Coronavirus pandemic

[Plutonic Panda]

I was one of the ones that voted yes. If you, I, or anyone else end up on a hospital bed that is our fault. Any healthcare worker at that facility knew what they were getting into when they signed for it. I love and have the utmost respect for our healthcare workers for any asshole that tries to take my comment and spin it somehow.

None of that gives others the right to whine and bitch trying to take freedoms away. If you don't want to get sick then stay inside. I really wonder how many of these folks screaming and crying about others going out are really sitting inside themselves. It's like people just want others to be miserable with them.

[oscar]

But this has never been the case before. Efficacy of social distancing measures are not going to be the primary concern that shoppers have when they choose a place to do business with. Price, convenience, product selection, and brand loyalty are, just as they always are.

Check out this poll that someone did on the OKCTalk forums:


You can argue these people have the freedom to endanger themselves by choosing to patronize a store that refuses to implement social distancing. But that means more possible infections, more potential asymptomatic spreaders, and more people to potentially take up a hospital bed that you might need later on.

Or maybe the people responding to the poll think the one-way aisle arrows are kind of a joke (as they are in my area, even though it's a regional coronavirus hotspot -- nice idea in theory, but not working as well as envisioned), and "checkout line Xs" (unclear what that means, but I assume it's markers six feet apart) are helpful reminders but not as dependable as using your shopping cart to create space or giving the "stink eye" to anyone getting too close.

[hotdogPi]

If you don't want to get sick then stay inside.

And if you work in a grocery store?

[Max Rockatansky]

The one-way stuff at stores is a joke for numerous reasons.  First off, almost no store actually attempts to enforce the one-way aisles which makes sense when you think about it.  How can a store that is probably already hurting over spending on payroll possibly staff people to hunt down rule violators in store aisles...or even the six foot stand of spaces?  IMO the signage itself it usually inconsistent and really poorly placed, sometimes I've found myself walking the wrong way only to realize it after I leave the aisle.  The visual placement in most retailers isn't really oriented for highlighting safety signage and it is showing right now.  I kind of always wished there would be far more standardization in the retail industry in terms of safety signage, it is generally basic across the board and far from universal.  The basic ANSI stuff is usually around but there isn't much out there universal for things like foot traffic control.

Regarding stores and working in them everyday.  Realistically if you're a retail worker and you've been going to work everyday, there is a high probability that you've been exposed numerous times.  Stores are usually an assortment of random shoppers to begin with, so usually when one person gets something like a cold or flu it spreads fast in the work force.

[vdeane]

The economy was not designed for large parts of it to be clobbered by a pandemic being forcibly shut down by government.  We're in for an extended period of economic pain even in the best case scenarios at this point.

FTFY.  The economy would have endured the pandemic.

I take it you still believe in that V-shaped recovery?  Sorry, that's not going to happen.  Just because stay at home orders lift doesn't mean that people will magically return to normal behavior.  And that won't make businesses that already went under solvent again, it won't make up for spending from furloughed or laid off workers, etc.  And honestly, it's even worse than the article below implies, which doesn't mention that some businesses have already failed or that a large portion of the restaurant industry was based on the idea that people eat out on their lunch breaks (which is also one of the reasons for grocery shortages) - which isn't happening now that people are working from home, and likely will at higher levels than before even after a vaccine or treatment that allows for full normalcy is developed and deployed.  Lots of trends that would have happened over the next decade (increased telework, businesses that were on the decline, etc.) are now happening in the span of a few weeks.  With hour interconnected our economy is, that's going to be traumatic, no matter how this goes.

https://thebulwark.com/we-cannot-reopen-america/

The movement to "reopen"  America is a fallacy based on a fantasy.

The fallacy is the notion that lifting stay-at-home orders will result in people going back to their normal routines. This is false. The state-issued stay-at-home orders did not determine most people's desires to stay home–they merely ratified behaviors that the vast majority of people and institutions were already adopting in response to COVID-19.

The fantasy is that we can go back to what the world looked like 12 weeks ago. This is not possible now and will not be possible until we possess a vaccine for the novel coronavirus.

Understand that I am not saying that stay-at-home orders should be indefinite. What I am saying is that whenever the stay-at-home orders are rolled back–whether it is tomorrow or a month from now–it will not result in anything like a "reopening"  of the country.  And the sooner people grasp how completely and fundamentally the world has changed, the faster we'll be able to adapt to this new reality.

We are not looking at a blip that everyone will soon forget and we'll all go back and pretend it never happened.  This is bigger than 9/11 - a LOT bigger.

[bandit957]

One good thing: The number of new cases found today is the lowest it's been since way back on March 29. And that's with significantly more testing.

It baffles me why they keep extending the lockdown orders.

[webny99]

If you don't want to get sick then stay inside.

And if you work in a grocery store?

Or in healthcare, or in manufacturing related to healthcare products?

[J N Winkler]

Or maybe the people responding to the poll think the one-way aisle arrows are kind of a joke (as they are in my area, even though it's a regional coronavirus hotspot -- nice idea in theory, but not working as well as envisioned), and "checkout line Xs" (unclear what that means, but I assume it's markers six feet apart) are helpful reminders but not as dependable as using your shopping cart to create space or giving the "stink eye" to anyone getting too close.

The one-way stuff at stores is a joke for numerous reasons.  First off, almost no store actually attempts to enforce the one-way aisles which makes sense when you think about it.  How can a store that is probably already hurting over spending on payroll possibly staff people to hunt down rule violators in store aisles...or even the six foot stand of spaces?  IMO the signage itself it usually inconsistent and really poorly placed, sometimes I've found myself walking the wrong way only to realize it after I leave the aisle.  The visual placement in most retailers isn't really oriented for highlighting safety signage and it is showing right now.  I kind of always wished there would be far more standardization in the retail industry in terms of safety signage, it is generally basic across the board and far from universal.  The basic ANSI stuff is usually around but there isn't much out there universal for things like foot traffic control.

At the Dillons (Kroger affiliate) near me, there are six-foot markings at the checkouts but the aisles are still two-way.  I would like them to remain so since I find I am better able to keep my distance if I can reverse out when the way forward is blocked by people searching for the specific item they want.



As for reopening the economy in general:  as I think I noted upthread, in my local area there is a considerable lack of unanimity even among the business community.  Everyone would like the hemorrhaging to stop, but we know we don't have the testing we need, and there are many  businesspeople out there who worry about their establishments becoming venues for outbreaks--in fact, we had many voluntary closures or conversions to takeout/delivery only before the county and state stay-at-home orders went into effect.  The baseline expectation is that social distancing will be necessary long after non-essential businesses are allowed to reopen, and many of them cannot operate profitably at customer densities that low.

[webny99]

Rather than try to reply to any specific comment, (been there, done that too many times in this thread...) I'll just note for the record that coronavirus would have certainly caused an economic recession, regardless of what the government did or didn't do.

Keep in mind that a lot of the fears and panic buying and so on began well before the business closures and lockdowns. Not to mention that the hit to the tourism and travel industry alone is enough to cause a recession, and much of the social distancing and reduced person-to-person contact happening now would have happened anyways, just in a less organized (and perhaps even more panic-inducing) fashion. It's really not even up for debate: there's just no way to spin this as an avoidable recession, or one that might not have happened with a different type of government response.

[Max Rockatansky]

Or maybe the people responding to the poll think the one-way aisle arrows are kind of a joke (as they are in my area, even though it's a regional coronavirus hotspot -- nice idea in theory, but not working as well as envisioned), and "checkout line Xs" (unclear what that means, but I assume it's markers six feet apart) are helpful reminders but not as dependable as using your shopping cart to create space or giving the "stink eye" to anyone getting too close.

The one-way stuff at stores is a joke for numerous reasons.  First off, almost no store actually attempts to enforce the one-way aisles which makes sense when you think about it.  How can a store that is probably already hurting over spending on payroll possibly staff people to hunt down rule violators in store aisles...or even the six foot stand of spaces?  IMO the signage itself it usually inconsistent and really poorly placed, sometimes I've found myself walking the wrong way only to realize it after I leave the aisle.  The visual placement in most retailers isn't really oriented for highlighting safety signage and it is showing right now.  I kind of always wished there would be far more standardization in the retail industry in terms of safety signage, it is generally basic across the board and far from universal.  The basic ANSI stuff is usually around but there isn't much out there universal for things like foot traffic control.

At the Dillons (Kroger affiliate) near me, there are six-foot markings at the checkouts but the aisles are still two-way.  I would like them to remain so since I find I am better able to keep my distance if I can reverse out when the way forward is blocked by people searching for the specific item they want.



.

See that's what I've noticed too, people just end up back tracking into each other with all the confusing signage all over.  Most grocery store aisles are wide enough that people could get past each other fairly easily if left to their own whims.  The worst is when the same thing is attempted in a Soft Lines and Hard Lines setting, those aisles tend to be about 6-8 wide.  Then again those aisles usually aren't all that busy so it makes me wonder why bothering at all?  For what it's worth it seems like managing the number of people in the store like Costco does is a far better way to keep people from each than one-way aisles. 

[tradephoric]

There has been a sudden surge in new cases in Orange County over the weekend.  California was the first state to issue a stay-at-home order and those early measures may have been effective at limiting the spread of the virus early on.  But with a sudden spike in new cases, the governor may want to lock things down even tighter (even as residents of California have been under a stay-at-home order longer than anyone else in the country).  The people of California may not be too receptive to the governor wanting to extend the stay-at-home order further or making it even more restrictive.  California may be in a tough spot moving forward. 

[Roadgeekteen]

There has been a sudden surge in new cases in Orange County over the weekend.  California was the first state to issue a stay-at-home order and those early measures may have been effective at limiting the spread of the virus early on.  But with a sudden spike in new cases, the governor may want to lock things down even tighter (even as residents of California have been under a stay-at-home order longer than anyone else in the country).  The people of California may not be too receptive to the governor wanting to extend the stay-at-home order further or making it even more restrictive.  California may be in a tough spot moving forward.

Play stupid games win stupid prizes

[Sctvhound]

The economy was not designed for large parts of it to be clobbered by a pandemic being forcibly shut down by government.  We're in for an extended period of economic pain even in the best case scenarios at this point.

FTFY.  The economy would have endured the pandemic.

I take it you still believe in that V-shaped recovery?  Sorry, that's not going to happen.  Just because stay at home orders lift doesn't mean that people will magically return to normal behavior.  And that won't make businesses that already went under solvent again, it won't make up for spending from furloughed or laid off workers, etc.  And honestly, it's even worse than the article below implies, which doesn't mention that some businesses have already failed or that a large portion of the restaurant industry was based on the idea that people eat out on their lunch breaks (which is also one of the reasons for grocery shortages) - which isn't happening now that people are working from home, and likely will at higher levels than before even after a vaccine or treatment that allows for full normalcy is developed and deployed.  Lots of trends that would have happened over the next decade (increased telework, businesses that were on the decline, etc.) are now happening in the span of a few weeks.  With hour interconnected our economy is, that's going to be traumatic, no matter how this goes.

https://thebulwark.com/we-cannot-reopen-america/

The movement to "reopen"  America is a fallacy based on a fantasy.

The fallacy is the notion that lifting stay-at-home orders will result in people going back to their normal routines. This is false. The state-issued stay-at-home orders did not determine most people's desires to stay home–they merely ratified behaviors that the vast majority of people and institutions were already adopting in response to COVID-19.

The fantasy is that we can go back to what the world looked like 12 weeks ago. This is not possible now and will not be possible until we possess a vaccine for the novel coronavirus.

Understand that I am not saying that stay-at-home orders should be indefinite. What I am saying is that whenever the stay-at-home orders are rolled back–whether it is tomorrow or a month from now–it will not result in anything like a "reopening"  of the country.  And the sooner people grasp how completely and fundamentally the world has changed, the faster we'll be able to adapt to this new reality.

We are not looking at a blip that everyone will soon forget and we'll all go back and pretend it never happened.  This is bigger than 9/11 - a LOT bigger.

Yup. 9/11 shut down pro + college sports, entertainment and travel for a week, destroyed the largest employer and tallest building in New York, and brought us eventually into two wars, with all the security measures we have now.

But people were still going out to eat, even right after. The economy took a hit for a few months, but came back. Outside of New York + DC and security at public places, most people didn't notice major effects.

We were in the busiest time of sports of the entire year. Homestretch of the NBA and NHL seasons, college basketball conference tournaments with 4 games a day eventually leading to the men's and women's NCAAs, the Florida golf swing with the Masters coming, MLB spring training, the start of the NASCAR and MLS seasons, UFC, and the start of college spring sports (including baseball and softball). Coming NFL draft in Las Vegas.

One positive test from Rudy Gobert: all of that, gone. Within 36 hours. All college sports cancelled for the rest of the season. Professional sports significantly delayed. Going on 7 weeks of absolutely nothing. When/if they do come back this year, there most likely won't be any fans or significantly reduced crowds for months. College sports might not come back until the new year.

There will be tens of billions of dollars of revenue lost in the US this year. And that is just the sports industry.

[Roadgeekteen]

The economy was not designed for large parts of it to be clobbered by a pandemic being forcibly shut down by government.  We're in for an extended period of economic pain even in the best case scenarios at this point.

FTFY.  The economy would have endured the pandemic.

I take it you still believe in that V-shaped recovery?  Sorry, that's not going to happen.  Just because stay at home orders lift doesn't mean that people will magically return to normal behavior.  And that won't make businesses that already went under solvent again, it won't make up for spending from furloughed or laid off workers, etc.  And honestly, it's even worse than the article below implies, which doesn't mention that some businesses have already failed or that a large portion of the restaurant industry was based on the idea that people eat out on their lunch breaks (which is also one of the reasons for grocery shortages) - which isn't happening now that people are working from home, and likely will at higher levels than before even after a vaccine or treatment that allows for full normalcy is developed and deployed.  Lots of trends that would have happened over the next decade (increased telework, businesses that were on the decline, etc.) are now happening in the span of a few weeks.  With hour interconnected our economy is, that's going to be traumatic, no matter how this goes.

https://thebulwark.com/we-cannot-reopen-america/

The movement to “reopen” America is a fallacy based on a fantasy.

The fallacy is the notion that lifting stay-at-home orders will result in people going back to their normal routines. This is false. The state-issued stay-at-home orders did not determine most people’s desires to stay home—they merely ratified behaviors that the vast majority of people and institutions were already adopting in response to COVID-19.

The fantasy is that we can go back to what the world looked like 12 weeks ago. This is not possible now and will not be possible until we possess a vaccine for the novel coronavirus.

Understand that I am not saying that stay-at-home orders should be indefinite. What I am saying is that whenever the stay-at-home orders are rolled back—whether it is tomorrow or a month from now—it will not result in anything like a “reopening” of the country.  And the sooner people grasp how completely and fundamentally the world has changed, the faster we’ll be able to adapt to this new reality.

We are not looking at a blip that everyone will soon forget and we'll all go back and pretend it never happened.  This is bigger than 9/11 - a LOT bigger.

Yup. 9/11 shut down pro + college sports, entertainment and travel for a week, destroyed the largest employer and tallest building in New York, and brought us eventually into two wars, with all the security measures we have now.

But people were still going out to eat, even right after. The economy took a hit for a few months, but came back. Outside of New York + DC and security at public places, most people didn’t notice major effects.

We were in the busiest time of sports of the entire year. Homestretch of the NBA and NHL seasons, college basketball conference tournaments with 4 games a day eventually leading to the men’s and women’s NCAAs, the Florida golf swing with the Masters coming, MLB spring training, the start of the NASCAR and MLS seasons, UFC, and the start of college spring sports (including baseball and softball). Coming NFL draft in Las Vegas.

One positive test from Rudy Gobert: all of that, gone. Within 36 hours. All college sports cancelled for the rest of the season. Professional sports significantly delayed. Going on 7 weeks of absolutely nothing. When/if they do come back this year, there most likely won’t be any fans or significantly reduced crowds for months. College sports might not come back until the new year.

There will be tens of billions of dollars of revenue lost in the US this year. And that is just the sports industry.

Just thinking, what if Gobert never test positive? When would sports shut down?

[Max Rockatansky]

There has been a sudden surge in new cases in Orange County over the weekend.  California was the first state to issue a stay-at-home order and those early measures may have been effective at limiting the spread of the virus early on.  But with a sudden spike in new cases, the governor may want to lock things down even tighter (even as residents of California have been under a stay-at-home order longer than anyone else in the country).  The people of California may not be too receptive to the governor wanting to extend the stay-at-home order further or making it even more restrictive.  California may be in a tough spot moving forward.

Half the cases are in Los Angeles County, a good chunk of the remaining percentage is located in the surrounding counties.  So why should the rest of the state be punished because of Los Angeles County?  The six northernmost counties have little cases and have been advocating hard to begin reopening.  Even here in the Central Valley and Sierra Nevada regions our case counts have been low.  That's what I was getting at by Los Angeles County presently dictating how the rest of the state is responding right now.  The problem is Los Angeles Area, not the rest of the state.

At the moment the top tend counties by the 43,658 cases in California are as follows:

1.  Los Angeles - 19,528
2.  Riverside - 3,563
3.  San Diego - 3,043
4.  Santa Clara - 2,084
5.  Orange - 2,074
6.  San Bernardino 1,751
7.  Alameda 1,468
8.  San Francisco 1,408
9.  Sacramento 1,037
10.  San Mateo 1,019

The majority of the early confirmed cases were in the San Francisco Bay Area which led to the early stay-at-home orders back on 3/16/20.  The case spike as of late has been around the Los Angeles Area, the virus has been in decline pretty much north of the Los Angeles County Line.  There are huge geographic divisions in California that should and in my opinion need to be considered in terms of the reopening process.  Why should counties like; Lassen, Trinity, Modoc, Alpine, Sierra, and many others still be subject to the harder restrictions that Southern California clearly needs?  Either way the case load is heavily concentrated in urbanize areas with the largest one being hit by far the hardest. 

Now what bothers me is that a lot of counties aren't reporting case recovery statistics anymore.  In the counties which have the recovery rate at this point is generally in the 50% range.  I'm not saying open everything right back up in Northern California, but start with something aside elective surgeries.

[ErmineNotyours]

Had to deal with one-way aisles at Safeway.  Was following someone and he got to almost the end of the aisle, and stopped.  He chose that time to check his texts.  He didn't seem to be getting shopping advice, he was just checking his texts.  He could have gone past the end of the aisle and ducked back in to the very end if he needed something there.  That would have been more socially acceptable than blocking the aisle.  I won't be going back there soon.

Someone upthread wondered if movie theaters would open again soon.  I found evidence of one indoor theater and several drive-ins showing movies now.  With few new releases, they are resorting to classics like Back To the Future, E. T., Grease and "Officers and a Gentleman."  Either that's a misprint, or it's the gay adult film version of that movie.

[Roadgeekteen]

Had to deal with one-way aisles at Safeway.  Was following someone and he got to almost the end of the aisle, and stopped.  He chose that time to check his texts.  He didn't seem to be getting shopping advice, he was just checking his texts.  He could have gone past the end of the aisle and ducked back in to the very end if he needed something there.  That would have been more socially acceptable than blocking the aisle.  I won't be going back there soon.

Someone upthread wondered if movie theaters would open again soon.  I found evidence of one indoor theater and several drive-ins showing movies now.  With few new releases, they are resorting to classics like Back To the Future, E. T., Grease and "Officers and a Gentleman."  Either that's a misprint, or it's the gay adult film version of that movie.

Will movie theaters be able to turn a profit with socially distanced seats?

[oscar]

Just thinking, what if Gobert never test positive? When would sports shut down?

He isn't the only athlete (or coach) to test positive. His test might've slightly sped up the inevitable sports shutdown.

[ozarkman417]

Had to deal with one-way aisles at Safeway.  Was following someone and he got to almost the end of the aisle, and stopped.  He chose that time to check his texts.  He didn't seem to be getting shopping advice, he was just checking his texts.  He could have gone past the end of the aisle and ducked back in to the very end if he needed something there.  That would have been more socially acceptable than blocking the aisle.  I won't be going back there soon.

Someone upthread wondered if movie theaters would open again soon.  I found evidence of one indoor theater and several drive-ins showing movies now.  With few new releases, they are resorting to classics like Back To the Future, E. T., Grease and "Officers and a Gentleman."  Either that's a misprint, or it's the gay adult film version of that movie.

Will movie theaters be able to turn a profit with socially distanced seats?

If they could, they would have to thoroughly clean out the place between each movie. The time it takes to do this would most likely take away from some of the time the theater forces people to watch previews anyway. Heck, some shows will have plenty of open seats to spare.

[Plutonic Panda]

If you don't want to get sick then stay inside.

And if you work in a grocery store?

Or in healthcare, or in manufacturing related to healthcare products?

I don't understand what is being suggested here. Is the notion behind this to shut down grocery stores or will you just accuse me of a strawman? Hmm

[Scott5114]

The notion is to acknowledge that some people don't want to get sick but don't have the choice to stay inside.

[Plutonic Panda]

The notion is to acknowledge that some people don't want to get sick but don't have the choice to stay inside.

They do have a choice.

[kalvado]

The notion is to acknowledge that some people don't want to get sick but don't have the choice to stay inside.

They do have a choice.

Individually maybe, collectively we need a certain amount of essential services to keep society from collapse. If all warehouse, delivery and retail workers choose to stay at home, most urban population would be starving within days or months (depending on fridge size). If all farmers choose to stay at home - we will not survive next winter. If all healthcare and funeral workers choose to stay at home, you will be sickened by decomposing body of your neighbor.

[Max Rockatansky]

The notion is to acknowledge that some people don't want to get sick but don't have the choice to stay inside.

They do have a choice.

Individually maybe, collectively we need a certain amount of essential services to keep society from collapse. If all warehouse, delivery and retail workers choose to stay at home, most urban population would be starving within days or months (depending on fridge size). If all farmers choose to stay at home - we will not survive next winter. If all healthcare and funeral workers choose to stay at home, you will be sickened by decomposing body of your neighbor.

Me and my wife don't have a choice if want to keep getting paid.  At minimum it's not hard to see "why"  we are required.  Yeah we could choose to stay home at the peril of losing our jobs and income to pay the mortgage, that's a not exactly much of a choice.  There are people in far more dire financial circumstances are in the same boat who probably work entry level jobs.  They have a choice, but the logical one is to keep working. 

[NWI_Irish96]

I think everybody's missing the point here.  Yes, people who work in jobs that have to keep going: health care, public safety, public services, food, and medicine--they have to keep working.  The way we keep those people as safe as possible is for the rest of us to stay at home to the greatest extent possible. 

The number of COVID-19 patients at my wife's hospital is decreasing.  The number dying + the very few who get to leave alive is outnumbering the number of new ones coming in.  Health care workers are going to get very pissed off if restrictions get lifted too fast and they start seeing a new surge in patients.