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Author Topic: Proposed US 412 Upgrade  (Read 32316 times)

MikieTimT

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #250 on: September 21, 2021, 12:45:24 AM »

Been meaning to do this for a while, just now got around to it:


The midpoint of the line connecting Springdale and the western terminus of the proposed interstate would be about halfway between where a theoretical grid-perfect I-46 and I-48 intersect I-35. The actual western terminus of the proposed interstate would be just about at the I-48 mark. Therefore, I believe this interstate should be designated I-48.

But I-50 would be close too. :D

And since it's HPC 8 in 1991's ISTEA, it probably should be I-50.  It was originally envisioned to go east to Nashville although they just changed the western endpoint from Tulsa to I-35.  It'd be a cold day in Hades before any of US-412 west of I-35 gets bumped past a 2 lane.  It's pretty sparse out in that part of OK/NM.  Just drove it last week on on an indirect roadtrip with my brother to take his old 4Runner back up to Seattle from NWA.  Managed to skip both Kansas and Texas, although I couldn't pass up to the opportunity to take one step into Texas at the marker right off the edge of US-412.  My brother didn't have the same interest for some reason and was good with bypassing TX altogether.  Actually took several non-interstate routes on the trip, which made for a more scenic and relaxing vacation.
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Bobby5280

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #251 on: September 21, 2021, 12:39:32 PM »

Quote from: MikieTimT
And since it's HPC 8 in 1991's ISTEA, it probably should be I-50.

I strongly hope not. The designation would suck. Might as well call it "I-1" if egos will be allowed to run wild and loose for any minor, short distance Interstate route. The resulting route would be even shorter than I-30 and connect far less populated areas. Plus the route would be a very short distance from I-40. IMHO, I-46 and I-48 are the only sensible possible designations that won't end up looking really goofy on a map.

Among the few things that makes I-30 tolerable is it originates in one of the nation's biggest metros (DFW) and its ends are at I-20 and I-40. So it still manages to function as a major Interstate in the system. An "I-50" that merely runs from Springdale thru Tulsa to end in a desolate spot along I-35 would be a waste.

Quote from: MikieTimT
It'd be a cold day in Hades before any of US-412 west of I-35 gets bumped past a 2 lane.

US-412 is 4-lane divided from I-35 to Enid to nearly 20 miles West of Enid. And then there is a couple segments of 4-lane divided road going into Woodward.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2021, 10:05:33 PM by Bobby5280 »
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MikieTimT

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #252 on: September 21, 2021, 03:06:38 PM »

Quote from: MikieTimT
And since it's HPC 8 in 1991's ISTEA, it probably should be I-50.

I strongly hope not. The designation would suck. Might as well call it "I-1" if egos will be allowed to run wild and loose for any minor, short distance Interstate route. The resulting route would be even shorter than I-30 and connect far less populated areas. Plus the route would be a very short distance from I-40. IMHO, I-46 and I-48 are the only sensible possible designations that won't end up looking really goofy on a map.

Among the few things that makes I-30 tolerable is it originates in of the nation's biggest metros (DFW) and its ends are at I-20 and I-40. So it still manages to function as a major Interstate in the system. An "I-50" that merely runs from Springdale thru Tulsa to end in a desolate spot along I-35 would be a waste.

Quote from: MikieTimT
It'd be a cold day in Hades before any of US-412 west of I-35 gets bumped past a 2 lane.

US-412 is 4-lane divided from I-35 to Enid to nearly 20 miles West of Enid. And then there is a couple segments of 4-lane divided road going into Woodward.

And if Springdale/Lowell is where it ended, I'd agree, but was intended to go all the way to Nashville, which adds quite a bit of mileage.  That's not to say any of us will live long enough to see that come to fruit, but it was part of the original HPC designation.  The part from Tulsa to I-35 is what was added on a couple of months ago, so the corridor's original endpoints were at significant metros.  A centrally located E/W corridor with only I-70 to the north parallel for most of the route that ends in 2 *5 Interstates (with another intersecting) is greater than ending on 2 *0 Interstates.  Regardless, it's all fictional until a designation is codified in a resolution.  Quite frankly, other than pushing to Harrison, I think US-412 is functionally adequate at this time with the addition of some bypasses and about 3-5 more climb lanes.  I think an Interstate (or even 4-lane US 412) east of Harrison until the Mississippi River valley would ruin the character of North Central Arkansas and make it too accessible.  There's more to a state than its economy.  I'm sure I'm in the minority, though.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #253 on: September 21, 2021, 03:22:17 PM »

Just for shits and giggles if there was a coast to coast I-50 it would absolutely make sense that this segment be a part of it. I don’t see the issue of an I-50 designation. Not that I’d ever expect it to be a coast to coast interstate ever but hell draft up a fantasy plan of one that goes from the east cost and ends up following 491 to terminate in Monticello(UT) to another future interstate that should be extended(I-17). Then build the parts that could actually be justified in building. No reason to do it all at once now. Many other bigger priorities exist.

But in the grand scheme of things I don’t see the issue with I-50 even if it only exists between Tulsa and Springdale for the time being.
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CoreySamson

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #254 on: September 21, 2021, 03:50:21 PM »

Quote from: MikieTimT
And since it's HPC 8 in 1991's ISTEA, it probably should be I-50.

I strongly hope not. The designation would suck. Might as well call it "I-1" if egos will be allowed to run wild and loose for any minor, short distance Interstate route. The resulting route would be even shorter than I-30 and connect far less populated areas. Plus the route would be a very short distance from I-40. IMHO, I-46 and I-48 are the only sensible possible designations that won't end up looking really goofy on a map.

Among the few things that makes I-30 tolerable is it originates in of the nation's biggest metros (DFW) and its ends are at I-20 and I-40. So it still manages to function as a major Interstate in the system. An "I-50" that merely runs from Springdale thru Tulsa to end in a desolate spot along I-35 would be a waste.

Quote from: MikieTimT
It'd be a cold day in Hades before any of US-412 west of I-35 gets bumped past a 2 lane.

US-412 is 4-lane divided from I-35 to Enid to nearly 20 miles West of Enid. And then there is a couple segments of 4-lane divided road going into Woodward.
What if this potential I-50 extends towards Denver via Dodge City and Garden City like your Oklahoma City-Denver interstate idea you've floated around? I'd like to think that would be worthy of an x0.
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Scott5114

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #255 on: September 21, 2021, 03:52:19 PM »

The only portion of route that the infrastructure bill currently mandates as a future interstate is Perry to Springdale. Of course, if ODOT and ArDOT want to extend the interstate of their own volition, they theoretically could.

Quote from: MikieTimT
And since it's HPC 8 in 1991's ISTEA, it probably should be I-50.

I strongly hope not. The designation would suck. Might as well call it "I-1" if egos will be allowed to run wild and loose for any minor, short distance Interstate route. The resulting route would be even shorter than I-30 and connect far less populated areas. Plus the route would be a very short distance from I-40. IMHO, I-46 and I-48 are the only sensible possible designations that won't end up looking really goofy on a map.

I don't really object to the use of the I-50 designation—where else could it be used that would actually make sense and not conflict with US-50?—but do note that since the bill doesn't specify a number, AASHTO is free to approve or decline whatever number they wish. ArDOT and ODOT can apply with I-50 if they wish, and if AASHTO feels that's inappropriate they can change the number (as they did with I-42).

Among the few things that makes I-30 tolerable is it originates in of the nation's biggest metros (DFW) and its ends are at I-20 and I-40. So it still manages to function as a major Interstate in the system. An "I-50" that merely runs from Springdale thru Tulsa to end in a desolate spot along I-35 would be a waste.

The western terminus of Interstate Whatever is pretty close to Perry on I-35. I definitely wouldn't call it desolate. Nowhere near as desolate as, say, I-20's western terminus.

Quote from: MikieTimT
It'd be a cold day in Hades before any of US-412 west of I-35 gets bumped past a 2 lane.
US-412 is 4-lane divided from I-35 to Enid to nearly 20 miles West of Enid. And then there is a couple segments of 4-lane divided road going into Woodward.

You could upgrade Enid to Perry to be Interstate grade if you wanted to, but once you get into Enid things start to get complex. I'm not even sure where the best place to put an Enid bypass would be, since there's a bunch of rail infrastructure on the north side of town and on the south side you'd either have to thread the needle between development and Vance AFB or swing way south to pass south of the base. Neither of those are likely to be anything the USAF is super thrilled about.

I think it would be good to see the US-412 corridor between Enid and Boise City be upgraded to freeway at some point to tie into the I-27 corridor, as well as to make going down the panhandle slightly less miserable. But that's never going to happen without additional legislation like this infrastructure bill that makes it so.
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #256 on: September 21, 2021, 09:26:40 PM »

Could the airport and the Air Force base be relocated to accommodate an Enid bypass? I think the future Interstate corridor should terminate at Interstate 35 and not go any further west.
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MikieTimT

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #257 on: September 21, 2021, 09:33:42 PM »

Quote from: MikieTimT
And since it's HPC 8 in 1991's ISTEA, it probably should be I-50.

I strongly hope not. The designation would suck. Might as well call it "I-1" if egos will be allowed to run wild and loose for any minor, short distance Interstate route. The resulting route would be even shorter than I-30 and connect far less populated areas. Plus the route would be a very short distance from I-40. IMHO, I-46 and I-48 are the only sensible possible designations that won't end up looking really goofy on a map.

Among the few things that makes I-30 tolerable is it originates in of the nation's biggest metros (DFW) and its ends are at I-20 and I-40. So it still manages to function as a major Interstate in the system. An "I-50" that merely runs from Springdale thru Tulsa to end in a desolate spot along I-35 would be a waste.

Quote from: MikieTimT
It'd be a cold day in Hades before any of US-412 west of I-35 gets bumped past a 2 lane.

US-412 is 4-lane divided from I-35 to Enid to nearly 20 miles West of Enid. And then there is a couple segments of 4-lane divided road going into Woodward.
What if this potential I-50 extends towards Denver via Dodge City and Garden City like your Oklahoma City-Denver interstate idea you've floated around? I'd like to think that would be worthy of an x0.

I know I'd use it going to Colorado Springs/Denver or points west more than a little.  Wouldn't be very expensive terrain to build in either compared to some of the more mountainous/swampy stretches that many of the new terrain Interstates have/are being pushed through as of late.  If it ran further north toward Kit Carson along the US-287 corridor, then only the short stretch between Dodge City and Garden City would potentially conflict with a US-50 multiplex of an I-50.  Don't know how Kansas would handle having 2 Route 50's in their state.  Arkansas has long since gotten past that particular hangup, if we ever had it to begin with.
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Bobby5280

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #258 on: September 21, 2021, 10:46:00 PM »

Quote from: MikieTimT
And if Springdale/Lowell is where it ended, I'd agree, but was intended to go all the way to Nashville, which adds quite a bit of mileage.

I've seen "I-66" proposals that crossed Kentucky, Missouri and even parts of Kansas and New Mexico. I've seen propsals for upgrading US-412 across Arkansas in various manners, but usually no more than standard 4-lane divided rather than full Interstate quality. Such a corridor going clear to Nashville? I must have missed that HPC proposal.

Quote from: CoreySamson
What if this potential I-50 extends towards Denver via Dodge City and Garden City like your Oklahoma City-Denver interstate idea you've floated around? I'd like to think that would be worthy of an x0.

The route would look a little weird overall, a bit of a V-shape, with it having to take a fairly sharp bend going up into Kansas. If such a route were to go up to Dodge City the bend in Oklahoma would have to happen near Enid rather than Woodward. That would ruin quite a bit of the appeal of such a route for drivers coming from/thru the OKC area heading to Colorado. A direct route from Woodward to Garden City works better in that regard.

I think chances are between very slim to absolutely none the US-412 corridor would ever be upgraded fully to Interstate quality between Springdale and Walnut Ridge. But if such a thing were to happen, and I-555 was extended up to Walnut Ridge, that could be added to that fictional diagonal corridor up to Limon. That ultimate combo, an I-70 to I-40 route, would be more worthy of an I-50 designation.

Still, I think a designation as big as I-50 needs to cross at least 3 time zones or be as close to a coast-to-coast route as possible. Not too long ago I described one fictional I-50 idea that would go from Jacksonville, FL to Provo, UT. But that idea would consume I-22 and I-555. I would use US-60 across Southern Missouri (since chances are far better for US-60 to get an Interstate upgrade than US-412 in Northern Arkansas). From Joplin the route would go to Wichita and overlap US-50 a good distance thru Pueblo to Grand Junction, co-sign with I-70 to the US-6 split then go up to Provo to end at I-15. Can't see any realistic scenario for pushing the fictional route across Nevada into California.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 09:56:22 AM by Bobby5280 »
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Scott5114

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #259 on: September 22, 2021, 02:24:50 AM »

If it ran further north toward Kit Carson along the US-287 corridor, then only the short stretch between Dodge City and Garden City would potentially conflict with a US-50 multiplex of an I-50.  Don't know how Kansas would handle having 2 Route 50's in their state. 

They already have two K-8s, so I don't know that they'd mind so much. But the two are on opposite ends of the state (one is a short connector to OK-8, and the other is a short connector to the Nebraska border).

Could the airport and the Air Force base be relocated to accommodate an Enid bypass? I think the future Interstate corridor should terminate at Interstate 35 and not go any further west.

You know how expensive it would be to move a whole damn Air Force Base? I have a feeling it would be cheaper to just bypass it further out.
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Bobby5280

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #260 on: September 22, 2021, 10:57:43 AM »

Vance AFB isn't very big. Still, bypassing South of the AFB would put the alignment 5 miles South of current US-412. If tunnels weren't so freakish expensive to build it could be possible to build a freeway bypass along the North edge of Vance AFB near the main gates and tunnel under the runways nearby to come back above ground past Oakwood Road. Comparitively speaking it would probably be cheaper to buy ROW needed along or near Southgate Road in order to squeeze between the AFB and South side of Enid.

Some sort of Southern bypass of Enid would probably be preferable to going North around the town. The bulk of Enid is situated on North of US-412, which would make a bypass around the North side of Enid longer than a Southern bypass.
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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #261 on: September 22, 2021, 12:34:21 PM »

Could the airport and the Air Force base be relocated to accommodate an Enid bypass? I think the future Interstate corridor should terminate at Interstate 35 and not go any further west.

The government will close a base using BRAC before moving it unless someone with a lot of political power can stop it. This is especially true of small bases that can have their mission easily moved to another base. Training bases tend to be closed in every BRAC rotation. Getting a freeway in exchange for losing a base is not a deal most cities would accept.
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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #262 on: September 22, 2021, 01:16:42 PM »

Vance AFB isn't very big. Still, bypassing South of the AFB would put the alignment 5 miles South of current US-412. If tunnels weren't so freakish expensive to build it could be possible to build a freeway bypass along the North edge of Vance AFB near the main gates and tunnel under the runways nearby to come back above ground past Oakwood Road. Comparitively speaking it would probably be cheaper to buy ROW needed along or near Southgate Road in order to squeeze between the AFB and South side of Enid.

Some sort of Southern bypass of Enid would probably be preferable to going North around the town. The bulk of Enid is situated on North of US-412, which would make a bypass around the North side of Enid longer than a Southern bypass.

Honestly most of the traffic on US-412 is east of Enid.  There has been some traffic growth west of Enid due to the amount of fracking in the Cimarron River basin. But when he current US-412 was built in the 1970's (now Owen Garriott Drive) it wasn't to support a large urban bypass because the amount of traffic didn't warrant it. Enid was trying to get truck traffic out of downtown because the only way in was on Market Street with the curve up to Maine Street at NOU which was built in 1936.The "Shark Bridge" was a clearance problem. The city limits of Enid in the 70's didn't go past what was then Market Street until you got to S. 7th St, so the new road simply avoided downtown.

Enid has exploded on the west and northwest side of town (probably due to oil workers) but I dont think it justifies a bypass in and of itself.
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MikieTimT

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #263 on: September 22, 2021, 01:34:14 PM »

Quote from: MikieTimT
And if Springdale/Lowell is where it ended, I'd agree, but was intended to go all the way to Nashville, which adds quite a bit of mileage.

I've seen "I-66" proposals that crossed Kentucky, Missouri and even parts of Kansas and New Mexico. I've seen propsals for upgrading US-412 across Arkansas in various manners, but usually no more than standard 4-lane divided rather than full Interstate quality. Such a corridor going clear to Nashville? I must have missed that HPC proposal.

Quote from: CoreySamson
What if this potential I-50 extends towards Denver via Dodge City and Garden City like your Oklahoma City-Denver interstate idea you've floated around? I'd like to think that would be worthy of an x0.

The route would look a little weird overall, a bit of a V-shape, with it having to take a fairly sharp bend going up into Kansas. If such a route were to go up to Dodge City the bend in Oklahoma would have to happen near Enid rather than Woodward. That would ruin quite a bit of the appeal of such a route for drivers coming from/thru the OKC area heading to Colorado. A direct route from Woodward to Garden City works better in that regard.

I think chances are between very slim to absolutely none the US-412 corridor would ever be upgraded fully to Interstate quality between Springdale and Walnut Ridge. But if such a thing were to happen, and I-555 was extended up to Walnut Ridge, that could be added to that fictional diagonal corridor up to Limon. That ultimate combo, an I-70 to I-40 route, would be more worthy of an I-50 designation.

Still, I think a designation as big as I-50 needs to cross at least 3 time zones or be as close to a coast-to-coast route as possible. Not too long ago I described one fictional I-50 idea that would go from Jacksonville, FL to Provo, UT. But that idea would consume I-22 and I-555. I would use US-60 across Southern Missouri (since chances are far better for US-60 to get an Interstate upgrade than US-412 in Northern Arkansas). From Joplin the route would go to Wichita and overlap US-50 a good distance thru Pueblo to Grand Junction, co-sign with I-70 to the US-6 split then go up to Provo to end at I-15. Can't see any realistic scenario for pushing the fictional route across Nevada into California.

That's odd.  Almost every reference of ISTEA High Priority Corridor 8 I found online has it going into Tennessee, Nashville specifically. (Much to the chagrin of our resident US-412 Tennessee representative)

https://www.peaktraffic.org/corridors.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_priority_corridor
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/COMPS-1422/pdf/COMPS-1422.pdf (Pg. 68-71 of 158,
SEC.  1105.  HIGH  PRIORITY  CORRIDORS  ON  NATIONAL  HIGHWAY  SYSTEM,
  (c)  IDENTIFICATION OF HIGH PRIORITY CORRIDORS ON NATIONAL HIGHWAY SYSTEM.—The following are high priority corridors on the National Highway System:
      (8)  Highway  412  East-West  Corridor  from  Tulsa,  Oklahoma, through Arkansas along United States Route 62/63/65 to Nashville, Tennessee.)


And I-30 is only in 2 states, both within a single timezone, and is almost as much N-S as it is E-W.  It's one with a rather large amount of traffic, though.  Diagonals sure do mess with standards.


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MikieTimT

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #264 on: October 02, 2021, 10:11:34 AM »

Now that I-49 is complete in NWA, the western leg of the US-412 bypass (Future I-50?) can start to get focus to pull the traffic off US-412/AR-112 for traffic coming and going to northbound I-49.
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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #265 on: October 08, 2021, 06:53:06 AM »

They already have two K-8s, so I don't know that they'd mind so much. But the two are on opposite ends of the state (one is a short connector to OK-8, and the other is a short connector to the Nebraska border).

The two sections of Kansas 8 were once connected. Most of what is now US 281 was once K-8, which ran from the Nebraska line to US 36 along modern K-8, east on US 36, south on US 281, east on K-2 and south on modern K-8.
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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #266 on: October 27, 2021, 08:51:23 PM »

Now that I-49 is complete in NWA, the western leg of the US-412 bypass (Future I-50?) can start to get focus to pull the traffic off US-412/AR-112 for traffic coming and going to northbound I-49.

Nope. ARDOT has other plans.
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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #267 on: November 07, 2021, 10:05:34 PM »

From an email, the latest thing I've heard about the US-412 upgrade is that it's in the Environment and Public Works Committee of the U.S. Senate since May. Has anyone else heard anything new recently?

Does (or could) the (massive) infrastructure bill change any of that?
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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #268 on: November 07, 2021, 10:26:12 PM »

Inhofe, others push to make stretch of U.S. 412 an interstate



OKLAHOMA CITY — Federal legislation introduced Friday would designate U.S. 412 running through Oklahoma and Arkansas as a future interstate.

The measure would give the designation to the stretch of U.S. 412 from Interstate 35 in Noble County to Interstate 49 in Springdale, Arkansas.

The highway is known as the Sand Springs Expressway between Tulsa and Sand Springs and the Keystone Expressway west of Sand Springs.

The bill was introduced by U.S. Sens. Jim Inhofe, R-Okla., and John Boozman and Tom Cotton, both R-Ark.

“Our interstate system is the lifeblood of Oklahoma’s economy and provides the network for companies to bring materials into our critical industries, for businesses to locate in areas convenient for consumers, and for commuters to get to work and school safely and reliably,” Inhofe said.

“Designating Route 412 as an interstate would benefit Oklahoma by attracting new businesses, improving safety, enhancing freight mobility and better connecting rural and urban communities.”

While most major metropolitan areas across the nation have two or more interstate highways connecting their regions, the Tulsa metro area and the northwest Arkansas metropolitan area are both served by just one interstate highway each, Interstate 44 and Interstate 49, respectively.

“The designation would have a significant impact for Tulsa and all of northeast Oklahoma,” Tulsa Mayor G.T. Bynum said.

The interstate designation is needed to keep up with the growth of the area, proponents say.

The Oklahoma and Arkansas departments of transportation would have to fully upgrade the corridor to interstate standards, ODOT Director Tim Gatz and ADT Director Lorie Tudor wrote in a letter to Inhofe.

Both support the move, the letter says.

A significant portion of the route was designed and built to interstate standards, the letter says.

The proposal would connect three key interstate freight corridors in the heartland: Interstate 35, Interstate 44 and Interstate 49, Gatz and Tudor wrote.

“The existing US-412 route directly serves major inland ports, including the Tulsa Ports of Catoosa and Inola and Oakley’s Port 33 on the McClellan-Kerr Arkansas River Navigation System,” the letter says.

“An interstate designation on this route also improves access to the Tulsa International Airport and Northwest Arkansas Regional Airport, and will improve supply chain connectivity for major retail and industrial employers in the region, including Walmart, and numerous energy and aerospace companies.”

Terri Angier, an Oklahoma Department of Transportation spokeswoman, said the project has been talked about for a number of years.

She said the filing of the measure is a starting point.

Officials will need to determine the costs and which areas would need to be upgraded, Angier said.

More of U.S. 412 in Oklahoma than in Arkansas has already been upgraded because the Oklahoma portion includes two turnpikes — the Cimarron and the Cherokee, she said.

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #269 on: November 07, 2021, 10:37:04 PM »

From an email, the latest thing I've heard about the US-412 upgrade is that it's in the Environment and Public Works Committee of the U.S. Senate since May. Has anyone else heard anything new recently?

Does (or could) the (massive) infrastructure bill change any of that?

On October 6, 2021, The bill was read into the SURFACE TRANSPORTATION REAUTHORIZATION ACT OF 2021 and included in report 117-41

https://www.congress.gov/117/crpt/srpt41/CRPT-117srpt41.pdf

The biggest issue is that the Highway Trust Fund is severely underfunded. By 2023 it will be $23 Billion in the hole. So if they don't raise the federal fuels tax, the money will have to come out of the general fund via a grant.

On the House side it got rolled into the INVEST in America bill, but it has some clauses that aren't going over to well.

For example:

"directs DOT to establish a pilot program to demonstrate a national motor vehicle per-mile user fee to restore and maintain the long-term solvency of the Highway Trust Fund and achieve and maintain a state of good repair in the surface transportation system."
« Last Edit: November 07, 2021, 10:41:04 PM by edwaleni »
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Scott5114

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #270 on: November 07, 2021, 11:37:33 PM »

From an email, the latest thing I've heard about the US-412 upgrade is that it's in the Environment and Public Works Committee of the U.S. Senate since May. Has anyone else heard anything new recently?

Does (or could) the (massive) infrastructure bill change any of that?

Inhofe offered an amendment, which was passed, adding a copy of the US-412 upgrade language into the infrastructure bill when it was still in the Senate. Since that bill just passed the House, the only way it doesn't happen now is if Joe Biden says so, and the chances of that are virtually nil. (Inhofe then later voted against the bill that contained his amendment. Ah, politics.)

The standalone bill you've been tracking is now redundant and therefore probably won't make it out of committee, since there's no reason for further action on it.
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Road Hog

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #271 on: November 08, 2021, 01:40:29 AM »

From an email, the latest thing I've heard about the US-412 upgrade is that it's in the Environment and Public Works Committee of the U.S. Senate since May. Has anyone else heard anything new recently?

Does (or could) the (massive) infrastructure bill change any of that?

Inhofe offered an amendment, which was passed, adding a copy of the US-412 upgrade language into the infrastructure bill when it was still in the Senate. Since that bill just passed the House, the only way it doesn't happen now is if Joe Biden says so, and the chances of that are virtually nil. (Inhofe then later voted against the bill that contained his amendment. Ah, politics.)

The standalone bill you've been tracking is now redundant and therefore probably won't make it out of committee, since there's no reason for further action on it.
So Inhofe was for it before he was against it?
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sprjus4

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #272 on: November 08, 2021, 02:24:19 AM »

From an email, the latest thing I've heard about the US-412 upgrade is that it's in the Environment and Public Works Committee of the U.S. Senate since May. Has anyone else heard anything new recently?

Does (or could) the (massive) infrastructure bill change any of that?

Inhofe offered an amendment, which was passed, adding a copy of the US-412 upgrade language into the infrastructure bill when it was still in the Senate. Since that bill just passed the House, the only way it doesn't happen now is if Joe Biden says so, and the chances of that are virtually nil. (Inhofe then later voted against the bill that contained his amendment. Ah, politics.)

The standalone bill you've been tracking is now redundant and therefore probably won't make it out of committee, since there's no reason for further action on it.
So Inhofe was for it before he was against it?
He opposed the infrastructure bill in general, largely due to the fact only some $100 billion is actually going to roads, bridges, etc. but decided to include the US-412 amendment in order to get something out of it, given it was inevitably going to pass.
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Avalanchez71

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #273 on: November 08, 2021, 07:39:08 AM »

Quote from: MikieTimT
And if Springdale/Lowell is where it ended, I'd agree, but was intended to go all the way to Nashville, which adds quite a bit of mileage.

I've seen "I-66" proposals that crossed Kentucky, Missouri and even parts of Kansas and New Mexico. I've seen propsals for upgrading US-412 across Arkansas in various manners, but usually no more than standard 4-lane divided rather than full Interstate quality. Such a corridor going clear to Nashville? I must have missed that HPC proposal.

Quote from: CoreySamson
What if this potential I-50 extends towards Denver via Dodge City and Garden City like your Oklahoma City-Denver interstate idea you've floated around? I'd like to think that would be worthy of an x0.

The route would look a little weird overall, a bit of a V-shape, with it having to take a fairly sharp bend going up into Kansas. If such a route were to go up to Dodge City the bend in Oklahoma would have to happen near Enid rather than Woodward. That would ruin quite a bit of the appeal of such a route for drivers coming from/thru the OKC area heading to Colorado. A direct route from Woodward to Garden City works better in that regard.

I think chances are between very slim to absolutely none the US-412 corridor would ever be upgraded fully to Interstate quality between Springdale and Walnut Ridge. But if such a thing were to happen, and I-555 was extended up to Walnut Ridge, that could be added to that fictional diagonal corridor up to Limon. That ultimate combo, an I-70 to I-40 route, would be more worthy of an I-50 designation.

Still, I think a designation as big as I-50 needs to cross at least 3 time zones or be as close to a coast-to-coast route as possible. Not too long ago I described one fictional I-50 idea that would go from Jacksonville, FL to Provo, UT. But that idea would consume I-22 and I-555. I would use US-60 across Southern Missouri (since chances are far better for US-60 to get an Interstate upgrade than US-412 in Northern Arkansas). From Joplin the route would go to Wichita and overlap US-50 a good distance thru Pueblo to Grand Junction, co-sign with I-70 to the US-6 split then go up to Provo to end at I-15. Can't see any realistic scenario for pushing the fictional route across Nevada into California.

That's odd.  Almost every reference of ISTEA High Priority Corridor 8 I found online has it going into Tennessee, Nashville specifically. (Much to the chagrin of our resident US-412 Tennessee representative)

https://www.peaktraffic.org/corridors.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_priority_corridor
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/COMPS-1422/pdf/COMPS-1422.pdf (Pg. 68-71 of 158,
SEC.  1105.  HIGH  PRIORITY  CORRIDORS  ON  NATIONAL  HIGHWAY  SYSTEM,
  (c)  IDENTIFICATION OF HIGH PRIORITY CORRIDORS ON NATIONAL HIGHWAY SYSTEM.—The following are high priority corridors on the National Highway System:
      (8)  Highway  412  East-West  Corridor  from  Tulsa,  Oklahoma, through Arkansas along United States Route 62/63/65 to Nashville, Tennessee.)


And I-30 is only in 2 states, both within a single timezone, and is almost as much N-S as it is E-W.  It's one with a rather large amount of traffic, though.  Diagonals sure do mess with standards.

I just did this drive and found that there are several options out there already.  We don't need an additional option.
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MikieTimT

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #274 on: November 08, 2021, 11:37:11 AM »

From an email, the latest thing I've heard about the US-412 upgrade is that it's in the Environment and Public Works Committee of the U.S. Senate since May. Has anyone else heard anything new recently?

Does (or could) the (massive) infrastructure bill change any of that?

Inhofe offered an amendment, which was passed, adding a copy of the US-412 upgrade language into the infrastructure bill when it was still in the Senate. Since that bill just passed the House, the only way it doesn't happen now is if Joe Biden says so, and the chances of that are virtually nil. (Inhofe then later voted against the bill that contained his amendment. Ah, politics.)

The standalone bill you've been tracking is now redundant and therefore probably won't make it out of committee, since there's no reason for further action on it.

Apparently, this trucking company is pretty confident in all of this moving forward since they just bought land on the next exit to the south of where this currently terminates south of Lowell on I-49.

Trucking company buys I-49 land in Springdale for possible expansion
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