Minor things that bother you

[JayhawkCO]

I mean, who in here (other than Chris/JayhawkCO probably) have ever had a casual conversation with someone else about Nauru/Naoero? It's a nothing burger. Who cares what it calls itself. Even if it called itself Poopypantsfart I doubt anyone would talk about it after a day or two.

And in this case, it's not a change in pronunciation or anything.

Yes, it is.

Nauru = Now-roo
Naoero = Now-eh-ro

Not if you listen to the locals pronounce "Nauru".

[kphoger]

the locals

A few thousand people, whose native language isn't even English?  Out of the hundreds of millions of people worldwide whose native language is English?  That doesn't define the standard pronunciation of an English word.

[JayhawkCO]

the locals

A few thousand people, whose native language isn't even English?  Out of the hundreds of millions of people worldwide whose native language is English?  That doesn't define the standard pronunciation of an English word.

If you traveled to this country a month ago, and when they stamped your passport, they said "Welcome to Nauru", it wouldn't sound any different than if you went now and they said "Welcome to Naoero". "Nauru" didn't reflect the local pronunciation phonetically as well as "Naoero" does.

[kphoger]

If you traveled to this country a month ago, and when they stamped your passport, they said "Welcome to Nauru", it wouldn't sound any different than if you went now and they said "Welcome to Naoero". "Nauru" didn't reflect the local pronunciation phonetically as well as "Naoero" does.

I don't dispute that.  I'm just saying that Now-roo (or Na-oo-roo) is the standard English pronunciation of Nauru.  So, yes, this does reflect a change in pronunciation.  How the locals pronounce Nauru is not the same question as what the standard English pronunciation is.

[JayhawkCO]

If you traveled to this country a month ago, and when they stamped your passport, they said "Welcome to Nauru", it wouldn't sound any different than if you went now and they said "Welcome to Naoero". "Nauru" didn't reflect the local pronunciation phonetically as well as "Naoero" does.

I don't dispute that.  I'm just saying that Now-roo (or Na-oo-roo) is the standard English pronunciation of Nauru.  So, yes, this does reflect a change in pronunciation.  How the locals pronounce Nauru is not the same question as what the standard English pronunciation is.

By your standards, Kiribati being mispronounced my 99.9% of the population means the country is called kee-ri-bah-tee.

[kphoger]

By your standards, Kiribati being mispronounced my 99.9% of the population means the country is called kee-ri-bah-tee.

Nope.

Cambridge Dictionary:  /ˈkɪr.ɪˌbæs/

Collins Dictionary:  /ˌkɪrəˈbæs/, /ˌkɪrəˈbɑs/, /ˌkɪrəˈbʌs/

[JayhawkCO]

By your standards, Kiribati being mispronounced my 99.9% of the population means the country is called kee-ri-bah-tee.

Nope.

Cambridge Dictionary:  /ˈkɪr.ɪˌbæs/

Collins Dictionary:  /ˌkɪrəˈbæs/, /ˌkɪrəˈbɑs/, /ˌkɪrəˈbʌs/

But what you're standing on is that however an average, English-speaking American pronounces a country's name is how it should be pronounced wrt Nauru, because that's the "standard English pronunciation". My contention is that a very remote country that 99% of Americans have never heard of should rely on how the citizens of the country itself pronounce the name. There is no "common English parlance". The 300 million Americans that have never heard of the country don't get to have a more valid opinion than the Nauruans do, especially if the Nauruans say it the same way when speaking English as they do when speaking their native language.

Those same 99% of Americans that have never heard of Nauru also haven't heard of Kiribati. If presented the word, they're going to say something close to "kee-ri-bah-tee". This isn't how the I-Kiribati call their own country, so those people should get to define the pronunciation, which you seem to accept is "keer-i-bahs".

I don't see a consistency in your argument, nor, for that matter, in the different dictionary phonetic transcriptions you provided given that the Cambridge stresses the first syllable whereas Collins stresses the last.

[kphoger]

But what you're standing on is that however an average, English-speaking American pronounces a country's name is how it should be pronounced wrt Nauru, because that's the "standard English pronunciation".

I'm simply saying that a well-known English language dictionary's pronunciation is a standard English pronunciation.  That doesn't seem like an unreasonable assertion, does it?

It's in the dictionary that way because most people who have heard of it pronounce it that way (due to its standardization through German more than a century ago), and people who haven't heard of it will go to the dictionary as a standard.

Maybe you don't like the standard English pronunciation, but that doesn't mean it isn't a standard.

My contention is that a very remote country that 99% of Americans have never heard of should rely on how the citizens of the country itself pronounce the name.

Maybe so.  But that isn't what I was arguing against.

There is no "common English parlance".

The 300 million Americans that have never heard of the country don't get to have a more valid opinion than the Nauruans do, especially if the Nauruans say it the same way when speaking English as they do when speaking their native language.

English is not Nauruans' native language, though.  So they're simply keeping their native language's pronunciation of their country's name when speaking English.  To me, that's no different than a Mexican pronouncing his country's name the Spanish way when speaking English, or a Frenchman pronouncing is country's name the French way when speaking English.

Those same 99% of Americans that have never heard of Nauru also haven't heard of Kiribati. If presented the word, they're going to say something close to "kee-ri-bah-tee". This isn't how the I-Kiribati call their own country, so those people should get to define the pronunciation, which you seem to accept is "keer-i-bahs".

How ignorant people might instinctively pronounce a word is not what I'm holding up as a standard.  That's why I cited dictionary pronunciations.

I don't see a consistency in your argument, nor, for that matter, in the different dictionary phonetic transcriptions you provided given that the Cambridge stresses the first syllable whereas Collins stresses the last.

Yes, the stress is different between them, and the final vowel sound varies between them.  But they all have the -s sound at the end.  I'd consider both Kee-ri-bass and Kee-ri-boss as standard English pronunciations of Kiribati, and I've heard both pronunciations used.  I've never heard anyone stress the final syllable, though.

[kphoger]

There are so many rabbit holes to go down, and none of us is probably totally consistent.

Kiribati, for example, is named after Englishman Thomas Gilbert.  So maybe we should all pronounce Kiribati as Gill-berts.  Or maybe not.

[JayhawkCO]

But what you're standing on is that however an average, English-speaking American pronounces a country's name is how it should be pronounced wrt Nauru, because that's the "standard English pronunciation".

I'm simply saying that a well-known English language dictionary's pronunciation is a standard English pronunciation.  That doesn't seem like an unreasonable assertion, does it?

I think what this all comes down to is, is a country allowed to change its name? Should Thailand have stuck with Siam? Should Sri Lanka have stuck with Ceylon?

Here's a quote from a government release on the issue:

President David Adeang tabled the bill and explained that while the name 'Nauru' has been recognised internationally since independence, the proposed change seeks to more faithfully honour our nation's heritage, our language, and our identity.

Nauru emerged because Naoero could not be properly pronounced by foreign tongues, and was changed not by our choice, but for convenience.

Again, if you wanted to start going my "Ky" instead of "Kyle", I'd do my best to honor your wishes. I view these things the same way.

[kphoger]

I think what this all comes down to is, is a country allowed to change its name?

Of course.  But I don't consider Nauru to have changed its name to something else—but rather to be insisting that we all spell it differently than we have been.

Should Thailand have stuck with Siam? Should Sri Lanka have stuck with Ceylon?

To me, that's a totally different category of change.  Nauru→Naoero is, to me, the same basic thing as Turkey→Türkiye.  It would be like if Honduras insisted that we start spelling its name Onduras instead.

Again, if you wanted to start going my "Ky" instead of "Kyle", I'd do my best to honor your wishes. I view these things the same way.

I used to have a friend named William, but, ever since he was a teen-ager, everyone called him Wild Bill, and that's how he introduced himself to people.  I had only ever heard him refer to himself as Wild Bill, and only heard anyone else refer to him as Wild Bill.  Then, in his 30s, he decided he wanted people to stop calling him that, and to call him William instead.  Some people just still call him Wild Bill.  And that's to be expected.

I understand wanting something like that, but I also understand other people are going to call me whatever they want, and I think it would be a bit pretentious of me to insist that they stop calling me what they've always called me.

We've called one of our sons Jo-Jo since he was a baby, and a few of our good friends picked it up as well.  Once he got to a certain age, he stopped liking Jo-Jo as a nickname, so Carrie and I no longer call him that.  But a couple of our family friends still do, and I'm not about to insist that they stop.  It's a nickname that took hold, and that's what some people call him, and I expect that he should just have to deal with that if he doesn't like it.

[JayhawkCO]

It's a nickname that took hold, and that's what some people call him, and I expect that he should just have to deal with that if he doesn't like it.

Or he could tell them that he doesn't like it and then they could be kind people and stop.

[Scott5114]

It's a nickname that took hold, and that's what some people call him, and I expect that he should just have to deal with that if he doesn't like it.

Or he could tell them that he doesn't like it and then they could be kind people and stop.

I have a feeling that they won't stop, and then be completely astonished and disappointed that he wants nothing to do with them once he grows up and can make that decision for himself.

[kphoger]

Or he could tell them that he doesn't like it and then they could be kind people and stop.

Yes, he could.  And yes, they could.  But he ought not to insist that they do so.

At any rate, the analogy is imperfect.

As long as it lacks diacritics, I'm generally okay with calling it whatever the locals call it (assuming no English translation a la Ivory Coast).

Back to Kiribati, then...  It used to be called the Gilbert Islands, or 'the Gilberts' for short.  The locals pronounced the word 'Gilberts' as Kir-i-bass, which, when spelled out in the Gilbertese language, was written as Kiribati.  So you might say that the name change from 'Gilberts' to 'Kiribati' is just a translation, or perhaps a transliteration.  Should we have avoided the name change and kept calling it 'The Gilberts', in the same way that we might avoid the name change from Ivory Coast to Côte d'Ivoire?

[JayhawkCO]

Or he could tell them that he doesn't like it and then they could be kind people and stop.

Yes, he could.  And yes, they could.  But he ought not to insist that they do so.

I disagree. He can do what he chooses. You might recommend him not insisting if you know your friends would take it poorly, but I'd argue that any friends of mine that took it poorly when my kid asked them to not be called by a name they didn't like wouldn't remain my friends.

As long as it lacks diacritics, I'm generally okay with calling it whatever the locals call it (assuming no English translation a la Ivory Coast).

Back to Kiribati, then...  It used to be called the Gilbert Islands, or 'the Gilberts' for short.  The locals pronounced the word 'Gilberts' as Kir-i-bass, which, when spelled out in the Gilbertese language, was written as Kiribati.  So you might say that the name change from 'Gilberts' to 'Kiribati' is just a translation, or perhaps a transliteration.  Should we have avoided the name change and kept calling it 'The Gilberts', in the same way that we might avoid the name change from Ivory Coast to Côte d'Ivoire?

I'd argue no. The country of Kiribati consists of the Gilbert Islands, the Phoenix and Line islands and Banaba. So, the two aren't 100% congruent.

[Scott5114]

Yes, he could.  And yes, they could.  But he ought not to insist that they do so.

He ought not to insist that they stop disrespecting him?

[kphoger]

He ought not to insist that they stop disrespecting him?

Insisting that someone stop calling you what they've become accustomed to calling you is itself a bit disrespectful.  And our friends sometimes call him Jo-Jo as a term of endearment, not out of disrespect, and I'm sure that, if he did tell them earnestly that he dislikes the nickname, they'd stop.  But it's pretentious to believe that you should have full control over what everyone else calls you.

Heck, when my mom was in school, there were three students named Susan one year.  So the teacher simply assigned nicknames to two of them:  one Susie, the other Sue.  From that day on, everyone called my mom Sue.  I can't control what other people call me, and trying to insist that I can is presumptuous and, yes, even a little disrespectful.

[kphoger]

He ought not to insist that they stop disrespecting him?

Insisting that someone stop calling you what they've become accustomed to calling you is itself a bit disrespectful.  And our friends sometimes call him Jo-Jo as a term of endearment, not out of disrespect, and I'm sure that, if he did tell them earnestly that he dislikes the nickname, they'd stop.  But it's pretentious to believe that you should have full control over what everyone else calls you.

Heck, when my mom was in school, there were three students named Susan one year.  So the teacher simply assigned nicknames to two of them:  one Susie, the other Sue.  From that day on, everyone called my mom Sue.  I can't control what other people call me, and trying to insist that I can is presumptuous and, yes, even a little disrespectful.

[Scott5114]

He ought not to insist that they stop disrespecting him?

Insisting that someone stop calling you what they've become accustomed to calling you is itself a bit disrespectful.  And our friends sometimes call him Jo-Jo as a term of endearment, not out of disrespect, and I'm sure that, if he did tell them earnestly that he dislikes the nickname, they'd stop.  But it's pretentious to believe that you should have full control over what everyone else calls you.

Heck, when my mom was in school, there were three students named Susan one year.  So the teacher simply assigned nicknames to two of them:  one Susie, the other Sue.  From that day on, everyone called my mom Sue.  I can't control what other people call me, and trying to insist that I can is presumptuous and, yes, even a little disrespectful.

What? No.

When I was in third grade, the teacher assigned some random kid to make name tags for everyone's desks. She wasn't paying attention to what she was doing so mine said "Scoot". A bunch of people started calling me Scoot or Scooter. That's not my name, and the only reason it got attached to me in the first place was because someone didn't care enough about me to get my name right. That sure didn't make me feel valued as a person—it disrespected me—so I didn't want anyone calling me that.

If you somehow think it was more disrespectful for me to protest being called Scoot than it is my actual name, just because I had no means short of violence to  actually force them to stop, your head ain't screwed on right.

(Also why should your friends get to have the final say whether calling him Jojo is endearing or not, and not your son, who's the one being called that? That's fucked up.)

[Rothman]

Insisting that someone stop calling you what they've become accustomed to calling you is itself a bit disrespectful. 

Heck no.

[kphoger]

I mean, NE2 can call me Mr. Phoger...

[JayhawkCO]

I mean, NE2 can call me Mr. Phoger...

And you can tell him to shut the fuck up if you so choose, which would be more than a touch disrespectful. But PMing him and saying it bothers you and you'd prefer he doesn't is the polar opposite of disrespectful.

[kphoger]

Heh.  Now I'm remembering the time that I made the acquaintance of a semi-homeless guy back in the Chicago suburbs.  I knew him from riding public transit and, because transit in the suburbs sometimes has long waits involved, we got to know each other.  Every so often, he'd call me up if he needed something.  Grocery money, that kind of thing.  Anyway, he could hardly ever remember my name correctly, and so he almost always called me Lyle instead.  Before too long, I simply decided that it wasn't worth trying to correct him anymore.  I remember once spending an hour or so with him in his weekly-rental motel room one evening, and he called me Lyle the whole time, and that was totally fine.

[JayhawkCO]

Heh.  Now I'm remembering the time that I made the acquaintance of a semi-homeless guy back in the Chicago suburbs.  I knew him from riding public transit and, because transit in the suburbs sometimes has long waits involved, we got to know each other.  Every so often, he'd call me up if he needed something.  Grocery money, that kind of thing.  Anyway, he could hardly ever remember my name correctly, and so he almost always called me Lyle instead.  Before too long, I simply decided that it wasn't worth trying to correct him anymore.  I remember once spending an hour or so with him in his weekly-rental motel room one evening, and he called me Lyle the whole time, and that was totally fine.

But that was your choice. Had you not liked it, it would have been completely within your rights to correct him.

[Scott5114]

I remember once spending an hour or so with him in his weekly-rental motel room one evening, and he called me Lyle the whole time, and that was totally fine.

Yes, and you're the one making the decision that it's okay for him to call you Lyle. If you're cool with that, there's no issue. But it's unreasonable to assume everyone should always make the same decision as you. (What if you had an evil twin brother named Lyle, so being called that gave you the willies?)

And the same person can feel different ways about being called different things. I hate being called Scoot and will protest that, but people usually mispronounce "Nazelrod" and, like you being called Lyle, it doesn't bother me enough to be worth the effort correcting them. Everyone has different quirks like that and that's okay.