Coronavirus pandemic

[GaryV]

How much do you want to bet that mask ordinances stay in force even after the pandemic ends?

Why?

The Patriot Act never went away.

OK.  Wearing masks is a law most places.  Furthermore, the Patriot Act happens behind the scenes.  It doesn't impact our lives on a daily basis.  Wearing masks does.  There's a difference.

Where is wearing a mask written into law? Passed by the legislature and signed by the governor?  Or passed by a city commission, town council?

Sure, there's a lot of executive orders - and those expire.  But any laws?

[Max Rockatansky]

How much do you want to bet that mask ordinances stay in force even after the pandemic ends?

Why?

The Patriot Act never went away.

OK.  Wearing masks is a law most places.  Furthermore, the Patriot Act happens behind the scenes.  It doesn't impact our lives on a daily basis.  Wearing masks does.  There's a difference.

Where is wearing a mask written into law? Passed by the legislature and signed by the governor?  Or passed by a city commission, town council?

Sure, there's a lot of executive orders - and those expire.  But any laws?

In my case locally it is an emergency City Ordinance with a set expiration date.  I believe the fine is $1,000 dollars potentially.  The State (California) doesn't have a mask law on the books but there is an emergency order.  The emergency order essentially refers to existing statutes on the books about the Governor's powers to declare an emergency.  I would imagine most states would find something similar digging into statutory definitions.

[tradephoric]

Yes, the main point I was trying to make was that the situation state wide isn't as grim as it as in Los Angeles County.  That even distribution state wide is essentially something that never could happen in reality given how spread out the population is outside the of the big metro areas.  Something that Los Angeles County does share with the Bay Area is an urban population density.  Even having a simple geographic barrier like San Francisco Bay or the Carquinez Strait does seem to have had an effect on containment.  Marin County and Solano County by comparison to their neighbors directly south have far lower overall cases.  Interestingly Contra Costa County has a low case load per 10,000.  In that particular case it might have much to do with the population center being removed from the rest of the Bay Area by way of the Diablo Range. 

None of California has been hit exceptionally hard.  Go to the John Hopkins map and not a single county in California is shaded dark purple (compared to a sea of purple in major metropolitan areas like NYC, Boston, Philadelphia, Detroit, New Orleans, Washington, and Chicago).  Major cities that haven't been hit hard yet (like LA, Dallas, Orlando, Phoenix) haven't necessarily dodged a bullet, but rather are delaying the inevitable.  Stay at home orders are successful if a region is able to contain the virus and prevent it from spreading upon reopening the economy.  If all California has done is delay a big spike in cases i don't view that as a success.

[kphoger]

Still, the death toll is now approaching 100,000 in official counts (and likely well over because of under-testing of the recently dead). That's a huge failure from the leadership up top, who were given plenty of time to prepare but didn't.

Interesting. I've seen reports that the death toll is overcounted because people who have the virus, but didn't actually die of the virus, are being counted.

While that is concerning, I don't think it's as concerning as some people have been making it out to be.  The main reason I say that is that the 'underlying condition' for the majority (literally more than 50%) of cases is either obesity or hypertension.  So, in those cases, let's face it:  it wasn't the 'underlying condition' that killed the patient.  Those conditions may have contributed to the death, but the death wouldn't have happened at that time if not for the virus.

[kphoger]

I'm pretty sure that some people would protest "No Shirt. No Shoes. No Service" policies if they came out today.

"No shirt, no shoes, no service" is a store policy, not a state ordinance.  Despite what the cute signs on the wall at Jimmy John's say, there is no state health code requiring people to wear shirts and shoes (at least in any state I'm aware of).  It was a way of keeping the hippies out.  Not wearing a shirt or shoes in no way affects the sanitation of the store or health of the employees and other customers.

To that end, stores are perfectly able to require their customers to wear masks, no matter what similar local ordinance may or may not say.

[kphoger]

So, today is my first day back in the office.

It feels kind of normal and kind of weird.  On the upside, I remembered to brush my teeth this morning, which has been difficult to remember while I was eating breakfast halfway through my morning.  On the downside, I have to make my own lunch in the morning instead of just waiting for my wife to call me out to the dining room for lunch.  On the upside, I have a decent copy machine at my disposal.  On the downside, I can no longer play CDs through my guitar amplifier while I work.

[tradephoric]

Los Angeles County has 10 million residents and 31,703 confirmed COVID-19 cases.  That's 0.32% of the population.  Considering 292 pitches are thrown in an average MLB game (146 pitches by each team), you could argue that based on the official numbers Los Angeles is 1 pitch into this pandemic (1/292=0.34%).  LA may have a long way to go before they get through this.

[kalvado]

Still, the death toll is now approaching 100,000 in official counts (and likely well over because of under-testing of the recently dead). That's a huge failure from the leadership up top, who were given plenty of time to prepare but didn't.

Interesting. I've seen reports that the death toll is overcounted because people who have the virus, but didn't actually die of the virus, are being counted.

While that is concerning, I don't think it's as concerning as some people have been making it out to be.  The main reason I say that is that the 'underlying condition' for the majority (literally more than 50%) of cases is either obesity or hypertension.  So, in those cases, let's face it:  it wasn't the 'underlying condition' that killed the patient.  Those conditions may have contributed to the death, but the death wouldn't have happened at that time if not for the virus.

Determining "true" cause of death for an infirm person (and there is a lot of nursing home residents and eldery people affected by this virus) may be challenging. Do we have to count someone who would pobably die within next week (say from late-stage cancer) - but got infected and died a few days early  - as a pandemic victim? What about someone who had a month to live?  6 months? 1 year? 10 years? 25 years?

[kalvado]

I'm pretty sure that some people would protest "No Shirt. No Shoes. No Service" policies if they came out today.

"No shirt, no shoes, no service" is a store policy, not a state ordinance.  Despite what the cute signs on the wall at Jimmy John's say, there is no state health code requiring people to wear shirts and shoes (at least in any state I'm aware of).  It was a way of keeping the hippies out.  Not wearing a shirt or shoes in no way affects the sanitation of the store or health of the employees and other customers.

To that end, stores are perfectly able to require their customers to wear masks, no matter what similar local ordinance may or may not say.

Shoes MAY affect sanitation as small objects on the floor can cause injury, and store needs either do a better cleaning or face possible liability AND blood contamination - aka biohazard - cleanup.

*** reminds me of the case when I picked 32 sharp shirt pins from the floor of Macy's fitting room. I was trying on something like jeans or slacks, so keeping shoes on wasn't an option... 

[SEWIGuy]

How much do you want to bet that mask ordinances stay in force even after the pandemic ends?

Why?

The Patriot Act never went away.

OK.  Wearing masks is a law most places.  Furthermore, the Patriot Act happens behind the scenes.  It doesn't impact our lives on a daily basis.  Wearing masks does.  There's a difference.

Where is wearing a mask written into law? Passed by the legislature and signed by the governor?  Or passed by a city commission, town council?

Sure, there's a lot of executive orders - and those expire.  But any laws?

I meant to type "isn't a law most places."

[SEWIGuy]

How much do you want to bet that mask ordinances stay in force even after the pandemic ends?

Why?

The Patriot Act never went away.

OK.  Wearing masks is a law most places.  Furthermore, the Patriot Act happens behind the scenes.  It doesn't impact our lives on a daily basis.  Wearing masks does.  There's a difference.

If you fly on an airplane, the Patriot Act most certainly does impact your life every time you have to take your shoes off to board a plane, every time you're not allowed to take liquid soap or shampoo or mouthwash in a container more than 3 ounces on a plane, or you have to stand in line and empty your pockets and open up your laptop. If you travel by car across the border, just search through some of the posts on this forum to see how American citizens have been grilled upon trying to return home. And beyond that, just google "Edward Snowden" to find out just how intrusive the government is into everyday activities since 9/11.

Still, the death toll is now approaching 100,000 in official counts (and likely well over because of under-testing of the recently dead). That's a huge failure from the leadership up top, who were given plenty of time to prepare but didn't.

Interesting. I've seen reports that the death toll is overcounted because people who have the virus, but didn't actually die of the virus, are being counted.

None of the bolded was authorized by the Patriot Act.  And it can be argued that only the border security was indirectly enhanced by it.

But regardless, none of those are daily occurances for most Americans.  Wearing a mask would be.

[J N Winkler]

Determining "true" cause of death for an infirm person (and there is a lot of nursing home residents and eldery people affected by this virus) may be challenging. Do we have to count someone who would pobably die within next week (say from late-stage cancer) - but got infected and died a few days early  - as a pandemic victim? What about someone who had a month to live?  6 months? 1 year? 10 years? 25 years?

There is an analogy to what is sometimes called the "eggshell skull" doctrine in manslaughter cases.  The basic rule is "the defendant takes the victim as he finds him"--in other words, he or she is found criminally liable even if the victim is unusually frail in such a way that an identical attack would be readily survivable by a person in robust good health.

[kphoger]

Our family went out to eat at Applebee's yesterday for lunch.  It was our first time dining in at a restaurant since March 20.

The last time we went to Applebee's (a different location here in the same metro area), we had a terrible customer service experience.  It was so bad that, when the manager asked how everything had been, we laid it all out, and he didn't even offer us any money back or anything like it.  This experience was completely different.  We were attended by multiple waiters/waitresses, the manager stopped by to check on us partway through the meal, everyone was extremely polite and helpful, etc.  The waitress even walked us through using the tabletop credit card machine (which we already knew how to use), which is more than any waiter has ever done for us before.  Super great service!

[Max Rockatansky]

So, today is my first day back in the office.

It feels kind of normal and kind of weird.  On the upside, I remembered to brush my teeth this morning, which has been difficult to remember while I was eating breakfast halfway through my morning.  On the downside, I have to make my own lunch in the morning instead of just waiting for my wife to call me out to the dining room for lunch.  On the upside, I have a decent copy machine at my disposal.  On the downside, I can no longer play CDs through my guitar amplifier while I work.

I've been telling my people to play music at night here at the office.  So far they have been hesitant to do because it might seem "unprofessional"  if someone hears a stray note or two in the admin area.  When this all started it was briefly discussed working from home but none of us thought it was viable and we needed to be on site.  My opinion hasn't really changed all that much but right now it's slow enough I feel like that I can justify people taking days off and not scheduling someone else.  My wife has been in the office only one day a week in her regular job this past 45 days.  I suspect they will tell her they are coming back at least partially later this week.  Given she is in Behavioral Health I would imagine that they are getting pushed to see people right now in person. 

[vdeane]

How much do you want to bet that mask ordinances stay in force even after the pandemic ends?

Why?

The Patriot Act never went away.

OK.  Wearing masks is a law most places.  Furthermore, the Patriot Act happens behind the scenes.  It doesn't impact our lives on a daily basis.  Wearing masks does.  There's a difference.

If anything, I would expect masks to become much more acceptable - not just Asian extravagance, but something socially accepted and even expected from those with even minor cold.
Hopefully same goes for handwashing.

I suspect that is the real reason many policy makers have been pushing masks as of late.  They're been pretty open about wanting to import this item of Asian culture into the Western world.  Meanwhile, Dr. Fauci basically called BS on all this mask wearing.  Sure, the "experts" are claiming "we now know the virus can spread asymptomatically" to try to debunk it, but let's be realistic: we knew that by the end of January, more than a month before Fauci gave that interview.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/preventing-coronavirus-facemask-60-minutes-2020-03-08/

As such, I would not at all be surprised if mask wearing is here to stay.  Masks might even become the new underwear.  Schools and workplaces were petri dishes even before coronavirus, it's just we didn't care much when it was just the cold and flu.  Given how many politicians keep talking about a "new normal" and whatnot (in Australia, Queensland even went so far as to add quarantine signs to their MUTCD!), I would not be surprised if the plan is to never end all these measures, just reduce them to an economically sustainable level.

I wonder how Uber drivers and others who are forced to wear masks while driving are faring.  I'm pretty sure I couldn't safely drive with a mask on because it constantly rides up and obstructs half to two thirds of my field of vision.

Question:

What does military aircraft flying overhead have to do with the pandemic?  I've seen a couple of posts now about seeing them, and I don't get the connection.

Apparently the military aircrafts flying above are leaving chemtrials with more "corona virus or another human harming ingredient"


iPhone

Chemtrials? What are you, a conspiracy theorist?

Well, they do leave behind a mixture of chemicals, such as water vapor, carbon dioxide, nitrogen dioxide, soot, etc.

Mike

Can we play this jingle when the subject comes up?

[kphoger]

So, today is my first day back in the office.

It feels kind of normal and kind of weird.  On the upside, I remembered to brush my teeth this morning, which has been difficult to remember while I was eating breakfast halfway through my morning.  On the downside, I have to make my own lunch in the morning instead of just waiting for my wife to call me out to the dining room for lunch.  On the upside, I have a decent copy machine at my disposal.  On the downside, I can no longer play CDs through my guitar amplifier while I work.

I've been telling my people to play music at night here at the office.  So far they have been hesitant to do because it might seem "unprofessional"  if someone hears a stray note or two in the admin area.  When this all started it was briefly discussed working from home but none of us thought it was viable and we needed to be on site.  My opinion hasn't really changed all that much but right now it's slow enough I feel like that I can justify people taking days off and not scheduling someone else.  My wife has been in the office only one day a week in her regular job this past 45 days.  I suspect they will tell her they are coming back at least partially later this week.  Given she is in Behavioral Health I would imagine that they are getting pushed to see people right now in person. 

I share an office with one other person, so I can't exactly play music very loudly.  Also, office drama happened a couple of years ago over something similar, so the only music technically allowed is the radio, because no one here in the office decides what comes over the air waves (other than choosing the station, of course).

[Max Rockatansky]

So, today is my first day back in the office.

It feels kind of normal and kind of weird.  On the upside, I remembered to brush my teeth this morning, which has been difficult to remember while I was eating breakfast halfway through my morning.  On the downside, I have to make my own lunch in the morning instead of just waiting for my wife to call me out to the dining room for lunch.  On the upside, I have a decent copy machine at my disposal.  On the downside, I can no longer play CDs through my guitar amplifier while I work.

I've been telling my people to play music at night here at the office.  So far they have been hesitant to do because it might seem "unprofessional"  if someone hears a stray note or two in the admin area.  When this all started it was briefly discussed working from home but none of us thought it was viable and we needed to be on site.  My opinion hasn't really changed all that much but right now it's slow enough I feel like that I can justify people taking days off and not scheduling someone else.  My wife has been in the office only one day a week in her regular job this past 45 days.  I suspect they will tell her they are coming back at least partially later this week.  Given she is in Behavioral Health I would imagine that they are getting pushed to see people right now in person. 

I share an office with one other person, so I can't exactly play music very loudly.  Also, office drama happened a couple of years ago over something similar, so the only music technically allowed is the radio, because no one here in the office decides what comes over the air waves (other than choosing the station, of course).

My people are manning a security tower.  When I did what they do I listed to the radio, podcasts, and even sports events.  The problem with the main tower is that it is close to fussy office staff that gets particular about things like that.  Trouble is that they are all gone past 5 PM and it's an absolute ghost town.  Given the volume of potential people to annoy has gone down I see no reason to sit in silence.  Then again I've recommended headphone and/or earbuds too.  I would have to imagine lots more people will be bothering them for stuff in the months to come, but not any time short term. 

[kalvado]

I suspect that is the real reason many policy makers have been pushing masks as of late.  They're been pretty open about wanting to import this item of Asian culture into the Western world.  Meanwhile, Dr. Fauci basically called BS on all this mask wearing.  Sure, the "experts" are claiming "we now know the virus can spread asymptomatically" to try to debunk it, but let's be realistic: we knew that by the end of January, more than a month before Fauci gave that interview.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/preventing-coronavirus-facemask-60-minutes-2020-03-08/

The only time masks were not advised is when "leave them for professionals" was the tune.  That's when idea of homemade masks should come up, not weeks later.
Mask efficiency as being primarily the way to prevent people from exerting virus, not as a way to get from the environment, has to be clearly understood. But that seems to be too complicated for many people.

[Eth]

As such, I would not at all be surprised if mask wearing is here to stay.  Masks might even become the new underwear.  Schools and workplaces were petri dishes even before coronavirus, it's just we didn't care much when it was just the cold and flu.  Given how many politicians keep talking about a "new normal" and whatnot (in Australia, Queensland even went so far as to add quarantine signs to their MUTCD!), I would not be surprised if the plan is to never end all these measures, just reduce them to an economically sustainable level.

My gut feeling on this: no, once this is all over, we're not going to see most people still wearing masks everywhere. What I do think we might see, though, is people being more likely to do so whenever they have to go out and they already know they're sick, say with a minor affliction like a cold. (Ideally, that would also be the situation right now, but of course the biggest problem is that we don't know who's sick, so we sort of have to assume everyone is until we can get it figured out.)

[kphoger]

My gut feeling on this: no, once this is all over, we're not going to see most people still wearing masks everywhere. What I do think we might see, though, is people being more likely to do so whenever they have to go out and they already know they're sick, say with a minor affliction like a cold. (Ideally, that would also be the situation right now, but of course the biggest problem is that we don't know who's sick, so we sort of have to assume everyone is until we can get it figured out.)

It's not like people know when they're sick otherwise, either.  Influenza is contagious before symptoms develop too.

For example, last time I had the flu, the earliest minor symptoms developed on New Year's Eve and took a turn for the worse late during the party at our house.  I'm sure I was highly contagious during the party, but I didn't realize it when people were arriving and giving me hugs.

[US 89]

Meat section in my local Costco today:

[kalvado]

My gut feeling on this: no, once this is all over, we're not going to see most people still wearing masks everywhere. What I do think we might see, though, is people being more likely to do so whenever they have to go out and they already know they're sick, say with a minor affliction like a cold. (Ideally, that would also be the situation right now, but of course the biggest problem is that we don't know who's sick, so we sort of have to assume everyone is until we can get it figured out.)

It's not like people know when they're sick otherwise, either.  Influenza is contagious before symptoms develop too.

For example, last time I had the flu, the earliest minor symptoms developed on New Year's Eve and took a turn for the worse late during the party at our house.  I'm sure I was highly contagious during the party, but I didn't realize it when people were arriving and giving me hugs.

It is not uncommon to disregard minor cold as a minor thing which doesn't warrant a stay at home and missing work or not going to the store etc. Thats when the mask may help big time.

[hotdogPi]

Meat section in my local Costco today:

Maybe the refrigeration isn't working properly?

[kphoger]

My gut feeling on this: no, once this is all over, we're not going to see most people still wearing masks everywhere. What I do think we might see, though, is people being more likely to do so whenever they have to go out and they already know they're sick, say with a minor affliction like a cold. (Ideally, that would also be the situation right now, but of course the biggest problem is that we don't know who's sick, so we sort of have to assume everyone is until we can get it figured out.)

It's not like people know when they're sick otherwise, either.  Influenza is contagious before symptoms develop too.

For example, last time I had the flu, the earliest minor symptoms developed on New Year's Eve and took a turn for the worse late during the party at our house.  I'm sure I was highly contagious during the party, but I didn't realize it when people were arriving and giving me hugs.

It is not uncommon to disregard minor cold as a minor thing which doesn't warrant a stay at home and missing work or not going to the store etc. Thats when the mask may help big time.

Oh, I get that.  The reason I replied is that Eth seemed to imply that "we don't know who's sick" is a phenomenon unique to COVID-19.

[Max Rockatansky]

Meat section in my local Costco today:

Maybe the refrigeration isn't working properly?

I'm thinking it's probably good I really like eggs and can tolerate egg whites for the time being.  Then again considering I'm marathon training right now losing 10-15 pounds from a meatless diet wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.  What did the Costco Ham supply look like?