New Construction Technology

[kernals12]

You clearly live under a rock.

Not only is that an entirely dismissive statement, it is also a stronger substance than wood and wolves.

I mean, it's a Kernals12 thread.  Isn't only looking surface deep into a topic and only seeing aspects that support his view just kind of how he rolls?

Look in a mirror lately?

[Max Rockatansky]

You clearly live under a rock.

Not only is that an entirely dismissive statement, it is also a stronger substance than wood and wolves.

I mean, it's a Kernals12 thread.  Isn't only looking surface deep into a topic and only seeing aspects that support his view just kind of how he rolls?

Look in a mirror lately?

Actually I just did after I got out of the shower.  Kind of was unavoidable though given we have three mirrors in the bathroom. 

[Max Rockatansky]

But in an actual response, lumber has been in a huge decline west of the Rocky Mountains since the middle of the 20th Century.  The industry is hugely regulated and a lot of historic sites of lumber activity are now under some form of environmental preservation.  Some of the massive lumber lumber operations just around me that are now defunct include:

-  Almost everything around the City of Eureka and northern coast of California. 
-  Fort Bragg and the Lost Coast was nothing but lumber.
-  Lake Tahoe was a huge site of lumber operations which has essentially totally disappeared.
-  The Sanger Lumber Company operation at Millwood, the Kaweah Colony and other logging interests around Mineral King were direct factors in the creation of General Grant National Park (Kings Canyon) and Sequoia National Park. 

Someone else can probably opine better than I can regarding other coastal states like Oregon and Washington.  Suffice to say there would be some massive resistance to opening up logging rights for additional infrastructure development.  The cost of timber is already sky rocketing and about the only reliable source nowadays is via Forest Service permit.

Out east, reaching sustainability with logging operations and maintenance of a healthy amount of Forest is easier to achieve.  There is far more reliable water resources and an abundance of tree species that are potentially endangered.

[kernals12]

But in an actual response, lumber has been in a huge decline west of the Rocky Mountains since the middle of the 20th Century.  The industry is hugely regulated and a lot of historic sites of lumber activity are now under some form of environmental preservation.  Some of the massive lumber lumber operations just around me that are now defunct include:

-  Almost everything around the City of Eureka and northern coast of California. 
-  Fort Bragg and the Lost Coast was nothing but lumber.
-  Lake Tahoe was a huge site of lumber operations which has essentially totally disappeared.
-  The Sanger Lumber Company operation at Millwood, the Kaweah Colony and other logging interests around Mineral King were direct factors in the creation of General Grant National Park (Kings Canyon) and Sequoia National Park. 

Someone else can probably opine better than I can regarding other coastal states like Oregon and Washington.  Suffice to say there would be some massive resistance to opening up logging rights for additional infrastructure development.  The cost of timber is already sky rocketing and about the only reliable source nowadays is via Forest Service permit.

Out east, reaching sustainability with logging operations and maintenance of a healthy amount of Forest is easier to achieve.  There is far more reliable water resources and an abundance of tree species that are potentially endangered.

So what's the problem?

[Rothman]

Fire.

[kernals12]

Something like 80% of homes in the United States are made of wood and you guys are acting like this new wood will never work.

[Max Rockatansky]

But in an actual response, lumber has been in a huge decline west of the Rocky Mountains since the middle of the 20th Century.  The industry is hugely regulated and a lot of historic sites of lumber activity are now under some form of environmental preservation.  Some of the massive lumber lumber operations just around me that are now defunct include:

-  Almost everything around the City of Eureka and northern coast of California. 
-  Fort Bragg and the Lost Coast was nothing but lumber.
-  Lake Tahoe was a huge site of lumber operations which has essentially totally disappeared.
-  The Sanger Lumber Company operation at Millwood, the Kaweah Colony and other logging interests around Mineral King were direct factors in the creation of General Grant National Park (Kings Canyon) and Sequoia National Park. 

Someone else can probably opine better than I can regarding other coastal states like Oregon and Washington.  Suffice to say there would be some massive resistance to opening up logging rights for additional infrastructure development.  The cost of timber is already sky rocketing and about the only reliable source nowadays is via Forest Service permit.

Out east, reaching sustainability with logging operations and maintenance of a healthy amount of Forest is easier to achieve.  There is far more reliable water resources and an abundance of tree species that are potentially endangered.

So what's the problem?

The problem is that you're making a leap in logic that people would be universally on board for the lumber industry to expand.  That's the biggest issue with your threads, you don't have a firm grasp of how the larger world around may/may not accept some of your futurism concepts.

[kernals12]

Some people may protest but there's not much they can do to stop a logging boom.

[Max Rockatansky]

Some people may protest but there's not much they can do to stop a logging boom.

That's how political movements get started, with advocacy.  Political movements lead to things like National Parks, Wilderness Areas, State Parks and other areas of protection end of being created.  I mean, just look at how many freeways weren't built because people protested.

[kernals12]

Some people may protest but there's not much they can do to stop a logging boom.

That's how political movements get started, with advocacy.  Political movements lead to things like National Parks, Wilderness Areas, State Parks and other areas of protection end of being created.  I mean, just look at how many freeways weren't built because people protested.

Look how many more freeways were built despite protests.

[Max Rockatansky]

 

Some people may protest but there's not much they can do to stop a logging boom.

That's how political movements get started, with advocacy.  Political movements lead to things like National Parks, Wilderness Areas, State Parks and other areas of protection end of being created.  I mean, just look at how many freeways weren't built because people protested.

Look how many more freeways were built despite protests.

All I'm trying to say to you is that not every area is willing to accept things that area another might.  You're the one that is naive enough not understand why some people not want things like more logging. 

[Tom958]

All I'm trying to say to you is that not every area is willing to accept things that area another might.  You're the one that is naive enough not understand why some people not want things like more logging.

The rural south would like to have a word with you. 



Seriously: I read re the current lumber shortage that there's plenty of timber in the south, but not enough sawmills for the south to make up the shortfall right away. But with a major new source of demand, that could change to some extent.

There's also the rest of the world. Unfortunately, the likes of Bolsonaro would love this, most likely.

[Roadgeekteen]

Eh I'd rather not have mass deforestation. Also, I still can't take you seriously due to your signature.

[kernals12]

Eh I'd rather not have mass deforestation. Also, I still can't take you seriously due to your signature.

Typical Needham simpleton.

Trees grow back. The timber industry plants more trees than they cut down.

[Roadgeekteen]

Eh I'd rather not have mass deforestation. Also, I still can't take you seriously due to your signature.

Typical Needham simpleton.

Trees grow back. The timber industry plants more trees than they cut down.

Wellesley is just Needham but slightly richer. I mean I guess but many people hate the lumber industry.

[kernals12]

Beyond highways and bridges, this would utterly transform homebuilding. You'd need much less material and less labor to handle it. It would allow greater use of prefabrication since wall panels could be easily erected on site.

[GaryV]

Trees grow back. The timber industry plants more trees than they cut down.

But for 10-20 years the land looks like crap.

[kernals12]

Eh I'd rather not have mass deforestation. Also, I still can't take you seriously due to your signature.

Typical Needham simpleton.

Trees grow back. The timber industry plants more trees than they cut down.

Wellesley is just Needham but slightly richer. I mean I guess but many people hate the lumber industry.

The people who hate the lumber industry are city slickers. The people of Northern Maine surely love the lumber industry.

[Max Rockatansky]

Eh I'd rather not have mass deforestation. Also, I still can't take you seriously due to your signature.

Typical Needham simpleton.

Trees grow back. The timber industry plants more trees than they cut down.

If we are being fair RGT is the one with a far more proven track record regarding how the world actually works.  At least he doesn't get offended whenever someone doesn't agree with him one hundred percent. 

But hey, I'm talking to the guy who keeps coming back to a road forum to mostly talk about urban design topics.  You're the one who displays one dimensional thinking and the same opinions repeatedly. 

[Max Rockatansky]

All I'm trying to say to you is that not every area is willing to accept things that area another might.  You're the one that is naive enough not understand why some people not want things like more logging.

The rural south would like to have a word with you. 



Seriously: I read re the current lumber shortage that there's plenty of timber in the south, but not enough sawmills for the south to make up the shortfall right away. But with a major new source of demand, that could change to some extent.

There's also the rest of the world. Unfortunately, the likes of Bolsonaro would love this, most likely.

But even in states like Florida there has a been a huge decline in the lumber industry.  There was some sizeable timber operations at Fivay, Centralia and all over the Green Swamp (this is naming just a couple out of dozens) which are all largely now defunct.  I'm actually surprised that phosphate mining has managed to hand in there to the scale it is currently at. 

[kernals12]

All I'm trying to say to you is that not every area is willing to accept things that area another might.  You're the one that is naive enough not understand why some people not want things like more logging.

The rural south would like to have a word with you. 



Seriously: I read re the current lumber shortage that there's plenty of timber in the south, but not enough sawmills for the south to make up the shortfall right away. But with a major new source of demand, that could change to some extent.

There's also the rest of the world. Unfortunately, the likes of Bolsonaro would love this, most likely.

But even in states like Florida there has a been a huge decline in the lumber industry.  There was some sizeable timber operations at Fivay, Centralia and all over the Green Swamp (this is naming just a couple out of dozens) which are all largely now defunct.  I'm actually surprised that phosphate mining has managed to hand in there to the scale it is currently at.

Is this decline in the timber industry due to environmentalists or the massive decline in homebuilding (particularly in Florida) since 2008?

[Max Rockatansky]

All I'm trying to say to you is that not every area is willing to accept things that area another might.  You're the one that is naive enough not understand why some people not want things like more logging.

The rural south would like to have a word with you. 



Seriously: I read re the current lumber shortage that there's plenty of timber in the south, but not enough sawmills for the south to make up the shortfall right away. But with a major new source of demand, that could change to some extent.

There's also the rest of the world. Unfortunately, the likes of Bolsonaro would love this, most likely.

But even in states like Florida there has a been a huge decline in the lumber industry.  There was some sizeable timber operations at Fivay, Centralia and all over the Green Swamp (this is naming just a couple out of dozens) which are all largely now defunct.  I'm actually surprised that phosphate mining has managed to hand in there to the scale it is currently at.

Is this decline in the timber industry due to environmentalists or the massive decline in homebuilding (particularly in Florida) since 2008?

No, largely it just ran it's course historically by the mid-20th century and became unprofitable.  The areas were largely later put under some form of environmental protection as the 20th Century progressed.  A big example would be Withlacoochee State Forest which was once a major center of logging and phosphate mining in the Green Swamp.  The Chassahowitzka Wildlife Management Area is another example of an area (Centrailia) which had been logged extensively but is now protected. 

[formulanone]

...or the massive decline in homebuilding (particularly in Florida) since 2008?

Please define "massive" and use statistics to back this up in regards to a increase/decline in home building within the Sunshine State. The housing market cooled a little bit at that time (as did nearly everywhere else), but ramped back up to pre-2008 levels as supply (rather than overall demand) declined. And that is also dependent on the area; places like Lehigh Acres and Port St. Lucie were the poster children for "popped housing market bubble in Florida", because they're ginormous rural tracts which attempted to be the Next Big Suburb without a corresponding city to hitch its economy onto. Which meant more affordable housing if you liked to commute 60-90 minutes away, but lacking much of anything else (containing no historic rural charm, remote privacy, nor the trappings of a bigger city, et al).

Also, most homes in Florida use concrete/cinderblock construction, so less wood is used as an overall percentage of material in most new homes built in Florida since the 1990s, due to windstorm durability and protection, as per local building codes. So interior walls and roofs are still wooden, but exterior-facing walls and supports are not.

There are probably more environmentally-preserved green spaces in Florida than the entire area of Massachusetts, but much of Florida was developed much later, at an essentially steady rate with some focus on preservation (though likely mostly due to the vast spaces being unfit/unfeasible for future development and capture of developer tax breaks).   

[Max Rockatansky]

...or the massive decline in homebuilding (particularly in Florida) since 2008?

Please define "massive" and use statistics to back this up in regards to a increase/decline in home building within the Sunshine State. The housing market cooled a little bit at that time (as did nearly everywhere else), but ramped back up to pre-2008 levels as supply (rather than overall demand) declined. And that is also dependent on the area; places like Lehigh Acres and Port St. Lucie were the poster children for "popped housing market bubble in Florida", because they're ginormous rural tracts which attempted to be the Next Big Suburb without a corresponding city to hitch its economy onto. Which meant more affordable housing you liked to commute 60-90 minutes away, but lacking much of anything else (containing no historic rural charm nor the trappings of a bigger city, et al).

Also, most homes in Florida use concrete/cinderblock construction, so less wood is used as an overall percentage of material in most new homes built in Florida since the 1990s, due to windstorm durability and protection, as per local building codes. So interior walls and roofs are still wooden, exterior-facing walls and supports are not.

There are probably more environmentally-preserved green spaces in Florida than the entire area of Massachusetts, but much of Florida is developed much later, at an essentially steady rate with some focus on preservation (though likely mostly due to the vast spaces being unfit/unfeasible for future development and capture of developer tax breaks).

Notably some of the most well known structures in Florida such as Disney World were built upon land which was considered poor for habitation.  Granted the consumption of the Green Swamp by developers was a large reason why Withlacoochee State Forest was created in 1958.  There was a similar pattern of aggressive development earlier in the 20th Century that led to the creation of Everglades National Park.  If anything the State of Florida has done a better job at in-filling areas outside of protected areas rather than continuing to sprawl out.  The Miami-Fort Lauderdale Metro Area always was something I found intriguing given it essentially backs up to the canals that were built at the edge of the Everglades in the early 20th Century. 

It is also worth noting that coastal development in Florida is even more strict than structures inland.  Monroe County comes to mind given, when I lived there any new construction of a permanent residential property required a 14 foot stilt.  As you stated the principle building materials were hurricane resistant concrete and cinder block.  Anything wooden essentially was nothing more than facade for the exterior/interior. 

[bwana39]

I agree it is a great idea, but actually growing enough timber to pull this off is going to be nearly if not impossible. It is however a great concept.