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Author Topic: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?  (Read 3644 times)

Bobby5280

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2020, 02:32:12 PM »

With I-10 in Texas it would sort of appear at the 3-digit I-x10 routes are numbered sequentially in order from West to East. But there's only I-110 in El Paso, I-410 in San Antonio and I-610 in Houston.

Upstate New York is one of the few areas of the country where a very obvious sequential numbering system took place for 3-digit Interstate routes from Buffalo to Albany. But then I-990 came along to disrupt that system.

Hypothetically, Loop 8 in Houston could be called I-810. Or if we wanted to keep the sixes thing going for Houston loop routes, Loop 8 could be called I-645 and the Grand Parkway could be re-numbered as I-669 (as some have previously suggested).
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bluecountry

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2020, 04:44:17 PM »

With I-10 in Texas it would sort of appear at the 3-digit I-x10 routes are numbered sequentially in order from West to East. But there's only I-110 in El Paso, I-410 in San Antonio and I-610 in Houston.

Upstate New York is one of the few areas of the country where a very obvious sequential numbering system took place for 3-digit Interstate routes from Buffalo to Albany. But then I-990 came along to disrupt that system.

Hypothetically, Loop 8 in Houston could be called I-810. Or if we wanted to keep the sixes thing going for Houston loop routes, Loop 8 could be called I-645 and the Grand Parkway could be re-numbered as I-669 (as some have previously suggested).
Gotcha, so pretty much Houston boxed themselves in with I-610 being the 1st loop.
Couldn't have 8 be 245 or 445?
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Bobby5280

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2020, 10:15:53 PM »

Several combinations with I-10, I-45 or I-69 being the parent 2di routes would work.

Unsigned I-345 is the only 3di route from I-45. That leaves I-245, I-445, I-645 and I-845 open for potential use on loop highways in Texas.

So far I-69 has turned and burned only I-169 and I-369. That leaves 4 even numbered routes and 3 odd numbered routes open.

As mentioned before, only I-110, I-410 and I-610 have been used in Texas so far. 4 odd numbered and 2 even numbered I-x10 routes remain available.

If it was up to me, I'd go with I-645 on Loop 8 and I-669 on the Grand Parkway just for the aesthetic thing of having all the big loops in Houston be 600 numbered routes. It would be a touch like the AZ-101, AZ-202, AZ-303 theme going on in Phoenix. Oh, there is that proposed Northeast spur of the Grand Parkway that begins at the NE corner of that giant loop and runs North to meet I-69. That could be I-269 or I-869, take your pick.

In the end, this is all just hypothetical talk. Chances are the loops around Houston will remain with state highway designations. And US-290 between Houston and Austin may continue to carry that designation long after the entire route is upgraded to Interstate quality.
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thisdj78

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #53 on: February 06, 2020, 10:40:37 PM »

Several combinations with I-10, I-45 or I-69 being the parent 2di routes would work.

Unsigned I-345 is the only 3di route from I-45. That leaves I-245, I-445, I-645 and I-845 open for potential use on loop highways in Texas.

So far I-69 has turned and burned only I-169 and I-369. That leaves 4 even numbered routes and 3 odd numbered routes open.

As mentioned before, only I-110, I-410 and I-610 have been used in Texas so far. 4 odd numbered and 2 even numbered I-x10 routes remain available.

If it was up to me, I'd go with I-645 on Loop 8 and I-669 on the Grand Parkway just for the aesthetic thing of having all the big loops in Houston be 600 numbered routes. It would be a touch like the AZ-101, AZ-202, AZ-303 theme going on in Phoenix. Oh, there is that proposed Northeast spur of the Grand Parkway that begins at the NE corner of that giant loop and runs North to meet I-69. That could be I-269 or I-869, take your pick.

In the end, this is all just hypothetical talk. Chances are the loops around Houston will remain with state highway designations. And US-290 between Houston and Austin may continue to carry that designation long after the entire route is upgraded to Interstate quality.

I didnít know about that spur from the Grand Parkway. Where could I find info on that?
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bluecountry

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #54 on: February 07, 2020, 09:24:09 AM »

Several combinations with I-10, I-45 or I-69 being the parent 2di routes would work.

Unsigned I-345 is the only 3di route from I-45. That leaves I-245, I-445, I-645 and I-845 open for potential use on loop highways in Texas.

So far I-69 has turned and burned only I-169 and I-369. That leaves 4 even numbered routes and 3 odd numbered routes open.

As mentioned before, only I-110, I-410 and I-610 have been used in Texas so far. 4 odd numbered and 2 even numbered I-x10 routes remain available.

If it was up to me, I'd go with I-645 on Loop 8 and I-669 on the Grand Parkway just for the aesthetic thing of having all the big loops in Houston be 600 numbered routes. It would be a touch like the AZ-101, AZ-202, AZ-303 theme going on in Phoenix. Oh, there is that proposed Northeast spur of the Grand Parkway that begins at the NE corner of that giant loop and runs North to meet I-69. That could be I-269 or I-869, take your pick.

In the end, this is all just hypothetical talk. Chances are the loops around Houston will remain with state highway designations. And US-290 between Houston and Austin may continue to carry that designation long after the entire route is upgraded to Interstate quality.

But it definitely should be where 8 and 99 are no lower than 6 as the first digit where they to be interstates?
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Henry

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2020, 10:11:56 AM »

Houston's a late bloomer, as it wasn't nearly as large in 1960 as it is now. So I suspect that's why there aren't anymore Interstates than the four that are there (I-10, I-45, I-69 and I-610).
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #56 on: February 07, 2020, 05:38:42 PM »

Does the city of Houston, or the state of Texas need any more Interstate designations? I would loudly say "NO!", and tell both Texas and North Carolina to lay off the Interstate designation binge they've been on.
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Bobby5280

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #57 on: February 07, 2020, 07:51:41 PM »

Quote from: thisdj78
I didnít know about that spur from the Grand Parkway. Where could I find info on that?

I've seen a couple images of it. Such as this:

http://i.imgur.com/1ScQV.png

I don't know how serious those proposals may be. Construction of Section H on the Grand Parkway (the NW area of the loop going East of I-69) is well under way, but doesn't include any spur coming off the NW area going up toward Cleveland or Sheppard. If TX DOT or other toll road agencies do want to build such a thing they'll have to get after it. Otherwise any potential ROW may end up covered in new residential development before they can get anything built.

Quote from: The Ghostbuster
Does the city of Houston, or the state of Texas need any more Interstate designations? I would loudly say "NO!", and tell both Texas and North Carolina to lay off the Interstate designation binge they've been on.

I don't mind them re-naming an existing urban/suburban loop highway or spur with a 3-digit Interstate designation. Texas doesn't really have many of those. My main gripe is with politically charged, porky routes like I-14.

Texas is a huge state and most of its nearly 28 million residents live along or within the Texas Triangle. I don't think that region is over-served with Interstate-labeled highways. One thing is certain: several corridors both short and long in length within the Texas triangle need major upgrades.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 03:43:00 PM by Bobby5280 »
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rte66man

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #58 on: February 08, 2020, 12:23:03 PM »

I didnít know about that spur from the Grand Parkway. Where could I find info on that?

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3624.msg167349#msg167349
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abqtraveler

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #59 on: February 09, 2020, 12:36:30 PM »

Part of the reason also why a lot of Houston's freeways are not interstates is because they represent state routes that were originally surface roads that were upgraded to freeways over time, while keeping the same route designations.
Well the NJTP, the PATP, the CT TP, etc all were in the same spot.

I'm sticking to my theory, Houston was too 'late' to the show by which point Fed funds were gone.

The turnpikes of the northeast were either built or under construction when the Interstate Highway System was established in 1956. These toll roads were already built as limited access highways, and were added to the Interstate system since it made no sense to build "free" interstates paralleling the turnpikes.

A lot of the freeways around Houston started off decades ago as 2-lane roads, that were widened to 4 lane roads, and then converted to freeways with at-grade intersections replaced with interchanges. Most of the turnpikes were built as new-terrain freeways where no road previously existed, although most of those turnpikes parallel a pre-existing US route.
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bluecountry

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #60 on: February 10, 2020, 12:15:18 PM »

Let's do a hypothetical:

Scenario A:
-Houston decides to incorporate to the "I" system:
        Beltway 8, 99, 290, 249, 288 (leaving Hardy and Westpark as is)...I am missing any?
       What would their I #s be today?

Scenario B:
-Like the northeast, when Houston built their expressways they were incoporated from the start to the "I" system
       What would 610/8/99/249/290/288 be?
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Bobby5280

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #61 on: February 10, 2020, 03:47:41 PM »

Quote from: bluecountry
Scenario A:
-Houston decides to incorporate to the "I" system:
        Beltway 8, 99, 290, 249, 288 (leaving Hardy and Westpark as is)...I am missing any?
       What would their I #s be today?

NOBODY knows the answer to that. If anyone says they do they're lying. Why continue to ask the same question over and over again? All anyone in this forum can do is guess what Interstate number a toll road like Beltway 8 would receive in the very unlikely event it was granted an Interstate designation. At best it only makes for a "fictional highway" discussion.
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bluecountry

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #62 on: February 10, 2020, 04:45:56 PM »

OK lets make a guess then if we had a blank slate
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Bobby5280

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #63 on: February 10, 2020, 09:20:16 PM »

We've already been guessing and stating our own preferences for what the numbers could be. It's pointless repeating that.
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bluecountry

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #64 on: February 11, 2020, 11:02:59 AM »

We've already been guessing and stating our own preferences for what the numbers could be. It's pointless repeating that.
OK fine, here is my guess:


If starting from scratch:
   I-610=I-210
   8=I-645
   99=I-810
     90=I-110
   249=I-345
   288=I-369
   290=I-710


If re-naming today:
   I-610=I-610
   8=I-645
   99=I-810
     90=I-110
   249=I-345
   288=I-369
   290=I-710
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GaryV

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #65 on: February 11, 2020, 12:37:59 PM »

This has definitely crossed into fantasy.
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #66 on: February 11, 2020, 04:41:39 PM »

Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston? Maybe the same reason there aren't any 3dis in Phoenix (both 410 and 510 were canceled). Or am I comparing apples to oranges?
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bwana39

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #67 on: February 11, 2020, 04:50:06 PM »

You have:
    -10, 45, 69 (which is confusing), and 610....thats it!

All the rest are not part of the interstate system:
    -8, 90, 99, 288, 249, 290, and then Hardy/Westpark Toll

Why is it there is just a single interstate spur?
My only guess, Houston was a late booming metro region, by which point all Fed funds were gone?

It is ALL of Texas, not just Houston
First, Texas doesn't generally have ANY state highway mainlanes that are tolled. As a rule, the service (feeder if you are in Houston LOL) lanes are the numbered highway and the toll road is just the toll road. This in itself keeps over half of the roads you mentioned excluded from Interstate numbering.
Likewise some of the interstates in Texas also have tolled HOV lanes. 
Each of the MAJOR Texas cities back in the sixties got one 3-digit interstate loop. Houston got 610. Dallas got 635. Fort Worth got 820. San Antonio got 410. That is it. (There is of course the unmarked spur (I-345) That bridges Interstate 45 and US75 in downtown Dallas. ) Austin was somewhat smaller back then.
Someone else touched on it. Houston has been a top ten city since before the initiation of the interstates.
Texas hasn't left money on the table.Interstate highways since the late sixties have just been a label.   Sometimes, upgrading a limited access US or State Highway to Interstate SPECIFICATIONS is costly. In a lot of cases, AASHTO certification is not worth the expense.

In a nutshell, Texas has not really been big in the numbering game. I-69 is the first new interstate in decades
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Echostatic

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #68 on: February 13, 2020, 10:22:43 AM »

First, Texas doesn't generally have ANY state highway mainlanes that are tolled.

SH 130
SH 45, except for the Circle C portion
SH 99
SH 121

to name a few

kphoger

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #69 on: February 13, 2020, 01:03:18 PM »


First, Texas doesn't generally have ANY state highway mainlanes that are tolled.

SH 130
SH 45, except for the Circle C portion
SH 99
SH 121

to name a few

Formerly 255 as well.
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sprjus4

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #70 on: February 13, 2020, 05:11:36 PM »

^

Don't toll road segments have special designations?
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Echostatic

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #71 on: February 13, 2020, 05:29:45 PM »

Don't toll road segments have special designations?

They have a different shield but they're still the same old TX Highway. Same thing applies to TX Loop highways.

VS or

bwana39

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2020, 06:39:22 PM »

First, Texas doesn't generally have ANY state highway mainlanes that are tolled.

SH 130
SH 45, except for the Circle C portion
SH 99
SH 121

to name a few

All of 121 is technically the frontage (service / feeder) roads except for the free parts. The Tolled freeway lanes are technically Sam Rayburn Tollway. It is possible the TXDOT operated ones around Austin and Houston do not follow those rules, but in North Texas it is that way.
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Perfxion

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #73 on: February 14, 2020, 08:44:37 AM »

First, Texas doesn't generally have ANY state highway mainlanes that are tolled.

SH 130
SH 45, except for the Circle C portion
SH 99
SH 121

to name a few

All of 121 is technically the frontage (service / feeder) roads except for the free parts. The Tolled freeway lanes are technically Sam Rayburn Tollway. It is possible the TXDOT operated ones around Austin and Houston do not follow those rules, but in North Texas it is that way.

Beltway 8 in Houston is the same way except change the word Rayburn to Houston.

This is the way.
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Anthony_JK

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Re: Why Are There So Few Actually 'I' Interstate Expressways in Metro Houston?
« Reply #74 on: February 14, 2020, 10:34:18 AM »

First, Texas doesn't generally have ANY state highway mainlanes that are tolled.

SH 130
SH 45, except for the Circle C portion
SH 99
SH 121

to name a few

All of 121 is technically the frontage (service / feeder) roads except for the free parts. The Tolled freeway lanes are technically Sam Rayburn Tollway. It is possible the TXDOT operated ones around Austin and Houston do not follow those rules, but in North Texas it is that way.

Beltway 8/Sam Houston Tollway  in Houston follows the same protocol: Beltway 8 signed on the frontage roads; SHT  signed on the tolled mainlanes. Only exception is the free section between I-610 and US 90 on the eastern side, including the James Jones Bridge.
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