Random Thoughts

[Max Rockatansky]

What would the male equivalent to "Miss" even be? 

Master for a minor male.

So...master of your domain?

[LilianaUwU]

"Lady" gives me gender euphoria.

[elsmere241]

I remember in fifth grade, the faculty list at my school was uniformly "Mr." or "Ms."

In my correspondence at work, I'll use "Ms." if I'm not sure, "Mrs." as in "Mr. and Mrs.", or for a known widow, and never "Miss".

Then there was the time my supervisor and I were swapping emails with a US Senator's wife (it was about their property boundaries).  He kept calling her by her first name, and after a few rounds of that, I advised him against that.  (He was much more open with calling people by first names than I ever had been.)

[kphoger]

"Lady" gives me gender euphoria.

Or does it satisfy your delusion of grandeur?  Your eminence, may I introduce Lady Liliana of Québec.

My, my, the honor we gave Crash_It by calling him 'Lord'...

Then there was the time my supervisor and I were swapping emails with a US Senator's wife (it was about their property boundaries).  He kept calling her by her first name, and after a few rounds of that, I advised him against that.  (He was much more open with calling people by first names than I ever had been.)

I'm part of that generation that straddles the line between calling people 'Mr.' or 'Mrss' and calling them by their first name.  First names feel awkward to me, but plenty of other people my age actually prefer it.

I'd never have even entertained the thought of calling one of my teachers by their first name, even if I knew them outside of school as well:  my family could be having dinner with them at their house, and I'd still address him as 'Mr. ____'.  One of my community college teachers in the early 2000s told us we could call him by his first name, and I sneered at it as a pathetic attempt for him to appear chummy with his students.  Nowadays, half the teachers I know go by their first name—especially the ones my age or younger.

Likewise, I can't remember anyone when I was a kid referring to my dad as 'Pastor {first name}'.  It was always 'Pastor Hoger', and mail was always addressed to 'The Rev. {first name} {middle initial} Hoger'.  But nowadays, all three of the pastors on staff at my church go by their first name, including the one who is my parents' age.  I still address e-mails to them as 'Rev. _____' anyway.

But what just strikes me as completely wrong is the way a LOT of adults have kids under their care address them nowadays:  'Mister Kyle' or 'Miss Carrie'.  It should be honorific plus last name, or first name alone.  And, when my wife has the kids in her daycare call her 'Miss Carrie', I occasionally ask her if she's pretending to not be married to me anymore...

[1995hoo]

When I was in first grade, I spent half of each school day in the second-grade classroom because I was at a more advanced reading and writing level than the first grade could accommodate. The second-grade teacher was Miss Graham, although we almost all pronounced "Miss" more like "Miz" (and the form "Ms." was pretty much unknown).

The following year, I was assigned to her second grade class (and spent half the day in the third-grade classroom), but that year she was Mrs. Burd after she got married over the summer.

I remember in the late 1980s when my mother took a job teaching at a then-new school, they made up name tags for the teachers and they put her name as "Ms." She's always used "Mrs.," so it seemed exceptionally weird.

My wife and I use "Miss" on the envelopes when we send birthday or Christmas cards to our nieces; we also used "Master" on the envelopes to our nephews until they hit age 13.

[Max Rockatansky]

Lord of the Carhorn as Crash_It may have been I have no doubts he also wasn't master of his domain.

[kphoger]

I wonder how many people are clueless right now because they're not familiar with Seinfeld...

[1995hoo]

....

But what just strikes me as completely wrong is the way a LOT of adults have kids under their care address them nowadays:  'Mister Kyle' or 'Miss Carrie'.  It should be honorific plus last name, or first name alone.  And, when my wife has the kids in her daycare call her 'Miss Carrie', I occasionally ask her if she's pretending to not be married to me anymore...

I've never liked that form. And there used to be a lady down the block who told her kids to address other adults on the block that way, which then presented me with the conundrum of how to tell them not to address me that way. (I suppose I should recognize that because of what my last name is, some people are uncomfortable with addressing me as "Mr." and then my last name. But I've heard all the jokes for 50+ years, so they may as well get over it.)

From what I understand, though, the "Mr./Miss/Miz [first name]" form was traditionally very common among black people (although our former neighbor is white). I have no idea where it originated, though I have some guesses.

....

Likewise, I can't remember anyone when I was a kid referring to my dad as 'Pastor {first name}'.  It was always 'Pastor Hoger', and mail was always addressed to 'The Rev. {first name} {middle initial} Hoger'.  But nowadays, all three of the pastors on staff at my church go by their first name, including the one who is my parents' age.  I still address e-mails to them as 'Rev. _____' anyway.

....

I've known several priests who were referred to as "Fr. [first name]." In at least one case, it was because people didn't know how to pronounce his last name (Irace) so they called him "Fr. Dominic." The church bulletin even referred to him that way in listing the following weekend's Mass schedule.

[hotdogPi]

I wonder how many people are clueless right now because they're not familiar with Seinfeld...

I'm not familiar with Seinfeld, but I am aware.

[kphoger]

And there used to be a lady down the block who told her kids to address other adults on the block that way, which then presented me with the conundrum of how to tell them not to address me that way.

IMHO, you should respect the parents and just swallow your own dislike of the form.

[1995hoo]

And there used to be a lady down the block who told her kids to address other adults on the block that way, which then presented me with the conundrum of how to tell them not to address me that way.

IMHO, you should respect the parents and just swallow your own dislike of the form.

Thankfully, around the time when their kids grew old enough for it to become a potential issue, they moved to a different neighborhood nearby because they needed more space. Problem solved.

[Dirt Roads]

Then there was the time my supervisor and I were swapping emails with a US Senator's wife (it was about their property boundaries).  He kept calling her by her first name, and after a few rounds of that, I advised him against that.  (He was much more open with calling people by first names than I ever had been.)

There's a funny story here in North Carolina about the younger sister of a former governor and U.S. Senator.  Their father was a state senator as was another brother (who was perhaps the most important politician in the trio).  She got so frustrated about the need to address mail to her father and two brothers with the title "The Honorable" that she addressed ever piece of mail to anybody starting with the term "The Honorable" fully written out.  Somewhere along the line, I got a birthday card from her (before I knew about this story) and proceeded to correct her when we next met...

I'm part of that generation that straddles the line between calling people 'Mr.' or 'Mrss' and calling them by their first name.  First names feel awkward to me, but plenty of other people my age actually prefer it.

I'd never have even entertained the thought of calling one of my teachers by their first name, even if I knew them outside of school as well:  my family could be having dinner with them at their house, and I'd still address him as 'Mr. ____'.  One of my community college teachers in the early 2000s told us we could call him by his first name, and I sneered at it as a pathetic attempt for him to appear chummy with his students.  Nowadays, half the teachers I know go by their first name—especially the ones my age or younger.

Likewise, I can't remember anyone when I was a kid referring to my dad as 'Pastor {first name}'.  It was always 'Pastor Hoger', and mail was always addressed to 'The Rev. {first name} {middle initial} Hoger'.  But nowadays, all three of the pastors on staff at my church go by their first name, including the one who is my parents' age.  I still address e-mails to them as 'Rev. _____' anyway.

Both of my parents are from a part of West Virginia where it is considered absolutely abhorrent to refer to anyone by title, except when you are in school (or you are in the military) actively addressing your superior.  This applied to everyone, doctors and pastors included (although you coulda/shoulda refer to them as "the doctor" or "the pastor/the preacherman").  Asbestos (actually spelt "as bestest") I kin tell, these chere folks felt that people who wanted a title were "above their raisin's" or "were too biggity fer their breeches".

...All of which became too funny for words when I tried to correct this lady for giving me an "improper title" on a birthday card.

[1995hoo]

There's a funny story here in North Carolina about the younger sister of a former governor and U.S. Senator.  Their father was a state senator as was another brother (who was perhaps the most important politician in the trio).  She got so frustrated about the need to address mail to her father and two brothers with the title "The Honorable" that she addressed ever piece of mail to anybody starting with the term "The Honorable" fully written out.  Somewhere along the line, I got a birthday card from her (before I knew about this story) and proceeded to correct her when we next met...

....

My late father used to get business mail addressed to him as "Hon. [name]." He always got a kick out of the time his office got a call from some lady who apparently didn't know what "Hon." was, thought it was his name, and sounded it out. She asked to speak to "Han [our last name]" ("Han" as in Han Solo).

[hotdogPi]

There's a funny story here in North Carolina about the younger sister of a former governor and U.S. Senator.  Their father was a state senator as was another brother (who was perhaps the most important politician in the trio).  She got so frustrated about the need to address mail to her father and two brothers with the title "The Honorable" that she addressed ever piece of mail to anybody starting with the term "The Honorable" fully written out.  Somewhere along the line, I got a birthday card from her (before I knew about this story) and proceeded to correct her when we next met...

....

My late father used to get business mail addressed to him as "Hon. [name]." He always got a kick out of the time his office got a call from some lady who apparently didn't know what "Hon." was, thought it was his name, and sounded it out. She asked to speak to "Han [our last name]" ("Han" as in Han Solo).

I've never seen this myself. How is it supposed to be pronounced?

[1995hoo]

There's a funny story here in North Carolina about the younger sister of a former governor and U.S. Senator.  Their father was a state senator as was another brother (who was perhaps the most important politician in the trio).  She got so frustrated about the need to address mail to her father and two brothers with the title "The Honorable" that she addressed ever piece of mail to anybody starting with the term "The Honorable" fully written out.  Somewhere along the line, I got a birthday card from her (before I knew about this story) and proceeded to correct her when we next met...

....

My late father used to get business mail addressed to him as "Hon. [name]." He always got a kick out of the time his office got a call from some lady who apparently didn't know what "Hon." was, thought it was his name, and sounded it out. She asked to speak to "Han [our last name]" ("Han" as in Han Solo).

I've never seen this myself. How is it supposed to be pronounced?

It's the traditional abbreviation for "Honorable." You might see that sort of thing in an event program, for example, listing the keynote speaker as, say, "Hon. John G. Roberts Jr.," with his title (Chief Justice of the United States) underneath his name. But if you were addressing him, you'd address him either as "Mr. Chief Justice" or as "Chief Justice Roberts," not as "Hon. Roberts."

My father was never really sure why some people put "Hon." before his name.

[kphoger]

I've never seen this myself. How is it supposed to be pronounced?

/ðiː ˈɑː.nɚ.ə.bəl/

[kernals12]

I think the reason why the "Ms." honorific caught on was not just that having different honorifics for women based on their marital status but nothing of the sort for men was sexist but also to avoid the embarrassment of using the wrong one (i.e. calling a married woman "miss" or vice versa).

My first exposure to "Ms." was clear back in first grade, in the mid-1980s.  And my impression from back was that women who used "Ms." simply did not want to tell people their marital status, or perhaps it was complicated.  In the case of my first grade teacher, I think she may have been married and then divorced but no longer considered herself to fit into the "Miss" category.

I think it has so widely caught on because it allows the rest of us to use it without knowing (or even caring about) the lady's marital status.  Just use "Ms." by default, and the lady will hardly ever even correct you.

All the way back in 1901, the Springfield Republican had an article advocating for "ms.". Their reasoning had nothing to do with gender equality and was entirely based around convenience

In 1984, Columnist William Safire gave in on the use of "Ms" because he felt that referring to VP Candidate Geraldine Ferraro as "Mrs. Ferraro" was dishonest, combining a married honorific with a maiden name.

English is unique for creating a new honorific to cover all women. Most languages just folded in unmarried women into what had been the honorific for married women (Fraulein became Frau in German, Mademoiselle became Madame in French, and Señorita became Señora in Spanish).

[kphoger]

having different honorifics for women based on their marital status but nothing of the sort for men was sexist

gender equality

I don't think anyone on here has said anything about gender equality or sexism being the reason for 'Ms.'

Who is claiming that?

[hotdogPi]

having different honorifics for women based on their marital status but nothing of the sort for men was sexist

gender equality

I don't think anyone on here has said anything about gender equality or sexism being the reason for 'Ms.'

Who is claiming that?

kernals12 is making the claim himself (not quoting someone else) that it's an attempt to reduce sexism.

[1995hoo]

having different honorifics for women based on their marital status but nothing of the sort for men was sexist

gender equality

I don't think anyone on here has said anything about gender equality or sexism being the reason for 'Ms.'

Who is claiming that?

kernals12 is making the claim himself (not quoting someone else) that it's an attempt to reduce sexism.

To be fair to kernals12, I've heard things of that sort for many years, going back to the 1980s when I first saw the form "Ms." Feminists, in particular, embraced that form because they said it was unfair that the male form of address, "Mr.," doesn't say anything about your marital status while the then-prevailing only two female forms, "Mrs." and "Miss," were expressly based on marital status. Some women also didn't like "Mrs." because it is traditionally used with the husband's name. That is, the former First Lady is properly "Mrs. George W. Bush," not "Mrs. Laura Bush."

I can certainly see why someone would perceive it as a double standard and say the traditional "Mrs." and "Miss" were sexist when compared to "Mr."

[GaryV]

I forget what character it was, but he always pronounced it 'M S [lastname]', saying the letters rather than 'mizz'.

As for honorifics, I've been a volunteer with FIRST Robotics for nearly 2 decades now. A while back, an alumni of a team addressed me as 'Mr. V____'. I said, "Andrew, you graduated. My name is 'Gary'." He didn't call me anything after that.

[Scott5114]

But then why do you not accept the fact that this problem was solved with the 20th-century revival of the 16th-century title "Ms."? It is an abbreviation of the honorific "Mistress," which was the respectable equivalent of "Mister," to be used regardless of marital status. "Ms." long predates the more restrictive abbreviations "Mrs." and "Miss."

[kphoger]

But then why do you not accept the fact that this problem was solved with the 20th-century revival of the 16th-century title "Ms."? It is an abbreviation of the honorific "Mistress," which was the respectable equivalent of "Mister," to be used regardless of marital status. "Ms." long predates the more restrictive abbreviations "Mrs." and "Miss."

Of course, 'Miss' and "Mrs." also are abbreviations of "Mistress"...

[Scott5114]

But then why do you not accept the fact that this problem was solved with the 20th-century revival of the 16th-century title "Ms."? It is an abbreviation of the honorific "Mistress," which was the respectable equivalent of "Mister," to be used regardless of marital status. "Ms." long predates the more restrictive abbreviations "Mrs." and "Miss."

Of course, 'Miss' and "Mrs." also are abbreviations of "Mistress"...

Indeed. But what Miss Manners is arguing is that the three all date from the same 16th-century title, but Miss and Mrs. have more restrictive uses. So of the three "Ms." has the most utility, and can be especially useful to circumvent situations where someone might be inadvertently impolite, so she consistently advocates for its use. The only real argument against using it is that "Mrs." and "Miss" are more "traditional", but "Ms." is actually even more traditional than they are, since it more accurately reflects the usage of the unabbreviated title "Mistress".

My only question for Miss Manners on this topic is why she hasn't renamed her column "Ms. Manners".

[SEWIGuy]

But what just strikes me as completely wrong is the way a LOT of adults have kids under their care address them nowadays:  'Mister Kyle' or 'Miss Carrie'.  It should be honorific plus last name, or first name alone.  And, when my wife has the kids in her daycare call her 'Miss Carrie', I occasionally ask her if she's pretending to not be married to me anymore...

I think it's just a way for people to be more casual while still implying respect.

The neighbor kid calls me "Mr. John."