said they do not accept trans women as women.  Maybe you should hate France too.

I don't want to put words in her mouth, but I'm pretty sure she's exclusively talking about her Québécoise identity here.

Just because you haven't personally seen something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Molandfreak]

Recent polls are hard to find, but it looks like about 40%–45% of French respondents in one poll last year said they do not accept trans women as women.

Sadly, such sentiment is growing throughout the entire Western world (and elsewhere).

That's a pretty hot take.  In what decade, would you say, was transgenderism more widely accepted in the entire Western world than it is today?

Transgender folks who have been taking HRT for a period of 3 years have been allowed to compete in the Olympics since 2003. Nobody cared about that until very recently.

[kphoger]

In what decade, would you say, was transgenderism more widely accepted in the entire Western world than it is today?

Transgender folks who have been taking HRT for a period of 3 years have been allowed to compete in the Olympics since 2003. Nobody cared about that until very recently.

1.  So...  the 2000s?

2.  I think it would be more accurate to say that nobody even knew about it until recently.  Not having an opinion at all about something, because you've never really thought about it before, isn't the same thing as being accepting of it.

3.  For what it's worth, I've been having the transgender sports conversation since the mid-2000s, when my wife's uncle became her aunt and switched from playing ice hockey in a men's league to playing in a women's league.  People's opinions about a trans woman body-checking a cis woman don't seem all that different today than they did back then, although my conversation pool on the topic is admittedly small.

[Molandfreak]

In what decade, would you say, was transgenderism more widely accepted in the entire Western world than it is today?

Transgender folks who have been taking HRT for a period of 3 years have been allowed to compete in the Olympics since 2003. Nobody cared about that until very recently.

1.  So...  the 2000s?

2.  I think it would be more accurate to say that nobody even knew about it until recently.  Not having an opinion at all about something, because you've never really thought about it before, isn't the same thing as being accepting of it.

3.  For what it's worth, I've been having the transgender sports conversation since the mid-2000s, when my wife's uncle became her aunt and switched from playing ice hockey in a men's league to playing in a women's league.  People's opinions about a trans woman body-checking a cis woman don't seem all that different today than they did back then, although my conversation pool on the topic is admittedly small.

I just don't think it's as simple as answering a couple of questions like "have you been accepted at any point in history more than you are now?"

Obviously there are more spaces and communities who fully embrace transgender identities than there were in the past. However, there are also many more visible organizations and individuals openly harassing trans folks in their personal lives.

[kphoger]

Obviously there are more spaces and communities who fully embrace transgender identities than there were in the past. However, there are also many more visible organizations and individuals openly harassing trans folks in their personal lives.

And that's probably at least largely because, compared to decades past, there are both more people these days who are open about being transgender and also more people who even consider themselves to even be transgender in the first place.

But what |vdeane| claimed was that the sentiment of "not accept[ing] trans women as women" is "growing throughout the entire Western world (and elsewhere)".  If I think back to, say, 25 or 30 years ago, then I could hardly name one person I knew personally who "accepted trans women as women".  It was much more a fringe thing back then, and I don't get the sense that anybody in the mainstream back then thought trans women were actually women.

[CoreySamson]

As for what I've seen, I've personally seen a lot of hate for the French in social media comment sections. Not so sure how representative that is of real life, but it's definitely there (that's also where you'll see hate for Americans, Jews, and Indians).

[kphoger]

As for what I've seen, I've personally seen a lot of hate for the French in social media comment sections. Not so sure how representative that is of real life, but it's definitely there (that's also where you'll see hate for Americans, Jews, and Indians).

So, what exactly are they hating on about them?

[CoreySamson]

As for what I've seen, I've personally seen a lot of hate for the French in social media comment sections. Not so sure how representative that is of real life, but it's definitely there (that's also where you'll see hate for Americans, Jews, and Indians).

So, what exactly are they hating on about them?

Mostly their rudeness or the fact that they are French.

[formulanone]

As for what I've seen, I've personally seen a lot of hate for the French in social media comment sections. Not so sure how representative that is of real life, but it's definitely there (that's also where you'll see hate for Americans, Jews, and Indians).

So, what exactly are they hating on about them?

Mostly their rudeness or the fact that they are French.

"They're Rude!"

Also, does this F*** Your Feelings T-shirt I bought online make me look fat?

[Big John]

American caricature of the French:

[Max Rockatansky]

Meanwhile the American caricature of a Mexican is actually liked in Mexico.  It isn't too difficult to find knock-off Speedy apparel at almost every Mercado.

[LilianaUwU]

100% of my hate towards America is against those who see me and my friends as lesser because of identity, which unfortunately is also the current administration's point of view.

What I've seen on the Internet doesn't just apply to Americans, though it's often the case since I mainly hang out with Americans. Anyways, it's definitely tiring to see "French bad pls upvote" for the 100th time by people you'd think would be above those jokes (i.e. leftists preaching tolerance).

Do you mean transgender identity?  Recent polls are hard to find, but it looks like about 40%–45% of French respondents in one poll last year said they do not accept trans women as women.  Maybe you should hate France too.

I don't want to put words in her mouth, but I'm pretty sure she's exclusively talking about her Québécoise identity here.

Just because you haven't personally seen something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

No, I'm talking about being transgender. People with a lot of power in America hate my guts for it.

[Big John]

And sung about him:

[vdeane]

Recent polls are hard to find, but it looks like about 40%–45% of French respondents in one poll last year said they do not accept trans women as women.

Sadly, such sentiment is growing throughout the entire Western world (and elsewhere).

That's a pretty hot take.  In what decade, would you say, was transgenderism more widely accepted in the entire Western world than it is today?

Well, I was speaking to increasing amounts of transphobia in politics specifically, not necessarily people no longer saying "I love trans people" (which, as you mention, has largely never happened outside of LGBT or very liberal places).  But the early 2010s were a great time to be trans compared to today.  Just comparing a few things to 15 years ago:
-In 2011, there were only three states where a trans person would be unable to update their birth certificate (Ohio, Tennessee, and IIRC Montana).  Today there are nine.
-In 2011, there were no states that did not allow updating driver's licenses.  Today, not only are there five, but just last week Kansas went so far as to revoke the license of any trans person who had updated their gender marker, meaning that those people are unable to legally operate a motor vehicle until they pay for a new licence with the gender marker reverted and wait for it to arrive in the mail.
-In 2011, the only federal agency that didn't allow for updating gender markers was Selective Service.  Now none of them do, even after surgery.  Multiple trans people have had their passports reverted upon renewal due to this policy, and there have even been cases of outright denials (particularly in the case where a person was able to update all their other documentation but the federal government discovered that they're trans anyways).  Also at least one report of a Social Security gender marker reversion, but those are hard to track since they only way to find out what data they have is to ask them - and since federal record retain logs of changes forever, nobody is in a hurry to ask either.
-In 2011, bathroom bans were considered a fringe policy and were not the law anywhere.  In 2016 or so, North Carolina became the first state to actually pass such a law, and at the time it was met by widespread condemnation and boycotts which forced them to back down (and that law was tame compared to the ones today, as it would not have affected anyone with an updated birth certificate).  Today, eight states have such bans in all government buildings and schools, and additional five in schools and some government buildings, and an additional five in schools, for a total of 18.  Additionally, three of those states make it a criminal offense, and 18 states (not necessarily the same 18, although there is a strong overlap) have a legal definition of sex that refuses to acknowledge the existence of trans people.
-In 2011, trans women were almost always begrudgingly tolerated as women if they had surgery, with varying degrees of tolerance/acceptance for those who hadn't had (or don't want) surgery.  Today, it doesn't matter if you got the surgery or not - it's considered irrelevant, at least in the US (although Québec's foray into restrictions still acknowledges it, last I heard, although that might change after the next election).  Someone who started transitioning at that time could reasonably come to the conclusion of "make sure you pass and get the surgery and then you're home free no matter what happens".  Clearly the world hasn't worked out that way!  I imagine that would be quite a bitter pill to swallow for anyone who did come to that (in hindsight very erroneous) conclusion.

And that's just the US!  Canada has been going down a similar road, and the UK was actually ahead of us in that respect prior to 2025.  Countries such as France, Germany, and New Zealand also have increasing numbers of politicians calling for rolling back trans rights.

Quite frankly, invisibility would be better than the current situation.

[Molandfreak]

Meanwhile the American caricature of a Mexican is actually liked in Mexico.  It isn't too difficult to find knock-off Speedy apparel at almost every Mercado.

Speedy is a pretty positive representation even if he is based on a stereotype. I don't think the Mexican people would take very kindly to being portrayed as a serial rapist skunk.

[Max Rockatansky]

Meanwhile the American caricature of a Mexican is actually liked in Mexico.  It isn't too difficult to find knock-off Speedy apparel at almost every Mercado.

Speedy is a pretty positive representation even if he is based on a stereotype. I don't think the Mexican people would take very kindly to being portrayed as a serial rapist skunk.

Isn't it essentially the reverse in Tiny Toons with a female French themed female skunk pursuing the male cat Furrball?  I could swear there is also at least one episode of Looney Toons during which Penelope (the cat) ends up pursuing Pepe.

But yes, I don't recall ever seeing Speedy ever portrayed as anything but positive and heroic.

[LilianaUwU]

Meanwhile the American caricature of a Mexican is actually liked in Mexico.  It isn't too difficult to find knock-off Speedy apparel at almost every Mercado.

Speedy is a pretty positive representation even if he is based on a stereotype. I don't think the Mexican people would take very kindly to being portrayed as a serial rapist skunk.

If the portrayal was accurate, Pépé would be a pretentious fuck from Paris who thinks he's better than the rest. (I can say this, because I've met plenty of French people like this.)

[Max Rockatansky]

The first bit during which Pepe gets painted blue is the one I'm remembering:

[kphoger]

Meanwhile the American caricature of a Mexican is actually liked in Mexico.  It isn't too difficult to find knock-off Speedy apparel at almost every Mercado.

I love Slowpoke Rodríguez, myself.  He reminds me of the common phrase I've heard in Mexico:  Hoy o mañana...

Maybe you should hate France too.

If the portrayal was accurate, Pépé would be a pretentious fuck from Paris who thinks he's better than the rest. (I can say this, because I've met plenty of French people like this.)

Wow, I didn't actually expect you take my advice!  I take it back.  Stop hating the French.

[kphoger]

In 2011, trans women were almost always begrudgingly tolerated as women if they had surgery, with varying degrees of tolerance/acceptance for those who hadn't had (or don't want) surgery.  Today, it doesn't matter if you got the surgery or not - it's considered irrelevant, at least in the US (although Québec's foray into restrictions still acknowledges it, last I heard, although that might change after the next election).  Someone who started transitioning at that time could reasonably come to the conclusion of "make sure you pass and get the surgery and then you're home free no matter what happens".  Clearly the world hasn't worked out that way!  I imagine that would be quite a bitter pill to swallow for anyone who did come to that (in hindsight very erroneous) conclusion.

Obviously, your experience is different than mine.  But I just don't agree with the bolded statement.  Maybe you meant it in a strictly legal sense, but I took you to mean that people in general were more accepting (even if only begrudgingly tolerating) of trans women as women 15 years ago.  That's just not the way I remember things being then.

[hotdogPi]

I remember a thread on this forum from 2012 about the subject, although it only got a few replies. No posters were in opposition, although it was mentioned at the time that it would be more accepted in certain areas like college campuses.

Despite trying a whole bunch of search terms, I can't find the thread.

[Max Rockatansky]

The only trans people I know are members of the road hobby.  All of them are people I gotten to know after 2016 when I joined the forum.  I'm not aware of anyone in my day-to-day life who is trans (I'm not saying that there isn't anyone).  Outside of the road hobby this really isn't a topics I hear much about in general. 

[kphoger]

Despite trying a whole bunch of search terms, I can't find the thread.

The only ones I remember were from quite a bit later than that.  vtk's 'Trans Day Of Visibility' thread is from 2017, for example.  There were discussions of sexuality in the time period you're thinking of, as part of other conversations, but I can't think of any gender-themed thread either.