Coronavirus pandemic

[vdeane]

Yeah, all of this.  If someone has symptoms, but they're mild enough that they don't realize they're sick, does the "not really asymptomatic" distinction really matter to anyone who isn't an epidemiologist?

It's very key here to understand exactly what "asymptomatic" means - it means absolutely no symptoms. It does not mean symptoms sufficiently mild that you don't really notice or think much about them.

Recall the example here of the woman from China who got a few Germans sick on a business trip. The German patients reported that they didn't notice any symptoms from the Chinese woman. The woman herself stated she didn't start feeling sick until she was on the plane back to China. Buuuut CCTV footage showed her coughing while she was in Germany. In other words, she wasn't actually asymptomatic.

So, if this new conclusion from WHO holds any water... it's potentially dangerous if people treat it as permission to live their lives as normal so long as they think they feel fine. Because no, it is not that. If you wake up one day and find yourself occasionally coughing a little, you can't just go out and about your business like you would have in February. You need to assume you might have covid and stay home until the coughing stops or you get a negative test result back. The fact that people weren't staying home unless they felt seriously sick (or in many cases, were not being allowed by their employers to stay home unless they felt seriously sick) is how the initial wave of infections got out of control, and that will happen again if we don't isolate the mild cases along with the severe ones.

Yeah, the would be another case of a distinction that mostly matters to epidemiologists.  To a layman, "asymptomatic" and "I don't feel sick" are one and same, and are going to be treated as such.  This is especially important because one can't know if they're going to get sick later when making day to day decisions.  And what about people who aren't very good at telling when they're sick?  Even when I had the flu, I never noticed - it was noticed by others, and that's how I found out I was sick.

[LM117]

Well...

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asymptomatic-coronavirus-patients-arent-spreading-new-infections-who-says.html

So we just locked ourselves at home and wore masks to Kroger for 3 months for nothing?

"Lol. Just kidding."

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/amid-confusion-who-clarifies-covid-19-can-be-spread-without-n1228426

[bandit957]

Well...

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asymptomatic-coronavirus-patients-arent-spreading-new-infections-who-says.html

So we just locked ourselves at home and wore masks to Kroger for 3 months for nothing?

"Lol. Just kidding."

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/amid-confusion-who-clarifies-covid-19-can-be-spread-without-n1228426

They certainly didn't walk it back. Today they basically just reinforced it.

[kphoger]

Well...

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asymptomatic-coronavirus-patients-arent-spreading-new-infections-who-says.html

So we just locked ourselves at home and wore masks to Kroger for 3 months for nothing?

"Lol. Just kidding."

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/amid-confusion-who-clarifies-covid-19-can-be-spread-without-n1228426

One of the most important statements from that article is this one, in my opinion:

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention further clarified in a statement Tuesday, explaining there are two groups of people with the virus who may be contagious even though they aren't showing symptoms, such as fever, cough or shortness of breath. Some are asymptomatic and never develop symptoms. Others are presymptomatic, meaning they go on to develop symptoms.

It's largely impossible for anyone to know which group they're in. ..."

Unless I'm mistaken, this means that–while transmission by asymptomatic carriers may indeed be quite rare–that doesn't necessarily mean transmission by presymptomatic carriers is equally rare.

[hotdogPi]

One of the most important statements from that article is this one, in my opinion:

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention further clarified in a statement Tuesday, explaining there are two groups of people with the virus who may be contagious even though they aren't showing symptoms, such as fever, cough or shortness of breath. Some are asymptomatic and never develop symptoms. Others are presymptomatic, meaning they go on to develop symptoms.

It's largely impossible for anyone to know which group they're in. ..."

Unless I'm mistaken, this means that–while transmission by asymptomatic carriers may indeed be quite rare–that doesn't necessarily mean transmission by presymptomatic carriers is equally rare.

That's my understanding, too.

[jemacedo9]

Taken with the idea that the more symptomatic you are, the more likely you are to spread the virus, and the more of it you're spreading:

Someone who is asymptomatic never realizes they have it, and has possibly spread it, but in a low enough quantity that it's probably a low (not zero) concern.  Context is key here...is that person an essential worker, in enclosed spaces, etc.
Someone who is presymptomatic has been spreading it in increasing quantity until they realize it and are tested, generally a handful of days after they caught it. This is where contact tracing comes in.

On the other side, you could be in a room with someone and not know if they are not affected, if they are affected but asymptomatic, or affected but presymptomatic (and how far along).

Asking people to wear masks is in the hopes that someone who is presymptomatic reduces the amount they are spreading outwardly.  And not perfectly. 

[hbelkins]

Adding to the asymptomatic transmission deal, there have also been reports that the virus doesn't live on external surfaces and isn't spread from them as easily as once believed.

I've been symptomatic for it for months before it became a thing. Coughing due to drainage in my throat, sneezing due to allergens, body aches and pains due to age and weight and various "itis" visitations, and occasional diarrhea due to stress or something I've eaten disagreeing with me. There's been one confirmed case in my county; a child who was tested prior to an unrelated medical procedure. That child is now reported as having recovered and the parents never tested positive. My county was one of the last three in Kentucky to report a case.

[Scott5114]

Adding to the asymptomatic transmission deal, there have also been reports that the virus doesn't live on external surfaces and isn't spread from them as easily as once believed.

The nice thing is that everyone is hyper-fixated on sanitation now. We actually get to keep disinfectant and glass cleaner at our work stations now, whereas before it wasn't allowed because they were "extraneous". Stuff is getting disinfected way more frequently. I'd hope people are washing their hands more.

An interesting study (which I don't think is feasible to actually conduct, sadly) would be whether cold and flu cases took a hit in March-May of 2020 due to increased sanitation for COVID-19 killing cold and flu viruses as a byproduct.

I've been symptomatic for it for months before it became a thing. Coughing due to drainage in my throat, sneezing due to allergens, body aches and pains due to age and weight and various "itis" visitations, and occasional diarrhea due to stress or something I've eaten disagreeing with me. There's been one confirmed case in my county; a child who was tested prior to an unrelated medical procedure. That child is now reported as having recovered and the parents never tested positive. My county was one of the last three in Kentucky to report a case.

Unless you have an antibody test showing that you did have it, that means very little.

[kphoger]

I've been symptomatic for it for months before it became a thing. Coughing due to drainage in my throat, sneezing due to allergens, body aches and pains due to age and weight and various "itis" visitations, and occasional diarrhea due to stress or something I've eaten disagreeing with me. There's been one confirmed case in my county; a child who was tested prior to an unrelated medical procedure. That child is now reported as having recovered and the parents never tested positive. My county was one of the last three in Kentucky to report a case.

Unless you have an antibody test showing that you did have it, that means very little.

Huh.  I thought that was his point:  symptoms don't mean much.

Maybe I read it wrong.

[oscar]

I've been symptomatic for it for months before it became a thing. Coughing due to drainage in my throat, sneezing due to allergens, body aches and pains due to age and weight and various "itis" visitations, and occasional diarrhea due to stress or something I've eaten disagreeing with me.

That's the problem with making too much of some specific symptoms associated with coronavirus. Many Covid-19 symptoms are also symptoms of other ailments, including minor ones. In my case, I occasionally cough, and sneeze due to allergens ... just like I've been doing for many years before Covid-19 came along, even when I wasn't ill. And I've never this year experienced the more serious symptoms such as sustained shortness of breath or fever (none of my twice-daily temperature checks since mid-March have come in above 98.6F).

Out of an abundance of caution (and also as now required in Virginia), I wear a facemask when I'm indoors, in close proximity to other people, to provide some protection for those other people as well as myself.

[nexus73]

One question; Is it safe to go in and out of New Rochelle, New York yet?

Was it safe to be there in the first place?

Nope.  It has never been "safe" to be anywhere.  Risk is inherent in the world.

"Until it's safe" means "Never"

And yet somehow we live in the age of “safety.”  It’s hard not to notice that almost everyone throws that term around though it was a birth right. 

"Is it safe?"  That's a line from the movie "Marathon Man".  Dustin Hoffman's character had no idea what the Nazis were talking about.  So much for safety...LOL!

Rick

[Scott5114]

I've been symptomatic for it for months before it became a thing. Coughing due to drainage in my throat, sneezing due to allergens, body aches and pains due to age and weight and various "itis" visitations, and occasional diarrhea due to stress or something I've eaten disagreeing with me. There's been one confirmed case in my county; a child who was tested prior to an unrelated medical procedure. That child is now reported as having recovered and the parents never tested positive. My county was one of the last three in Kentucky to report a case.

Unless you have an antibody test showing that you did have it, that means very little.

Huh.  I thought that was his point:  symptoms don't mean much.

Maybe I read it wrong.

I took it as a statement of "I already had something that sort of was like covid back in December/January so therefore I am invincible", which is a depressingly common argument around here. Though that may be due to my hearing that from, like, everyone I've talked to over the last few weeks, so I may have jumped to that conclusion.

Anyway, the only way to know that you're truly invincible is if you hear music playing around you wherever you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Poge3wBxZ00

[hotdogPi]

I've been symptomatic for it for months before it became a thing. Coughing due to drainage in my throat, sneezing due to allergens, body aches and pains due to age and weight and various "itis" visitations, and occasional diarrhea due to stress or something I've eaten disagreeing with me. There's been one confirmed case in my county; a child who was tested prior to an unrelated medical procedure. That child is now reported as having recovered and the parents never tested positive. My county was one of the last three in Kentucky to report a case.

Unless you have an antibody test showing that you did have it, that means very little.

Huh.  I thought that was his point:  symptoms don't mean much.

Maybe I read it wrong.

I took it as a statement of "I already had something that sort of was like covid back in December/January so therefore I am invincible", which is a depressingly common argument around here. Though that may be due to my hearing that from, like, everyone I've talked to over the last few weeks, so I may have jumped to that conclusion.

I saw it the way kphoger did.

Anyway, the only way to know that you're truly invincible is if you hear music playing around you wherever you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Poge3wBxZ00

What if you fall into a bottomless pit?

[Scott5114]

Anyway, the only way to know that you're truly invincible is if you hear music playing around you wherever you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Poge3wBxZ00

What if you fall into a bottomless pit?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xs0h2YOE8o

I don't think COVID-19 antibodies are effective against bottomless pits either.

[Max Rockatansky]

Falling into pits and being crushed doesn't work with the Chaos Emeralds either...so probably a no go for COVID also.

[webny99]

I'd hope people are washing their hands more.

Sidebar: Here's one person that actually isn't washing their hands more. I tended to wash them almost to the point of being obsessive even before COVID-19 hit, so I didn't see a need to start washing them more often when my typical frequency suddenly became normal for everyone else.

[Max Rockatansky]

I'd hope people are washing their hands more.

Sidebar: Here's one person that actually isn't washing their hands more. I tended to wash them almost to the point of being obsessive even before COVID-19 hit, so I didn't see a need to start washing them more often when my typical frequency suddenly became normal for everyone else.

I backed off constant hand washing when my hands started to crack and bleed from getting dried out.  I went back to the normal routine of washing before I eat, touch something dirty, or used the bathroom.  Most of my focus has been on not biting my nails or rubbing my face/eyes. 

[D-Dey65]

One question; Is it safe to go in and out of New Rochelle, New York yet?

Was it safe to be there in the first place?

I had no problem going there on my Wiki-Photography crusades, but I haven't had one there since 2018. At the end of November 2019, I rode the Metro-North New Haven Line through the place on my way to Danbury Railway Museum, but that was it.

[MikeTheActuary]

I have been taking a perverse pride in how I have not set foot inside a building other than my house since 16 March.

Sadly, the streak may end Thursday -- depends on whether I can get set up to just schedule UPS/Fed Ex to drop by and pick up a box.   But it's been an interesting run while it's lasted.

I also think I've reached the point where I've spent more consecutive nights at home than I have in at least 35 (possibly 40) years.   Assuming no resurgence in infection rates, no zombies, and protests having settled down, that streak will end in just under 3 weeks.

[Max Rockatansky]

Yosemite is to open by way of a reservation system on the 11th.  I'm looking at booking my seven day pass for the 18th.  My gym is looking to reopen on the 12th but still is pursuing clearance from the county.  If it does reopen on the 12th I'll be there first thing in the morning. 

[kalvado]

I'd hope people are washing their hands more.

Sidebar: Here's one person that actually isn't washing their hands more. I tended to wash them almost to the point of being obsessive even before COVID-19 hit, so I didn't see a need to start washing them more often when my typical frequency suddenly became normal for everyone else.

I backed off constant hand washing when my hands started to crack and bleed from getting dried out.  I went back to the normal routine of washing before I eat, touch something dirty, or used the bathroom.  Most of my focus has been on not biting my nails or rubbing my face/eyes.

after coming home from work may be another good time.
As a side note, though, I do observe a lot more soap being used after restroom business. We had soap dispensers at work  running dry in the last days before lockdown

[Max Rockatansky]

I'd hope people are washing their hands more.

Sidebar: Here's one person that actually isn't washing their hands more. I tended to wash them almost to the point of being obsessive even before COVID-19 hit, so I didn't see a need to start washing them more often when my typical frequency suddenly became normal for everyone else.

I backed off constant hand washing when my hands started to crack and bleed from getting dried out.  I went back to the normal routine of washing before I eat, touch something dirty, or used the bathroom.  Most of my focus has been on not biting my nails or rubbing my face/eyes.

after coming home from work may be another good time.
As a side note, though, I do observe a lot more soap being used after restroom business. We had soap dispensers at work  running dry in the last days before lockdown

Usually I eat shortly after getting home, so that part has always been routine.  I'll have to remember to wash my hands after leaving the gym though since anti-viral wipes essentially are still unobtainable.  At work the cleaning supplies have been under lock and keep.  They certainly are used up faster but having a custodian probably deterred theft and hoarding. 

[Bruce]

The fact that washing hands after using the bathroom and when returning to home from the outside isn't common is terrifying. Too many gross people out there.

I've always carried around lotion-infused hand sanitizer for when I'm out and about, but apparently this wasn't common either.

[kalvado]

The fact that washing hands after using the bathroom and when returning to home from the outside isn't common is terrifying. Too many gross people out there.

I've always carried around lotion-infused hand sanitizer for when I'm out and about, but apparently this wasn't common either.

Even more interesting is the fact that just a few months ago people in this very thread were saying that epidemic would not spread in US since we have so much better hygiene than China..

[Max Rockatansky]

The fact that washing hands after using the bathroom and when returning to home from the outside isn't common is terrifying. Too many gross people out there.

I've always carried around lotion-infused hand sanitizer for when I'm out and about, but apparently this wasn't common either.

Even more interesting is the fact that just a few months ago people in this very thread were saying that epidemic would not spread in US since we have so much better hygiene than China..

Most people aren't as hygienic as they think they are though.  I've seen things like the five second rule or applied or sharing a drink and/or food way too many times over the year by people who claim to be "clean"  for that to be anywhere near a truism.