What book are you reading, and what do you think of it?

[ZLoth]

This is long overdue, but I have some friends who want to know my impression of the seven Harry Potter books after completing the full-cast audiobooks. Before starting, I want to make sure of the perspecitive I'm coming in on:

• I'm a science fiction fan who is in their mid-50s, so probably not the target audience. This, I'm seeing and questioning certain plot points which might be overlooked by a younger reader.
• This muggle (ordinary human with no magic skills) is familiar with bits and pieces of the Potterverse, such as Harry Potter is a wizard and that Hogwarts is a school for wizards.
• I have not read any of the seven published books.
• I have only seen brief clips of the movies. Yes, Alan Rickman is iconic as Professor Snape. By Grabthar's hammer, by the suns of Worvan, remember Nakatomi Plaza!
• I have not listened to the audiobooks by either Jim Dale or Stephen Fry. Based upon their previous works, both are excellent narrators, although I will give a slight edge to Stephen Fry.
• And, yes, I'm familiar with the backstory of J. K. Rowling and how the books came to be. For purposes of this commentary, I'm focusing on the books.

While I will try to keep this spoiler-free as much as possible, as I am covering seven books, there will be minor spoilers.

Although not explicitly stated in the books, the timeline that the books take place is between Summer, 1991 and May, 1998. (this roughly corresponds with the books release from June, 1997 to July, 2007). This means that there is a contrast between what London and the world was in the 1990s verses the world of 2026, including the use by a character of a film camera. Adding to this fact that the books use the plot device of providing extreme contrasts between the dull and boring Muggle world of ours verses the seemingly Dickenesque Wizard world filled with interesting and unusual characters. One contrast that I noticed was between the "we are absolutely the perfectly normal and dull family" of the Dursleys, Harry Potter's foster family, complete with his spoiled "can't do any wrong" spoiled bully cousin Dudley who mistreats Harry so badly that I'm surprised child welfare isn't called verses the dirt-poor yet love-rich Wesley family.

Then, there is the core trio of Ron Wesley, Hermione Granger, and Harry Potter. Ron comes from a long-time wizarding family that have all attending Hogwarts to the point that the sorting hat sighs and says "Another Wesley", but who provides us with the wizarding insights we need. Hermione, on the other hand, was born from two muggle parents, but is easily the smartest member of the group. Initially, she is off-butting as a "know-it-all", but soon becomes a beloved character. Because this is a trio, there is often the use of the two-one narrative strategy where there is two insiders and one outsider. You also see this with the Blue Man Group.

Then, there is the protagonist Harry Potter. Most of the books are told from his perspective, and right away, you can tell that Harry is a very flawed hero. The first part of the first book introduces him as the unwanted foster kid who is badly mistreated by his foster parents and bullied by his cousin. Yet, strange things keep happening to him and complete strangers keep bowing to him. Then, as he approaches age eleven, he finds out that not only that "You're a wizard, Harry", but a famous one because of what happened when, somehow, he defeated a big bad known as "he who shan't be named". Yet, being unfamiliar with the wizarding ways, he is a fish out of water, and thank goodness Ron Wesley is his guide. Harry also makes mistakes along the way which has universe-impacting decisions. I also feel that Harry get a bit whiny the further we get into the book series, although I also understand it is part of his frustration as well as his warnings go unheeded and worse, being manipulating in ways he does not agree with.

The big idea, however, is that the Harry Potter series is a coming of age story not only for Harry Potter, Ron Wesley, Hermione Granger, and the students of Hogwarts, but also the interactions with the Wizarding World as well. You can easily divide the books into three sections: The Early Years for books one through three, The Teenage Years for books four through six, and the Dark Year for the final book as the author flips the narrative upside-down, destroys some key items which would have been useful as well as kill off some beloved characters.

The big question, though, is "Did I enjoy the series?" The answer is yes, with some minor reservations. As I'm viewing this from an older adult perspective, I'm questioning some of the plot points and setting that might be overlooked by a younger audience. Still, at one point, I was having fun with Alexa, Amazon's assistant, by asking silly questions like "Which is smarter... Dudley Dursley or a stop sign?", "What advice would Brigadier General Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart give to Draco Malfoy?" (reference to _Doctor Who), and "Would Hagrid/Snape make a good High Court Enforcement Agent?" (reference to Can't Pay? We'll Take It Away). I still feel that the first book, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, is the weakest book of the series as it carries the burden of introduces the characters, world building, and "we're not sure if this book will take off".

One big question that comes up with full-cast editions of audiobooks is "Is the book abridged?" Absolutely not, and I think it would enrage to Potterverse fandom if it was abridged.

When it comes to the voice casting, I feel that most of the voices were spot on. Cush Jumbo is excellent as being the narrator, and I have my favorites as Mark Addy being Rubeus Hagrid and Hugh Laurie bring Albus Dumbledore being standouts. I also recognize Michelle Gomez as Professor Minerva McGonagall who also portrayed "Missy" from Doctor Who, as well as several other actors from both series of Doctor Who having cameo parts. One particular cameo is David Holmes who was Daniel Radcliffe's stunt double and was paralyzed in a set accident, yet comes back to voice Stan Shunpike in Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. Yes, I realize that noone can replace the iconic Alan Rickman as Professor Snape, but I feel that Riz Ahmed dud a pretty good job in the role. What was most jarring to me and listeners was some of the recasting of voices after book three made necessary because the characters were older. It did take some getting used to.

I also see Amazon's/Audible's strategy in commissioning this full-cast audiobook series. The hook is that the Harry Potter series is a beloved book series, and provide that as a entry point to the world of audiobooks. Then, that new listener may go back and listen to either the Jim Dale or Stephen Fry versions of the book, or target other, well known books such as Lord of the Rings, A Song of Ice and Fire (aka Game of Thrones), The Martian, Project Hail Mary, or Dungeon Crawler Carl. With digital distribution, smart phones, and Bluetooth, it's easy to listen to audiobooks in the car rather than the local radio stations, and yes, I have listening to audiobooks while soaking in the pool to escape the Texas heat. While the Jim Dale version of the audiobooks may be available through your local library, the full-cast editions are a Amazon exclusive, and you are recommended to get a audible subscription plan to obtain the books.

Anyways, off I go to the universe of Dungeon Crawler Carl.

[wanderer2575]

I'm starting to think the Harry Potter books is in three arcs:

• Books 1-3 - Harry Potter: The Early Years
• Books 4-6 - Harry Potter: The Teenage Years
• Book 7 -  Harry Potter: Nightmare Year

[ZLoth]

It must have been embarrassing for Hermione Granger, a wizard born from muggle parents, to completely outsmart those pure-bloods.

[vdeane]

What a second, there is some sort of Battlestar and Harry Potter crossover?  Is this original run of Battlestar or the remake?

Yep - remake.

[Max Rockatansky]

What a second, there is some sort of Battlestar and Harry Potter crossover?  Is this original run of Battlestar or the remake?

Yep - remake.

So what, are the Death Eaters like Cylons or something?  Is Brother Cavil is a stand in for Voldemort?

[RoadWarrior56]

I am currently reading an alternative historical fiction novel that I obtained through Kindle Unlimited that I read on an iPad or my Kindle.  The title is not important to this post but something else is.  This author had put a series of books in fairly quick succession with obvious A.I illustrations on the covers.  The other thing I notice about it, and a couple of others that I have read recently is the repetitive nature of much of the phrasing.  There is even a chapter in this book that is even partially repeated from an earlier chapter!!  The book has a human author, but it smells like there is a lot of A.I. "assistance" in the writing of it.  It appears that A.I. "slop" has seeped into even novels now.  I don't care that much if an author has assistance of A.I. that is helping to write and/or edit a book: HOWEVER, if I can tell, as a reader, that  A.I. was a integral part of the writing process, then it failed and I will not read any more of their "works".

[vdeane]

What a second, there is some sort of Battlestar and Harry Potter crossover?  Is this original run of Battlestar or the remake?

Yep - remake.

So what, are the Death Eaters like Cylons or something?  Is Brother Cavil is a stand in for Voldemort?

Harry actually does compare Cavil to Voldemort at one point, however the story actually takes place after the final battle in book 7 for HP and starts with season 2 on Caprica for BSG.  Voldemort set up some runes to get rid of Harry as sort of a "failsafe", and when Ginny tried to push him away, they both got transported though space and time to Caprica.  They end up joining the fleet as they search for Earth, with Harry becoming a tactical officer similar to Gaeta and Dee (and Helo later in the series), while Ginny becomes a viper pilot.  Meanwhile, Ron and Hermione are trying to figure out where Harry and Ginny went and how to rescue them.

It appears that A.I. "slop" has seeped into even novels now.

Now?  I seem to recall novels being one of the first things Chat GPT was mentioned to be assisting with.  And I'm not surprised - with how publishing is now, authors have to put out a book every couple months if they want to earn a living that way, which means AI and a lot of repetitive and formulaic stuff.

[akt85]

I am currently reading "The Oregon Trail: A New American Journey" by Rinker Buck. It was interesting reading about the author retracing the Oregon Trail in a covered wagon in the 21st Century. A lot of the old Oregon Trail has either completely disappeared under modern paved road or goes through private property such as summer camps and ranches.

[vdeane]

I am currently reading "The Oregon Trail: A New American Journey" by Rinker Buck. It was interesting reading about the author retracing the Oregon Trail in a covered wagon in the 21st Century. A lot of the old Oregon Trail has either completely disappeared under modern paved road or goes through private property such as summer camps and ranches.

Did he lose any oxen trying to ford a river?  And I hope nobody died of dysentery.

[Scott5114]

Rinker Buck

deer on skates

[elsmere241]

Just getting in to Battlefield America: The war on the American people by John W. Whitehead

[akt85]

I am currently reading "The Oregon Trail: A New American Journey" by Rinker Buck. It was interesting reading about the author retracing the Oregon Trail in a covered wagon in the 21st Century. A lot of the old Oregon Trail has either completely disappeared under modern paved road or goes through private property such as summer camps and ranches.

Did he lose any oxen trying to ford a river?  And I hope nobody died of dysentery.

So far in the book he didn't lose any mules.

[ZLoth]

From Deadline:

Harry Potter Audible Full-Cast Audiobooks Surpass 5 Million Sales

Audible's Harry Potter: The Full-Cast Audio Editions have sold over 5M copies. Amazon-owned Audible started releasing new versions of the J.K. Rowling series last November, with a glitzy cast voicing the characters and cutting edge spatial audio.

All seven full-cast versions of the books have now been released and Audible told Deadline that it has surpassed the 5M sales figure. The news lands on September 1, which coincidentally is 'Back To Hogwarts Day', the fictional date that students return to lessons at the eponymous wizarding school.

FULL ARTICLE HERE

Uh, wait a second? 5 million across seven books means that the average book sold 714,286 copies. I will accept that the first book probably "sold" more copies than the seventh book simply because the books are meant to be meant to be listened in order, and there are probably listeners who are less aggressive than I was in listening to the book series.

[Scott5114]

It is beyond baffling to me that people continue to sink that much money into the one idea that has-been author had 25 years ago.

Other books exist, for Christ's sake.

[vdeane]

It is beyond baffling to me that people continue to sink that much money into the one idea that has-been author had 25 years ago.

Other books exist, for Christ's sake.

They came around at just the right time, making YA literature big, right as the internet was enabling fan communities to come together, becoming really into something went from being "obsessed" to "cool" as nerd culture went mainstream, but before the internet caused the traditional book market to shrink.  That and the books aging with the readers combined with really good marketing from the publishers (I remember when were we told that she had binders and binders of notes on stuff that never made it into the books, and that only became discredited when the stuff on Pottermore proved to be flimsy enough to show that she really was making it up as she went, along with the audience getting old enough to notice plot holes).  It basically hooked a generation that was coming of age at the time.

[Scott5114]

It is beyond baffling to me that people continue to sink that much money into the one idea that has-been author had 25 years ago.

Other books exist, for Christ's sake.

They came around at just the right time, making YA literature big, right as the internet was enabling fan communities to come together, becoming really into something went from being "obsessed" to "cool" as nerd culture went mainstream, but before the internet caused the traditional book market to shrink.  That and the books aging with the readers combined with really good marketing from the publishers (I remember when were we told that she had binders and binders of notes on stuff that never made it into the books, and that only became discredited when the stuff on Pottermore proved to be flimsy enough to show that she really was making it up as she went, along with the audience getting old enough to notice plot holes).  It basically hooked a generation that was coming of age at the time.

That's all understandable, but after I read the series, I went "That was nice. What's next?" and started reading something else. I've reread it a couple of times since then. But there are some people who act like they just can't move on to something new. Rowling and her fandom are like the nerd equivalent of that guy from Married With Children who's still clinging to that one football game he played in high school. Like, hell, if the Homestuck crowd can move on from that trainwreck, so can the Potter people.

The only other book series I can think of that inspires that level of widespread attachment is Lord of the Rings. That at least has the draw of being a foundational work for a genre, and all of Tolkien's papers show that its bones are far more solid than Harry Potter's. I'm disappointed that I don't enjoy Tolkien's writing style enough to struggle through it, but I at least respect him as an author.

[kphoger]

Good vs evil epics have a timeless resonance with people, and a lot of people also get weary of modernity and enjoy stepping into a world that feels old (or rich, or whatever the word is that I'm looking for).  Don't forget that the first LoTR movie came out right around then too, and those books had been published nearly a half-century earlier, yet I know people who still enjoy dressing up as characters from those movies and going to conventions and stuff.  It was just a few years later that they tried to make The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe movies work and, if those books had lent themselves better to movie sequels than they actually do, then I imagine those would have picked up some momentum too.

[ZLoth]

It is beyond baffling to me that people continue to sink that much money into the one idea that has-been author had 25 years ago.

Other books exist, for Christ's sake.

Here is a list of Audible's most listened to and bestselling audiobooks. Currently, slots two through six,  eight, eleven, and twelve are occupied by author Matt Dinniman with Dungeon Crawler Carl. Slot eighteen is occupied by Project Hail Mary. It's not until slot 23 that we have the full-cast audio of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. After that, we see other series such as Throne of Glass, Crescent City, Red Rising, and A Court of Thorns and Roses. Rebecca Yarro's Empyrean currently doesn't show up until position 61.

While I enjoyed my journey through the Potterverse through the full-cast audiobooks, I also raised some concerns and plot holes that I might have not seen as a younger person, and I'm sure I'll see some additional questions if I re-read the series. I posted my thoughts earlier in the thread, and even discussed them with a friend of mine who has been though the novels several times and agreeing with my points.

I also feel the same way about the Ian Fleming 007 books. Not only are the books different from the movies, but they are in a different universe than the actual universe in the 1950s-1960s. It has been suggested that I also read the novels of George Smiley by John le Carré which I'm told is more grounded that Ian Fleming's books.

My current listening obsession series is Dungeon Crawler Carl, and I have completed part one of the first book. My goal, when going through a series, is that between each book of the series or even between part one and part two of a book, is to cleanse my palate with a book from a different genre. That can be True Crime, Military History, Non-Fiction, History, or Biographies. And, just because one series is the current hot and popular doesn't mean my next series will be too. On my "to be listened" list is The Prydain Chronicles by Lloyd Alexander of which the movie The Black Cauldron was loosely based upon.

In the end, the point is that I'm reading. Yes, it's (usually) unabridged audiobooks, but it beats the broadcast stations here in DFW. It also allows me to try some books that have finally worn off their "it's homework" stigma.

[elsmere241]

Right now I have twenty books checked out from the library (with holds on another fifteen). No, I don't usually have this many books out  I started a staycation yesterday afternoon that runs through next week.  I hope to finish at least some during that time.

Anyway, I have cracked open a few of them.  I've gotten the farthest with Battlefield America: the war on the American people by John W. Whitehead.

[Scott5114]

[snipped for length]

For clarity, my comments were more directed at the world at large than you personally; it makes sense for someone who never read Harry Potter when it came out to at some point check it out decades later to see what the fuss was about. What baffles me is that the immense continued fuss still exists to begin with; the amount of cultural attention showered on them doesn't make a whole lot of sense when they're really not any better than any of the other books you've mentioned (of those you mentioned, I've read the Empyrean and A Court of Thorns and Roses series and liked them both; my wife is currently working on Dungeon Crawler Carl, and Throne of Glass is her favorite series of all time).

Given that the fuss doesn't seem to be all that warranted from a quality perspective, I suspect a lot of it is marketing bullshit, and that gets my hackles up. That's not to say that Sarah J. Maas or Rebecca Yarros don't do marketing bullshit too, mind you, but they're both better authors than Rowling is. (There were a few moments early on in my experience with Maas where I recognized her cleverly slipping world-building info to the reader in such a way that it didn't really feel like she was actually doing exposition. In my own experience, that's a tricky thing to pull off as cleanly as Maas did it, so I can't help but respect her for that.)

[kphoger]

Given that the fuss doesn't seem to be all that warranted from a quality perspective, I suspect a lot of it is marketing bullshit, and that gets my hackles up.

Since when do people only like stuff that's high quality?

And even what is quality, anyway?  At some point, doesn't it boil down to what people like?

[Scott5114]

Given that the fuss doesn't seem to be all that warranted from a quality perspective, I suspect a lot of it is marketing bullshit, and that gets my hackles up.

Since when do people only like stuff that's high quality?

And even what is quality, anyway?  At some point, doesn't it boil down to what people like?

Okay, so modify that to say "staying power".

There were a ton of books that were popular in the 1920s that nobody remembers today, because although people liked them at the time, that popularity wasn't enough to permit them to stand the test of time.

As for "what is quality", I gave an example right there in my post.

[kphoger]

As for "what is quality", I gave an example right there in my post.

Maybe I missed it.  Did you define "quality" somewhere in there?

This is similar to our philosophical discussion about music and art.  If part of the purpose of an art form is for it to be enjoyed by others, then it seems to me that the mere fact that a lot of people keep enjoying something should factor into our assessment of its quality.  At some level, popular things must be good art, and unpopular things bad art, because part of why we have public art in the first place is for people to engage positively with it.  I'm not saying that should be the entirety of how we grade quality—far from it, in fact—but ignoring it strikes me as a bit too snobbish.

[Scott5114]

Maybe I missed it.  Did you define "quality" somewhere in there?

I didn't define it, so much as give an example of something I considered high-quality. Here, I'll elaborate on that example, with a message I sent to Renee when I was actively in the middle of reading A Court of Thorns and Roses (the first book in the series):



I'm someone who has been in the position of "I have important information I need to give the audience, and I need to do it in a way which won't break immersion by making it obvious that I'm dumping info on them". It's very easy to go so overboard with doling out information that you lose the audience, or to use such a light touch that they don't recognize the significance of what you're telling them. And the pronunciation of names is always hard to handle in print, because it's not an auditory medium and there's no real obvious way to slip in a pronunciation guide most of the time, since it's not likely that the characters are going to have any in-universe reason to dwell on it (Rebecca Yarros usually ends up having interviewers quiz her on how the names of the dragons are supposed to be pronounced). So I respect that Sarah J. Maas was able to elegantly solve that problem—that's what I consider quality, because she executed her solution to that tricky writing problem well.

If part of the purpose of an art form is for it to be enjoyed by others,

I don't think it is at all, actually. I think the purpose is to make you feel something, but that doesn't necessarily have to be "enjoyment". People get something out of horror movies, but "enjoyment" doesn't seem like the right word.

There are a number of moments in Harry Potter where you'd think there'd be some sort of emotional kick and it just kind of falls flat. Generally, you'd think that the main character deciding what they want to do with their life would have some sort of impact. But Harry just kind of hears about the concept of being an Auror midway through the series, kind of goes "that sounds good, I guess, maybe I'll do that when I graduate," and then in the epilogue we find out that yep, he grows up to become an Auror and that's that. Good for him, I guess? Stumbling into a career that sounds good enough to them is a somewhat realistic depiction of what happens to a lot of people, but this is fiction, so the whole thing just kind of feels like Rowling is underselling her main character achieving his dreams.

Harry Potter is just kind of a tabula rasa character in general—at the end of seven books we don't really know all that much about him that we didn't know in book one. We know he likes Quiddich. We know he wants to become an Auror but we don't know why, we know he ends up with crushes on a few different girls but there's nothing obvious about what he likes about them (presumably he likes Ginny Weasley because she happens to be around a lot). Mostly he exists because Voldemort is evil and so there has to be a good guy to oppose him, and it wasn't even Harry's choice to step into that role—Voldemort chose it for him when he was a baby. All of this makes it hard for me to feel one way or the other about him as a person. I don't like him, but I don't dislike him either. He's just sorta there.

At the time I read the books, I thought this "not really feeling anything about the main character" thing was a normal thing, but I've read other books since then that have proven that concept to be, ah...not actually a good idea. Hell, I kind of feel like I know what Link from Legend of Zelda is like as a person more than I do Harry Potter, and Link famously has no dialogue! But despite being a solemn knight who says nothing and keeps a neutral facial expression 90% of the time, he's also the sort of guy who breaks into a smile and literally jumps for joy when he cooks a nice steak, which is more than what I can say about Harry Potter's emotional state.

[ZLoth]

I'm of the opinion that just because someone or something is popular doesn't mean that that it's high quality. At an extreme, Jerry Springer had a popular daytime show that many people classified as trash. i just classified it as "not worth my time at all."

For many of the older works of literature and authors, many of them remained relevant because of television series and/or movies being made of them. Ian Fleming's novels took off in March, 1961 once President Kenny, in a Life magazine article, stated From Russia With Love was one of his top ten favorite books.

I'm not the target demographic of the Harry Potter books. I went into these books with some very minor knowledge of the Potterverse books. Harry Potter is a very imperfect and flawed hero, and he made some mistakes which had some universe-impacting decisions. I also felt that he was a bit more whiney the further the books got along (some of it justifiably so), and some of the other characters were also more interesting than the protagonist himself.

Having said that, I understand that the Harry Potter movies follow the book decently even though changes had to be made to adapt to the movie running time. This is certainly better than the 007 books and movies which I feel exist in two completely different universes. Still, it will be quite a while before I revisit the Harry Potter or Ian Fleming 007 books with different narrators.

(of those you mentioned, I've read the Empyrean and A Court of Thorns and Roses series and liked them both; my wife is currently working on Dungeon Crawler Carl, and Throne of Glass is her favorite series of all time).

Given that the fuss doesn't seem to be all that warranted from a quality perspective, I suspect a lot of it is marketing bullshit, and that gets my hackles up. That's not to say that Sarah J. Maas or Rebecca Yarros don't do marketing bullshit too, mind you, but they're both better authors than Rowling is.

Those series are on my planned to be listened to. What is your opinion of the Andy Weir novels? I know I pushed ahead with the listening of Project Hail Mary just to avoid being spoiled when the movie came out earlier this year.