Coronavirus pandemic

[Scott5114]

How could we possibly afford Bob the luxury of making his own choice on whether to wear the mask or not? And what benefit does that give us as a society? "Mildred ended up dead because of Bob's choice, but her death is worth it because it means Bob got to make his own decision?"

Your typed the answer.  The benefit to society is that Bob gets to make his own choice.  That's called liberty, and I believe it's a fundamentally noble thing for a nation to afford its citizens.

One lesson from the pandemic: We do need a "nanny state"

One other lesson from the pandemic:  Nobody values freedom in America anymore.  It saddens me to hear a grown American wishing the government would dictate how he lives his life.

Does Mildred not get the freedom to live? Why should Bob have the freedom to choose actions that lead to Mildred's life ending without Mildred's input? Should Mildred not then have the freedom to mow Bob down with an AR-15, in self defense, because he isn't wearing a mask and thus presents a threat to her?

Jefferson was a pretty smart guy and wrote the phrase "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness" in the order that he did for a reason. You can't have any of them without the values that precede them. Right to life is the first thing listed.

[hbelkins]

2) We can say "oh it's just a meat packing plant, that doesn't affect everybody," but people at meat packing plants come from and go back home to the broader community. Whoever brought it into the packing plant got it from somewhere, and now a whole bunch of people are sick because somebody (probably) didn't take necessary precautions.

It's amazing how many people don't get this - they just act as if the virus appears out of thin air in the plant.  How hard is it to understand that precautions you take are not only for yourself, but everyone else, even people you've never met, by reducing the chance you'll be a link in the transmission chain?

Shouldn't people who work in food processing facilities (like meatpacking plants/slaughterhouses) already be wearing masks for food safety reasons?

[kphoger]

I would then ask why the county wouldn't take precautions when inter-county interaction is still physically possible? There's no way to guarantee virus containment without a physical containment of the people.

Because county governments don't tend to impose restrictions on their citizens when there is no evidence of imminent threat to those citizens.  And because they're not in the business of guaranteeing anything.  It's also not standard practice for Joe Citizen to "guarantee" any sort of perceived safety;  everyone makes judgement calls all the time about all sorts of things.  People shouldn't be expected to feel the need to do something to prevent what they consider to have a near-zero chance of happening.  And they certainly shouldn't be labeled as uncaring or irresponsible for such.

Does Mildred not get the freedom to live? Why should Bob have the freedom to choose actions that lead to Mildred's life ending without Mildred's input? Should Mildred not then have the freedom to mow Bob down with an AR-15, in self defense, because he isn't wearing a mask and thus presents a threat to her?

Jefferson was a pretty smart guy and wrote the phrase "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness" in the order that he did for a reason. You can't have any of them without the values that precede them. Right to life is the first thing listed.

Mildred does have the right to live.  But Mildred doesn't have the right to live a life completely protected from any threat of danger.  Neither do you, and neither do I.  And no, Mildred doesn't have the freedom to murder Bob.  What kind of twisted mind equates not wearing a mask to killing someone with an AR-15?

Every time you go for a drive, you're surrounded by people who have the potential to inadvertently kill you with their car.  But that doesn't mean your "right to live" should prevent all those people from using the road at the same time as you, even though nobody knows upon stepping into their car if they'll cause an accident that day.

[kphoger]

As this all wears on I don't find myself as compelled to get worked up over what is in the news or what others might/might not be doing.  I've started to tune out all the back and forth as just background noise.  Not even news stories these days are really offering anything enlightening about the Coronavirus anymore.  It's been a couple weeks in fact since I've even looked at local case statistics.  I guess that I don't really feel there is a lot of value in debates anymore or trying to convince people to see things a certain way.

I'm getting to that point.  A few days ago, I made the determination to avoid consuming any more political talking heads–whether on YouTube or in the news–because I get worked up and I don't like the negativity that's building up inside me.  I think my perspective on life is getting out of whack because of it.  I considered that my next step might be to stop reading any news articles at all.  One of the guys at work here stopped watching the news a couple of months ago because he got sick of it all too.  I've said for years that I don't like getting into politics, because I get worked up and I don't like to get worked up.  And here I am.

Perhaps what I also need to do is stop reading this thread.

[kalvado]

As this all wears on I don't find myself as compelled to get worked up over what is in the news or what others might/might not be doing.  I've started to tune out all the back and forth as just background noise.  Not even news stories these days are really offering anything enlightening about the Coronavirus anymore.  It's been a couple weeks in fact since I've even looked at local case statistics.  I guess that I don't really feel there is a lot of value in debates anymore or trying to convince people to see things a certain way.

I'm getting to that point.  A few days ago, I made the determination to avoid consuming any more political talking heads–whether on YouTube or in the news–because I get worked up and I don't like the negativity that's building up inside me.  I think my perspective on life is getting out of whack because of it.  I considered that my next step might be to stop reading any news articles at all.  One of the guys at work here stopped watching the news a couple of months ago because he got sick of it all too.  I've said for years that I don't like getting into politics, because I get worked up and I don't like to get worked up.  And here I am.

Perhaps what I also need to do is stop reading this thread.

I gave up on news a few years back.
However... a friendly advice.. do not try to politicize things - panties, holster with the gun, and a mask is the bare minimum a real man should wear outside of bed.

[webny99]

A few days ago, I made the determination to avoid consuming any more political talking heads–whether on YouTube or in the news–because I get worked up and I don't like the negativity that's building up inside me.  I think my perspective on life is getting out of whack because of it.  I considered that my next step might be to stop reading any news articles at all.  One of the guys at work here stopped watching the news a couple of months ago because he got sick of it all too.  I've said for years that I don't like getting into politics, because I get worked up and I don't like to get worked up.  And here I am.

Perhaps what I also need to do is stop reading this thread.

Too much news can be a bad thing especially in this current environment, but it's still important to have at least some degree of current events awareness. I stay away from the major news outlets, as I've found I can get all the news I need from this data-based journalism site, which I've plugged more than once on this forum. It's as close to bi-partisan/non-politically charged as you can get, plus has great election coverage and the best podcasts around in both sports and politics IMO.

At 60+ new posts per day, this thread is certainly a lot to keep up with. Taking a few days off from it doesn't sound like a horrible idea.

However... a friendly advice.. do not try to politicize things - panties, holster with the gun, and a mask is the bare minimum a real man should wear outside of bed.

LOL!

[corco]

2) We can say "oh it's just a meat packing plant, that doesn't affect everybody," but people at meat packing plants come from and go back home to the broader community. Whoever brought it into the packing plant got it from somewhere, and now a whole bunch of people are sick because somebody (probably) didn't take necessary precautions.

It's amazing how many people don't get this - they just act as if the virus appears out of thin air in the plant.  How hard is it to understand that precautions you take are not only for yourself, but everyone else, even people you've never met, by reducing the chance you'll be a link in the transmission chain?

Shouldn't people who work in food processing facilities (like meatpacking plants/slaughterhouses) already be wearing masks for food safety reasons?

Only while they're both at work and actively packing meat? That doesn't include when they're not at work and out in the community or hanging out in the lunchroom or whatever.

[LM117]

The governor of NC has announced that the state will remain in Phase 2 for three more weeks. Masks will also be mandatory in public places. A copy of the executive order can be found near the bottom of the press release.

https://governor.nc.gov/news/north-carolina-pauses-safer-home-phase-2-adds-statewide-requirement-%EF%BB%BF-face-coverings

[hotdogPi]

I've found I can get all the news I need from this data-based journalism site

Same here. My main issue with it is that they do almost no articles on Saturday or Sunday.

[Roadgeekteen]

The EU is considering banning American travelers.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/news/2020/06/23/eu-ban-american-travelers-might-prohibited-visiting-europe/3244710001/

Not surprising, considering that the EU has done a much better job containing the virus.

[J N Winkler]

I'm getting to that point.  A few days ago, I made the determination to avoid consuming any more political talking heads–whether on YouTube or in the news–because I get worked up and I don't like the negativity that's building up inside me.  I think my perspective on life is getting out of whack because of it.  I considered that my next step might be to stop reading any news articles at all.  One of the guys at work here stopped watching the news a couple of months ago because he got sick of it all too.  I've said for years that I don't like getting into politics, because I get worked up and I don't like to get worked up.  And here I am.

Looking back over the last few pages of discussion, what I see is that people are getting worked up over questions of what mask wearing signifies in principle (the kind of docile acceptance of official diktat that, in the past, has been associated with acceptance of segregation, death camps, etc. versus accepting personal responsibility for promoting collective well-being), while no-one has admitted to wearing or refusing to wear masks in a manner contrary to what is officially required in his or her respective area.

Questions of principle aside, the necessity or otherwise of wearing masks is fundamentally an operational question for health professionals, who have been developing this advice on the basis of training and judgment that most members of the public do not have, and often also on the basis of data that is not publicly available.  This is the natural result of us, as a society, pursuing increases in productivity through economic specialization.  Does this enhance our vulnerability to bad faith on the part of experts?  Perhaps it does, but when the system works, it promotes economic efficiency.

As for the news, here is what I do:

*  I free myself from any sense of obligation to act on it unless I believe that my own actions can move the needle.

*  I get my information mainly from newspapers of record, since it comes to me after a layer of vetting by people who are skeptical (if not outright oppositional) by professional disposition if not temperamental inclination, and thus are unwilling to accept totally at face value the stories offered by newsmakers.  Social media has more immediacy, but is more vulnerable to abuse as a propaganda channel.  I do not get my news from TV, because it is engineered to disturb, explicitly for ratings.  Traditional media also has a clear distinction between news and editorial, which is helpful for separating facts from spin.

*  I read book-length nonfiction partly to try to develop a background understanding of how political institutions work.

*  I have been limiting my exposure to Medium.com pieces, which have become a secondary plague in the wake of covid-19.  They are written by (admittedly semi-informed) nonspecialists who don't have the key kernels of subject matter expertise that are necessary to avoid elaborating possibly dangerous misconceptions.  Often they are provocative in tone and posted with the poorly concealed intention to boost the authors' personal profiles at the expense of the information commons.

*  I tend to view online discussion venues (including Web forums such as this) as a vehicle for thinking through issues, not for organizing activism.  For the latter, there is no substitute for face-to-face contact to establish an actual shoe-leather commitment to advance action on an issue.  I have seen people twist themselves into pretzels because they have allowed themselves to believe that failing to speak out against injustice on an online forum amounts to acting on privilege that is not justly theirs.  I think this is both unfortunate and wrong.  If you see injustice and it prompts you to feel guilt about your own privilege, then yes, taking efficacious action (whatever that is) is an appropriate response, but Arguing With People On The Internet is not it.

[Max Rockatansky]

More or less that's the point I was trying to make about most COVID articles not even being insightful anymore.  This whole issue has moved more towards the political than a public safety issue.  Really it shouldn't be that way but tends to be how things usually go in the U.S. 

[bandit957]

Shouldn't people who work in food processing facilities (like meatpacking plants/slaughterhouses) already be wearing masks for food safety reasons?

They should. I thought they wore hazmat suits even before the pandemic.

[bandit957]

One thing I'm sick of is the phrase "in public" with regard to mask orders. For instance, news reports always say the mask order in Kentucky applies "in public." Nope. It applies at businesses, doctor's offices, etc. That's not the same as "in public."

People disobey it, but I'm pretty sure it's still on the books.

[Max Rockatansky]

Bring on the "killer"  dust storms:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-stricken-u-faces-another-144854519.html

Speaking from experience with Valley Fever I can say that it definitely isn't a bag of fun.  Maybe there will be a swarm of Murder Hornets in said dust storm?

[webny99]

I've found I can get all the news I need from this data-based journalism site

Same here. My main issue with it is that they do almost no articles on Saturday or Sunday.

That's true, it's pretty rare to get new content on the weekends except in the height of election season.
I don't personally have a problem with that, though, since I often wouldn't be catching up until Monday anyways.

[wxfree]

Texas is in bad enough shape that the governor is discussing the possibility of re-imposing restrictions.  This time, it would be based on location, like it was before the statewide order was issued.  I do think that's best, as long as it doesn't result in people fleeing the restrictions in the more heavily affected areas and carrying the virus to rural areas where it isn't a problem.

I think that the orders should be issued by states, not local governments, because most cities and counties don't have the expertise to come up with the best policies, and the efforts need to be coordinated.  That doesn't mean that there should be one rule for the whole state.  CDC issues guidance, state governments have the resources to interpret and apply it, and we can have an effective set of rules that is as limited as it can be while still working.

Look at the new IHME projection.  It shows more than 20,000 fewer deaths nationwide than the last run.  Then look at the ones for Florida and Texas.  Dubya tee eff!  What happened?  Most of the other states are doing better, but these numbers explode to a level near New Jersey.  Also, it shows the projected effect of wearing masks, if adopted by the whole population.  Places with an explosion of deaths ahead (where they can still be changed), such as Arizona, Texas, and Florida, show mask-wearing as causing a huge reduction, by more than half in Texas and Florida, and saving close to 20,000 lives in those three states.

[LM117]

The governor of NC has announced that the state will remain in Phase 2 for three more weeks. Masks will also be mandatory in public places. A copy of the executive order can be found near the bottom of the press release.

https://governor.nc.gov/news/north-carolina-pauses-safer-home-phase-2-adds-statewide-requirement-%EF%BB%BF-face-coverings

The sheriffs of Sampson and Halifax counties say they won't enforce the mask requirement...

https://www.cbs17.com/news/local-news/some-central-nc-sheriffs-say-they-wont-enforce-coopers-statewide-mask-requirement/

[SEWIGuy]

"Sampson County Sheriff Jimmy Thornton wrote that he believes Cooper's order is unconstitutional and unenforceable."

I wonder if Jimmy believes that if I walked around without a shirt or shoes on that enforcing that ordiance is unconstitutional as well?  Seriously we are run by idiots.

[oscar]

The governor of NC has announced that the state will remain in Phase 2 for three more weeks. Masks will also be mandatory in public places. A copy of the executive order can be found near the bottom of the press release.

https://governor.nc.gov/news/north-carolina-pauses-safer-home-phase-2-adds-statewide-requirement-%EF%BB%BF-face-coverings

The sheriffs of Sampson and Halifax counties say they won't enforce the mask requirement...

https://www.cbs17.com/news/local-news/some-central-nc-sheriffs-say-they-wont-enforce-coopers-statewide-mask-requirement/

If you read the Governor's order, you'll see that law enforcement doesn't have much of a role in enforcing the mask requirement anyway. Maybe if a shopowner orders an unmasked person to leave, and that person doesn't, the cops can issue a citation for trespassing. This is similar to what Virginia's governor did, in giving the health department the lead role in civil (not criminal) enforcement of mask requirements.

Methinks there's a bit of showboating here, by those NC sheriffs.

[LM117]

The governor of NC has announced that the state will remain in Phase 2 for three more weeks. Masks will also be mandatory in public places. A copy of the executive order can be found near the bottom of the press release.

https://governor.nc.gov/news/north-carolina-pauses-safer-home-phase-2-adds-statewide-requirement-%EF%BB%BF-face-coverings

The sheriffs of Sampson and Halifax counties say they won't enforce the mask requirement...

https://www.cbs17.com/news/local-news/some-central-nc-sheriffs-say-they-wont-enforce-coopers-statewide-mask-requirement/

If you read the Governor's order, you'll see that law enforcement doesn't have much of a role in enforcing the mask requirement anyway. Maybe if a shopowner orders an unmasked person to leave, and that person doesn't, the cops can issue a citation for trespassing.

Yep, they can.

https://www.wral.com/coronavirus/statewide-mask-requirement-begins-friday-businesses-customers-can-be-cited-if-they-don-t-comply/19160441/

Cooper said that businesses and customers could be cited if they do not obey the new order. Law enforcement can use trespassing laws to help businesses enforce these rules when customers refuse to obey them.

Methinks there's a bit of showboating here, by those NC sheriffs.

Agreed. I'm pretty familiar with Sampson County and ENC in general and this doesn't surprise me any. More in that region will probably follow suit. I know the sheriff of Johnston County doesn't have any love for Cooper, obviously for political reasons.

[kphoger]

"Sampson County Sheriff Jimmy Thornton wrote that he believes Cooper's order is unconstitutional and unenforceable."

I wonder if Jimmy believes that if I walked around without a shirt or shoes on that enforcing that ordiance is unconstitutional as well?  Seriously we are run by idiots.

Cite your reference for claiming there is a shirt & shoes ordinance.  People say all the time that shirt and shoes are required by ordinance, but I know of no such state law*.  Local ordinances, perhaps.  Businesses requiring shirt and shoes do so by their own individual policies, not based on any supposed health code.  However, if a business refuses to serve someone because he isn't wearing shirt or shoes, and then that person refuses to leave, the police could get involved as a matter of trespassing.


*  Except, of course, for state nudity laws that apply only to women.

[kphoger]

it's still important to have at least some degree of current events awareness.

I've begun to question the importance of that.  I never really much followed the news until just a few years ago, and I'm almost 39 years old.  When I think back to 15-20 years ago, it was a time in which I had no TV service, no internet at home or on my phone, and no newspaper subscription.  Am I happier now than I was back then because I'm more aware of current events?  No, I can't say that I am.  Do I think I'm more of a well-rounded individual by following the news?  Maybe slightly, but not much.

[SEWIGuy]

"Sampson County Sheriff Jimmy Thornton wrote that he believes Cooper's order is unconstitutional and unenforceable."

I wonder if Jimmy believes that if I walked around without a shirt or shoes on that enforcing that ordiance is unconstitutional as well?  Seriously we are run by idiots.

Cite your reference for claiming there is a shirt & shoes ordinance.  People say all the time that shirt and shoes are required by ordinance, but I know of no such state law*.  Local ordinances, perhaps.  Businesses requiring shirt and shoes do so by their own individual policies, not based on any supposed health code.  However, if a business refuses to serve someone because he isn't wearing shirt or shoes, and then that person refuses to leave, the police could get involved as a matter of trespassing.


*  Except, of course, for state nudity laws that apply only to women.

My point is that such an ordinance would not be unconstitutional.

[J N Winkler]

Isn't it a general rule that a person on private property without lawful excuse must be offered an opportunity to "cure trespass" before he or she is arrested?