Unpopular Opinions (sports edition)

[Max Rockatansky]

Perhaps we should adopt the old East German school structure where athletes are trained and groomed to solely be athletes, rather than continue with this facade of giving athletes a formal education in some other field.

I'm fine with students also being athletes.  Just so long as their school athletics don't interfere with their actual studies.  If they'd rather play games than go to class, then why are they in school?

I'm honestly surprised to hear you of all people advocating for education above all.  I guess maybe that I didn't consider the angle that you value it because of your kids?

[NWI_Irish96]

College sports scholarships shouldn't exist.

High school teachers shouldn't have to arrange their teaching schedules with sports in mind, nor should they have to make exceptions for students who miss class for sports events.

School is for learning.  Sports are just games to play in your spare time.

Hm.  Perhaps we should adopt the old East German school structure where athletes are trained and groomed to solely be athletes, rather than continue with this facade of giving athletes a formal education in some other field.

Right now, football players can't go pro until 3 years post-HS and basketball not for 1 year. We need some system for those players to play in until then, and college is as good as any. Plus, lots of kids who don't end up going pro end up with a college degree they likely wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

Now, I am wholly in favor of getting rid of high school sports and going to the European club model. There's no reason for billions of tax dollars per year going to building and maintaining football stadiums and basketball arenas.

[kphoger]

I'm honestly surprised to hear you of all people advocating for education above all.  I guess maybe that I didn't consider the angle that you value it because of your kids?

Well, "above all" stretches my sentiment too far.  But did you assume that our kids are homeschooled because we don't value education?  If so, then that's a strange assumption to make.  Most homeschool parents I've known take education pretty seriously, and that's why they decided to take a more active role in their children's education.

[Max Rockatansky]

I'm honestly surprised to hear you of all people advocating for education above all.  I guess maybe that I didn't consider the angle that you value it because of your kids?

Well, "above all" stretches my sentiment too far.  But did you assume that our kids are homeschooled because we don't value education?  If so, then that's a strange assumption to make.  Most homeschool parents I've known take education pretty seriously, and that's why they decided to take a more active role in their children's education.

My wife's own adjacent family has some really bad examples of homeschooling.  So no, I don't think that day to day I see that often painted in a positive light.
 
I was thinking along the lines of that you haven't graduated from a major year university (like me).  This hobby tends to have a lot college centric people or at least those with four year degrees who value higher education greatly. 

[kphoger]

I was thinking along the lines of that you haven't graduated from a major year university (like me).  This hobby tends to have a lot college centric people or at least those with four year degrees who value higher education greatly. 

Ah.  I don't have a bachelor's degree because I slacked off in college, and because I don't have a lot of drive and motivation—not because I don't value education.

[Max Rockatansky]

I was thinking along the lines of that you haven't graduated from a major year university (like me).  This hobby tends to have a lot college centric people or at least those with four year degrees who value higher education greatly. 

Ah.  I don't have a bachelor's degree because I slacked off in college, and because I don't have a lot of drive and motivation—not because I don't value education.

My issue was burnout.  I had a 4.00 GPA but keeping an actual life going between full time school and salary wasn't going to pan out.  Fortunately in what I do at this point I don't think finishing my degree would make a difference.

[Scott5114]

College sports scholarships shouldn't exist.

High school teachers shouldn't have to arrange their teaching schedules with sports in mind, nor should they have to make exceptions for students who miss class for sports events.

School is for learning.  Sports are just games to play in your spare time.

I would go farther and say the government shouldn't be in the business of running sports at all. That should all be run by some third party organization.

This would have the benefit of making all of the culture-war questions involving sports no longer a public policy question. If you do/don't want trans people in your sports league, just join the one that does/doesn't allow them.

[kphoger]

I would go farther and say the government shouldn't be in the business of running sports at all.

Except I also believe it about private schools too.

[JayhawkCO]

I would go farther and say the government shouldn't be in the business of running sports at all.

Except I also believe it about private schools too.

Not a fan of vouchers?

[Scott5114]

I would go farther and say the government shouldn't be in the business of running sports at all.

Except I also believe it about private schools too.

I would agree with that. But if someone really wants to waste their own money on a combination school/sports team then I'm not really sure we should legally prevent them from doing that. (I guess my ideal outcome would be would be any graduate of that school having every job interview they went to end with the hiring manager going "Oh, you went to Santa Mochila Academy? Isn't that the one that's also a sports team? What are you gonna do if I hire you, spend all your time making free throws? Like this one?" then wadding their resume up and throwing it in the trash can while chortling.)

[kphoger]

But if someone really wants to waste their own money on a combination school/sports team then I'm not really sure we should legally prevent them from doing that.

To be clear, I wasn't talking about it being illegal for schools to have sports teams.  I just think they shouldn't.  It's just my opinion.

Not a fan of vouchers?

I don't know enough about vouchers to have an informed opinion.  I'm friends with people who know a lot more about them than I do, but I've never really looked into the issue for more than maybe a half-hour one time.  But, if it's like anything else, then I'd probably end up having mixed thoughts about them.

[Max Rockatansky]

I would go farther and say the government shouldn't be in the business of running sports at all.

Except I also believe it about private schools too.

I would agree with that. But if someone really wants to waste their own money on a combination school/sports team then I'm not really sure we should legally prevent them from doing that. (I guess my ideal outcome would be would be any graduate of that school having every job interview they went to end with the hiring manager going "Oh, you went to Santa Mochila Academy? Isn't that the one that's also a sports team? What are you gonna do if I hire you, spend all your time making free throws? Like this one?" then wadding their resume up and throwing it in the trash can while chortling.)

There is something to be said for being physically healthy actually does help cope with mental stress.  I can't even begin to count the amount of times I used runs or even going to the gym as a way to blow off stress after something bad happened at work.  I much rather teach a kid how basic fitness works versus some of the other stuff they learn that has almost day-to-day applications.

But then again, I don't have kids so I guess it really doesn't matter what my opinion is.  Although I did encourage my niece to sign up for sports when my wife and I had custody.  She kept up with soccer through her junior year in high school.  She's the most well balanced and probably best prepared for adult life out of the four nieces on my wife's side.  Only one of the other three plays any kind of sports.

[kphoger]

There is something to be said for being physically healthy actually does help cope with mental stress.

Agreed...

I can't even begin to count the amount of times I used runs or even going to the gym as a way to blow off stress after something bad happened at work.

I don't doubt it...

I much rather teach a kid how basic fitness works versus some of the other stuff they learn that has almost [no] day-to-day applications.

Sure.  I just don't think school is the place for that.

But then again, I don't have kids so I guess it really doesn't matter what my opinion is.

If you had kids, then by all means you should "teach [your] kid how basic fitness works".  More power to you.  Enroll them in programs at the Y.  Buy them bicycles and teach them basic bike maintenance.  Get them a set of weights.  Go for regular neighborhood walks or jogs with them.  Teach them basketball and play one-on-one half court with them.  Cool, awesome, way to go.  But none of that has anything to do with school.

[Scott5114]

There is something to be said for being physically healthy actually does help cope with mental stress.  I can't even begin to count the amount of times I used runs or even going to the gym as a way to blow off stress after something bad happened at work.  I much rather teach a kid how basic fitness works versus some of the other stuff they learn that has almost day-to-day applications.

Well, sure. But that's not what sports (or even P.E. as it's actually taught) is.

I think there's plenty of room for schools to teach things like "here are the major muscle groups and safe ways to exercise them", "this is how you establish a cardio routine" and "this is how your diet affects your body". But instead PE is mostly "how about you run for 45 minutes while the coach scrolls on his phone and the other kids make fun of you".

[Max Rockatansky]

There is something to be said for being physically healthy actually does help cope with mental stress.

Agreed...

I can't even begin to count the amount of times I used runs or even going to the gym as a way to blow off stress after something bad happened at work.

I don't doubt it...

I much rather teach a kid how basic fitness works versus some of the other stuff they learn that has almost [no] day-to-day applications.

Sure.  I just don't think school is the place for that.

But then again, I don't have kids so I guess it really doesn't matter what my opinion is.

If you had kids, then by all means you should "teach [your] kid how basic fitness works".  More power to you.  Enroll them in programs at the Y.  Buy them bicycles and teach them basic bike maintenance.  Get them a set of weights.  Go for regular neighborhood walks or jogs with them.  Teach them basketball and play one-on-one half court with them.  Cool, awesome, way to go.  But none of that has anything to do with school.

Is not the purpose of school to teach someone young how to function in adult life?  Being able to maintain your physical health certainly seems pretty important to me.  That's something I see as education with potential substantial value.

[Max Rockatansky]

There is something to be said for being physically healthy actually does help cope with mental stress.  I can't even begin to count the amount of times I used runs or even going to the gym as a way to blow off stress after something bad happened at work.  I much rather teach a kid how basic fitness works versus some of the other stuff they learn that has almost day-to-day applications.

Well, sure. But that's not what sports (or even P.E. as it's actually taught) is.

I think there's plenty of room for schools to teach things like "here are the major muscle groups and safe ways to exercise them", "this is how you establish a cardio routine" and "this is how your diet affects your body". But instead PE is mostly "how about you run for 45 minutes while the coach scrolls on his phone and the other kids make fun of you".

I can't really think of anything I don't agree in what you said.  The basic PE I used to get in school never got close to teaching actual things like what you described.  I don't even really remember coaches in sports I played doing an adequate job with things like this.

[kphoger]

Is not the purpose of school to teach someone young how to function in adult life?

In my unpopular opinion, no.  In my unpopular opinion, the purpose of school is to teach academic knowledge and critical thinking.  Also, in my unpopular opinion, the purpose of school is not developing social skills, nor indoctrinating with societal values, nor instilling patriotism, nor acting as a daycare, nor exposing to diversity, nor providing role models, nor any of the many additional roles—whether good or bad—that the school system has shouldered over the decades.  I'm not saying all of those things are bad, I'm just saying they aren't the purpose of school.  Online school is school.  Homeschooling is school.  Public schools are school.  Private schools are school.  When done well, they all teach academic knowledge and critical thinking.

[NWI_Irish96]

There is something to be said for being physically healthy actually does help cope with mental stress.  I can't even begin to count the amount of times I used runs or even going to the gym as a way to blow off stress after something bad happened at work.  I much rather teach a kid how basic fitness works versus some of the other stuff they learn that has almost day-to-day applications.

Well, sure. But that's not what sports (or even P.E. as it's actually taught) is.

I think there's plenty of room for schools to teach things like "here are the major muscle groups and safe ways to exercise them", "this is how you establish a cardio routine" and "this is how your diet affects your body". But instead PE is mostly "how about you run for 45 minutes while the coach scrolls on his phone and the other kids make fun of you".

I can't really think of anything I don't agree in what you said.  The basic PE I used to get in school never got close to teaching actual things like what you described.  I don't even really remember coaches in sports I played doing an adequate job with things like this.

P.E. should be both. It should be getting kids exercise and teaching them some common sports, especially today when kids exercise so little outside of P.E., but it should also get into the science of exercise. Still, this only requires a basic gymnasium and a few fields, not massive fieldhouses and stadiums.

[formulanone]

Is not the purpose of school to teach someone young how to function in adult life?

In my unpopular opinion, no.  In my unpopular opinion, the purpose of school is to teach academic knowledge and critical thinking.  Also, in my unpopular opinion, the purpose of school is not developing social skills, nor indoctrinating with societal values, nor instilling patriotism, nor acting as a daycare, nor exposing to diversity, nor providing role models, nor any of the many additional roles—whether good or bad—that the school system has shouldered over the decades.  I'm not saying all of those things are bad, I'm just saying they aren't the purpose of school.  Online school is school.  Homeschooling is school.  Public schools are school.  Private schools are school.  When done well, they all teach academic knowledge and critical thinking.

I think there's a difference between the perception of "indoctrination" and the perceived frictional results of our dealings with multiple individuals on a daily basis. A workplace may have requirements and goals for its employees but many concepts are also the result of the same types of workplace interactions. As an oblique example: whether to join the office football pool or hang out at the same eatery after school aren't educational nor workplace requirements but they're possibly a social part of the daily grind. How you're perceived socially isn't taught but that underpins a lot of enjoyment or disdain for those daily rituals.

Indoctrination implies those are daily lessons of those same pillars while they are usually just by-products of putting humans in the same space for periods of time to achieve goals. The school may have some vaguely specific touchpoints but overall, they're there to attempt get the best out of individuals while also by extension, preventing the worst future results from occurring. The problem is that schools leave a vast amount of middle ground under the bell curve which does not give much room for individual purpose. It seems that the better and best schools can try to accommodate different paths to success but many schools have limited resources (money, space, talent, time) to do so, and crystal balls are in short supply.

[kphoger]

I think there's a difference between the perception of "indoctrination" and the perceived frictional results of our dealings with multiple individuals on a daily basis. A workplace may have requirements and goals for its employees but many concepts are also the result of the same types of workplace interactions. As an oblique example: whether to join the office football pool or hang out at the same eatery after school aren't educational nor workplace requirements but they're possibly a social part of the daily grind. How you're perceived socially isn't taught but that underpins a lot of enjoyment or disdain for those daily rituals.

Indoctrination implies those are daily lessons of those same pillars while they are usually just by-products of putting humans in the same space for periods of time to achieve goals. The school may have some vaguely specific touchpoints but overall, they're there to attempt get the best out of individuals while also by extension, preventing the worst future results from occurring. The problem is that schools leave a vast amount of middle ground under the bell curve which does not give much room for individual purpose. It seems that the better and best schools can try to accommodate different paths to success but many schools have limited resources (money, space, talent, time) to do so, and crystal balls are in short supply.

Bear in mind that I attempted to use the word 'indoctrination' in a neutral sense.  At some level, all teaching is indoctrination, considering the root of the word literally means 'teaching'.  But, whether it's the 'woke left' wanting to use the public school system as a means to instill societal values of inclusion and affirmation, or whether it's the 'bible-thumping right' wanting to use it to instill conservative Christian societal values, I don't think school should be the means to either one.  Let the other institutions of society—family, religious community, whatever—wear that mantle.

[JayhawkCO]

Is not the purpose of school to teach someone young how to function in adult life?

In my unpopular opinion, no.  In my unpopular opinion, the purpose of school is to teach academic knowledge and critical thinking.  Also, in my unpopular opinion, the purpose of school is not developing social skills, nor indoctrinating with societal values, nor instilling patriotism, nor acting as a daycare, nor exposing to diversity, nor providing role models, nor any of the many additional roles—whether good or bad—that the school system has shouldered over the decades.  I'm not saying all of those things are bad, I'm just saying they aren't the purpose of school.  Online school is school.  Homeschooling is school.  Public schools are school.  Private schools are school.  When done well, they all teach academic knowledge and critical thinking.

I would argue that critical thinking and social skills go hand in hand. For instance, I kept my son home with me for the first 1.5 years of his life, since my job is remote and less time sensitive than a lot of other jobs. I had some nanny help on my days with more meetings, but otherwise it was a lot of just him and me. We don't have any family with kids nearby and very few neighbors with kids, so his interaction with other kiddos his age wasn't as much as a lot of kids grow up with.

Once we put him in day care, it was really interesting watching him learn how to interact with other kids. He had to navigate disagreements, kids not sharing, kids doing things that he knew was wrong (hitting, etc.), and a whole lot more. Essentially, he had to learn to be a human in society. I think that's incredibly beneficial, and continues throughout school years (and onwards). Since kids are spending a great proportion of their waking hours in school (whatever form that takes), it only makes sense that that great proportion of their time would also be spent in learning social skills. So, while I don't think it makes sense for the school to teach is as a large part of the curriculum, I do think it has a place in what you learn, formally and informally, at school.

[kphoger]

I would argue that critical thinking and social skills go hand in hand.

It can.  But not necessarily.  This forum, for example, has its share of people who have great critical thinking but poor social skills.  And I've met plenty of people who have fine social skills but are terrible at critical thinking.

For instance, I kept my son home with me for the first 1.5 years of his life, since my job is remote and less time sensitive than a lot of other jobs. I had some nanny help on my days with more meetings, but otherwise it was a lot of just him and me. We don't have any family with kids nearby and very few neighbors with kids, so his interaction with other kiddos his age wasn't as much as a lot of kids grow up with.

Once we put him in day care, it was really interesting watching him learn how to interact with other kids. He had to navigate disagreements, kids not sharing, kids doing things that he knew was wrong (hitting, etc.), and a whole lot more. Essentially, he had to learn to be a human in society. I think that's incredibly beneficial, and continues throughout school years (and onwards).

Yep, totally.  But I don't see what you've described as 'critical thinking'.  It's just social skills.

Since kids are spending a great proportion of their waking hours in school (whatever form that takes), it only makes sense that that great proportion of their time would also be spent in learning social skills. So, while I don't think it makes sense for the school to teach is as a large part of the curriculum, I do think it has a place in what you learn, formally and informally, at school.

I'm not suggesting that schools are teaching social skills as curriculum.  I'm just saying that I've heard people suggest that learning social skills is one of the chief purposes of kids going to public school.  These people tend to think we're depriving our children, by homeschooling them, of some necessary social molding or conformity.

[JayhawkCO]

I would argue that critical thinking and social skills go hand in hand.

It can.  But not necessarily.  This forum, for example, has its share of people who have great critical thinking but poor social skills.  And I've met plenty of people who have fine social skills but are terrible at critical thinking.

For instance, I kept my son home with me for the first 1.5 years of his life, since my job is remote and less time sensitive than a lot of other jobs. I had some nanny help on my days with more meetings, but otherwise it was a lot of just him and me. We don't have any family with kids nearby and very few neighbors with kids, so his interaction with other kiddos his age wasn't as much as a lot of kids grow up with.

Once we put him in day care, it was really interesting watching him learn how to interact with other kids. He had to navigate disagreements, kids not sharing, kids doing things that he knew was wrong (hitting, etc.), and a whole lot more. Essentially, he had to learn to be a human in society. I think that's incredibly beneficial, and continues throughout school years (and onwards).

Yep, totally.  But I don't see what you've described as 'critical thinking'.  It's just social skills.

Since kids are spending a great proportion of their waking hours in school (whatever form that takes), it only makes sense that that great proportion of their time would also be spent in learning social skills. So, while I don't think it makes sense for the school to teach is as a large part of the curriculum, I do think it has a place in what you learn, formally and informally, at school.

I'm not suggesting that schools are teaching social skills as curriculum.  I'm just saying that I've heard people suggest that learning social skills is one of the chief purposes of kids going to public school.  These people tend to think we're depriving our children, by homeschooling them, of some necessary social molding or conformity.

Critical thinking is also analyzing what people say and do to determine its credibility. Getting a lot of constant exposure to that in the verbal/non-verbal form vs. the written word I think is important. I certainly don't think you're depriving your children by having them be homeschooled re: socialization or conformity or anything like that. There might be a time when your kids feel badly they missed prom or something similar, but that's a different conversation altogether.

[kphoger]

There might be a time when your kids feel badly they missed prom or something similar, but that's a different conversation altogether.

For what it's worth, our eldest son wishes we had sent him to regular school, and our middle son is glad that we didn't. 

(Oh, and for what it's worth, my prom was a complete waste of time when I went my junior year—other than, perhaps, learning to play blackjack at the after-prom party at the bowling alley.  My 'date' just used me as an excuse to get in the door and then go drinking with her friends.)

Critical thinking is also analyzing what people say and do to determine its credibility. Getting a lot of constant exposure to that in the verbal/non-verbal form vs. the written word I think is important.

Yes, it's hard to create an environment of debate and open discussion outside of a classroom setting.

[Max Rockatansky]

I didn't even bother with prom.  We moved so much when I was a kid that I had almost no connection to the kids I went to high school with.  The teachers kept saying I would regret not going, I never did.