Proposed US 412 Upgrade

[vdeane]

The I-42 route in Oklahoma/Arkansas will look interesting if its shields are paired with US-412.

Hmm... maybe that's why they wanted I-42.

[Bobby5280]

With me being a sign designer, I have to say there is something aesthetically pleasing about "42" and "412" shields being arranged together vertically or horizontally on a steel post.

[bugo]

I'm no sign designer, but here's something I cobbled up in Photoshop in a few minutes.

[MikieTimT]

With me being a sign designer, I have to say there is something aesthetically pleasing about "42" and "412" shields being arranged together vertically or horizontally on a steel post.

On the Arkansas side of the border, you can rest assured that they won't be.  When I-49 shields went up, the US-71 shields came down.

[The Ghostbuster]

Is Oklahoma like to co-sign US 412 and future Interstate 42 together? How good is the state about co-signing Interstates with State and US Highways?

[swake]

Is Oklahoma like to co-sign US 412 and future Interstate 42 together? How good is the state about co-signing Interstates with State and US Highways?

Yes, most likely will:
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0844125,-96.0437347,3a,30.2y,33.91h,90.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s20AwT0F_LemLBdZd6Dcaog!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1633078,-95.9808348,3a,75y,188.41h,103.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKu16YSZEMnyY_BXHm6FCEA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

[bugo]

Is Oklahoma like to co-sign US 412 and future Interstate 42 together? How good is the state about co-signing Interstates with State and US Highways?

I took this picture a couple of weeks after I-540 was extended from Van Buren to Rogers, in 1999. It didn't go all the way to Bella Vista, it ended at the US 62 interchange and the freeway to the north was signed as solo US 71. When I-540 was renamed to I-49, it replaced the US 71 freeway between US 62 and then US 71B. This sign assembly probably didn't last long, but it's a rare glimpse into a fantastical world where Arkansas is as religious as signing highway overlaps as Oklahoma is. It was taken with a primitive 1999-vintage Vivitar digital camera, and it was getting dark, and I was driving at speed when I took the picture, so it had an unusual effect. Somebody years ago described it as "psychedelic". It's not one of my "better" pictures but it's one of my favorites.

[bugo]

My number for the US 412 corridor has always been Interstate 46, although any even number between 42 and 62 would work. As for the highways designated along Tulsa's IDL, the only place I could see them being moved to would be back on their original alignments through town.

46 would have probably been the best number for the road, even though I was rooting for 50. It could use any number between 42 and 62 as you said, but 54 and 56 wouldn't be acceptable because US 54 and 56 go through the Panhandle. 60 wouldn't be because it would run parallel to US 60, which runs 20-30 miles north of US 412, and 62 wouldn't be because it would be 15 miles from US 62. Yes, I know US 49/I-49, US 24/I-24, US 41/I-41 and US 74/I-74, but those are violations and having a US highway in the same state or even in the same county should not be the new paradigm and should be avoided at all costs, especially if there are this many acceptable numbers available. That means 46, 48, 50, 52 or 58 would be acceptable. 46 would be the most rational, but 50 was my sentimental favorite. So hopefully AASHTO will tell ODOT to change the number of this, I-335 and I-344. I-335 should be I-835 and I-344 should be I-640 and the Kilpatrick should swap designations at I-40.

[Henry]

I'm fine with I-42 being signed in NC, but I'm not a huge fan of it being signed in OK. Although most of it will be south of I-44, I would've preferred for it to be signed as either I-46 or I-48, if not I-50.

I-50 fits into the grid as well as any number does. It will be north of I-44 and south of I-70. And they're not going to build a cross country I-50, so why save it for an occasion which will likely never happen?

An "I-50" designation would imply major route importance. The fact that certain people are campaigning for that number only goes to prove my point. US-412 from Tulsa to Springdale is extremely NOT an important Interstate route. If we can get away with calling that "I-50" then that standard would open other ridiculous possibilities. Some jackass (a politician most likely) could come along and suggest something like the WA-16 freeway from Tacoma to Bremerton be labeled as Interstate 1.

Not all one thru ninety-nine digits need to be used up in Interstate highway designations. Considering how the US highway system has had so many routes decommissioned and cannibalized, maybe this situation could be something which helps protect US-50.

I-30 was wasted on a route from DFW to Little Rock, which is clearly not cross-country, but no one is complaining about that.

[bugo]

Here's a view of the Cimarron Turnpike back when it still had a narrow raised grassy median. You can see that there was no margin for error when passing big trucks. It was scary.

[bugo]

Is Oklahoma like to co-sign US 412 and future Interstate 42 together? How good is the state about co-signing Interstates with State and US Highways?

Very, very good. I-444 isn't signed, but virtually all follow routes are signed. OK 66 wasn't signed along I-44 in Tulsa and Oklahoma City for a long time, but for at least 15 years it has been religiously signed in Tulsa. It wasn't signed in Oklahoma City until the new signs were put up in the late 2010s, but it is at least partially signed now according to Street View.

[Scott5114]

It could use any number between 42 and 62 as you said, but 54 and 56 wouldn't be acceptable because US 54 and 56 go through the Panhandle. 60 wouldn't be because it would run parallel to US 60, which runs 20-30 miles north of US 412, and 62 wouldn't be because it would be 15 miles from US 62.

Like ODOT cares—we already have an OK 54 and OK 56, US 266 and OK 266 are a couple of counties away from each other, and US 270 and OK 270 are within a few miles of each other.

[bugo]

US 412 has been rerouted in Hoxie and Walnut Ridge, It now follows US 63 and US 67 (Future I-57) and the old highway is now US 412B. Here is an excerpt from the newest ArDOT control section map showing US 412B through Walnut Ridge.



Here is the relevant minute order.

[Bobby5280]

I-30 was wasted on a route from DFW to Little Rock, which is clearly not cross-country, but no one is complaining about that.

Plenty of people have complained about I-30 not being a cross-country route. While that major Interstate is short in length the route makes up for it with importance. It originates in the nation's 4th most populated metro. Both ends of I-30 are at major Interstates, I-20 and I-40. The US-412 route from Tulsa to Springdale meets none of that criteria to deserve a major route designation like I-50 or I-60.

[intelati49]

I-30 was wasted on a route from DFW to Little Rock, which is clearly not cross-country, but no one is complaining about that.

Plenty of people have complained about I-30 not being a cross-country route. While that major Interstate is short in length the route makes up for it with importance. It originates in the nation's 4th most populated metro. Both ends of I-30 are at major Interstates, I-20 and I-40. The US-412 route from Tulsa to Springdale meets none of that criteria to deserve a major route designation like I-50 or I-60.

Yeah. 30 is so highly traveled for how "short" it is.

[roadman65]

I-30 was wasted on a route from DFW to Little Rock, which is clearly not cross-country, but no one is complaining about that.

Plenty of people have complained about I-30 not being a cross-country route. While that major Interstate is short in length the route makes up for it with importance. It originates in the nation's 4th most populated metro. Both ends of I-30 are at major Interstates, I-20 and I-40. The US-412 route from Tulsa to Springdale meets none of that criteria to deserve a major route designation like I-50 or I-60.

Then you have I-45 that is supposed to do the same, but north to south. It gets a five ending number and goes only 300 plus miles and don't even leave the state it originated from.  It should have been given I-41 with I-49 given the I-45 designation instead. However I-49 is a Johnny Come Lately with it only conceived in part in the early eighties with it only recently given a longer corridor.

However you have two interstates now ending in 9 that are to be longer than one interstate ending in 5.  That's not what a 5 ending interstate is to be, but what a zero ending interstate does E-W but instead N-S.

[Molandfreak]

It originates in the nation's 4th most populated metro.

Then why didn't the New York metro get I-85, I-95, I-70, and I-80? There was no reason DFW had to hog all the major interstates, while entire states like Wisconsin got completely shafted as a result of this.

At least this serves a major metro area that does not have a major interstate. Neither I-30 nor I-45 do this, so in my book that instantly makes it less of a joke than both of them.

[I-55]

However you have two interstates now ending in 9 that are to be longer than one interstate ending in 5.  That's not what a 5 ending interstate is to be, but what a zero ending interstate does E-W but instead N-S.

Just for fun, there are currently six interstates that end in 9 are longer than I-45 (I-29, 39, 49, 59, 69, 79). I-69, I-81, and I-29 are longer than I-85, and all other x5's are longer than any other non x5.

[Bobby5280]

Then you have I-45 that is supposed to do the same, but north to south. It gets a five ending number and goes only 300 plus miles and don't even leave the state it originated from.  It should have been given I-41 with I-49 given the I-45 designation instead.

At least I-45 has the potential of being extended North into Oklahoma and even Kansas (depending on what routes were overlapped and upgraded).

It's a little surprising I-45 wasn't proposed to extend North to Tulsa back when the Interstate highway system was first being planned. The Interstate Highway System was Dwight Eisenhower's "baby." Eisenhower was born in Denison, TX. That small city is next to the Red River and US-75 and US-69 converge there to cross the river. It's odd an Interstate highway is not signed thru Eisenhower's home town. But such a thing could happen.

Then why didn't the New York metro get I-85, I-95, I-70, and I-80? There was no reason DFW had to hog all the major interstates, while entire states like Wisconsin got completely shafted as a result of this.

Geography.

The Greater New York metro is served by a lot of super highways, some of them major Interstates like I-95 and I-80 as well as "lesser" Interstates like I-78 and I-87. The I-81 and I-84 corridors function as regional bypasses for metro NYC.

I-85 was originally drawn up to span from I-65 to I-95. I-70 runs into the Baltimore and DC metro areas. I don't know why you say Wisconsin got shafted; that state has a lot of Interstate highway routes. I-90 just cuts across the Southern half of the state to provide a more direct route for traffic coming from Chicago to reach the Twin Cities.

[Road Hog]

Then you have I-45 that is supposed to do the same, but north to south. It gets a five ending number and goes only 300 plus miles and don't even leave the state it originated from.  It should have been given I-41 with I-49 given the I-45 designation instead.

At least I-45 has the potential of being extended North into Oklahoma and even Kansas (depending on what routes were overlapped and upgraded).

It's a little surprising I-45 wasn't proposed to extend North to Tulsa back when the Interstate highway system was first being planned. The Interstate Highway System was Dwight Eisenhower's "baby." Eisenhower was born in Denison, TX. That small city is next to the Red River and US-75 and US-69 converge there to cross the river. It's odd an Interstate highway is not signed thru Eisenhower's home town. But such a thing could happen.

Then why didn't the New York metro get I-85, I-95, I-70, and I-80? There was no reason DFW had to hog all the major interstates, while entire states like Wisconsin got completely shafted as a result of this.

Geography.

The Greater New York metro is served by a lot of super highways, some of them major Interstate like I-95 and I-80 as well as "lesser" Interstates like I-78 and I-87. The I-81 and I-84 corridors function has regional bypasses for metro NYC.

I-85 was originally drawn up to span from I-65 to I-95. I-70 runs into the Baltimore and DC metro areas. I don't know why you say Wisconsin got shafted; that state has a lot of Interstate highway routes. I-90 just cuts across the Southern half of the state to provide a more direct route for traffic coming from Chicago to reach the Twin Cities.

That's a good point about Eisenhower's hometown not being served by his system. Except for the fact that Ike grew up in Abilene, Kansas and considered that his hometown. His birth in Denison was by happenstance.

[DJStephens]

Here's a view of the Cimarron Turnpike back when it still had a narrow raised grassy median. You can see that there was no margin for error when passing big trucks. It was scary.

Have long believed I-44 - from the MO state line to Tulsa, and also between Tulsa and OKC should have been completely rebuilt by now.   Utilizing the wide ROW to construct new main lines mostly to the Outside of current narrow roadway cross sections.  All new bridges and overpasses.  Far greater horizontal clearances.   Vertical curvature improvements (meaning wacking down hills and adding to fills) and some Horizontal clearance improvements as well.  85 mph design speed, with a 75 mph posted limit.  Trucks probably less.  This same approach could be used on the Cimarron as well as a few of the other aging turnpikes.   

[bugo]

Have long believed I-44 - from the MO state line to Tulsa, and also between Tulsa and OKC should have been completely rebuilt by now.   Utilizing the wide ROW to construct new main lines mostly to the Outside of current narrow roadway cross sections.  All new bridges and overpasses.  Far greater horizontal clearances.   Vertical curvature improvements (meaning wacking down hills and adding to fills) and some Horizontal clearance improvements as well.  85 mph design speed, with a 75 mph posted limit.  Trucks probably less.  This same approach could be used on the Cimarron as well as a few of the other aging turnpikes.   

That would cost billions of dollars, money the OTA doesn't have. If they did this, they would have to double the cost of tolls (which they kind of did with the scam known as Platepay) and it would take years to finish. Besides, I-44 in Oklahoma isn't that bad. If you ever take I-44 from Tulsa or OKC to St Louis, I-44 is fine in Oklahoma and in Missouri west of Springfield. But the part of I-44 from Springfield to St Louis is terrible. Oklahoma I-44 is a superspeedway compared to the sections of I-44 east of Springfield where it is crooked and choked with trucks that will cut you off and micropass the truck next to it. This used to be in large a US 66 expressway, designed before the Interstate system. I'd almost rather take US 60 to I-55 to avoid I-44 in Missouri.

[edwaleni]

But the part of I-44 from Springfield to St Louis is terrible. Oklahoma I-44 is a superspeedway compared to the sections of I-44 east of Springfield where it is crooked and choked with trucks that will cut you off and micropass the truck next to it. This used to be in large a US 66 expressway, designed before the Interstate system. I'd almost rather take US 60 to I-55 to avoid I-44 in Missouri.

x1000

Would love to run a cost to build analysis on what it would take to remove some of that nonsense.

[Bobby5280]

Have long believed I-44 - from the MO state line to Tulsa, and also between Tulsa and OKC should have been completely rebuilt by now.   Utilizing the wide ROW to construct new main lines mostly to the Outside of current narrow roadway cross sections.

Even if the OTA had the money to do that such a thing the task would arguably be wasteful. All the grading and drainage work would have to be completely redone to physically separate the EB and WB lanes into discrete roadways. And more ROW would have to be acquired in some places. The ROW widths for I-44 across Oklahoma vary a great deal. There are stretches where the ROW is 300' or even 350' wide. That does make it look weird for the EB and WB lanes to be butted up together, only separated by a concrete Jersey barrier. Lots of other segments have ROW widths of 250' or only 200'. The Turner Turnpike has ROW sections that get pretty narrow.

That would cost billions of dollars, money the OTA doesn't have. If they did this, they would have to double the cost of tolls (which they kind of did with the scam known as Platepay) and it would take years to finish.

I don't mind the PlatePay tolls being roughly double the PikePass rate. There are two valid reasons to justify that high PlatePay cost. First, it obviously provides a clear incentive for procrastinators to stop piddling around and get a PikePass account or a compatible toll tag from an agency in another state.

The second reason is mis-reads and admin work involved at dealing with them. It's not easy for a camera system optically reading license plates to work 100% of the time. The camera system may glitch out. Some vehicles are dirty and have grungy plates. Even if the license plates are in great condition there are lots of different kinds of plates just within Oklahoma. OK state plates can be ordered in a variety of designs. Add to that all the different tribal license plates. A certain amount of tolls end up not being collected. That high PlatePay costs makes up for that to some degree.

It's also worth mentioning the PlatePay cost on Oklahoma's turnpikes is more in line with what tolls cost on most other turnpikes in the country even if you are using their toll tag. Our PikePass toll rates are a bargain.

[rte66man]

Here's a view of the Cimarron Turnpike back when it still had a narrow raised grassy median. You can see that there was no margin for error when passing big trucks. It was scary.
<snipped>

Have long believed I-44 - from the MO state line to Tulsa, and also between Tulsa and OKC should have been completely rebuilt by now.   Utilizing the wide ROW to construct new main lines mostly to the Outside of current narrow roadway cross sections.  All new bridges and overpasses.  Far greater horizontal clearances.   Vertical curvature improvements (meaning wacking down hills and adding to fills) and some Horizontal clearance improvements as well.  85 mph design speed, with a 75 mph posted limit.  Trucks probably less.  This same approach could be used on the Cimarron as well as a few of the other aging turnpikes.   

Now that the OK Supreme Court has OK'ed the sale of Access Oklahoma bonds. the rest of the Turner will be upgraded from west of Kellyville to OKC. It will match the part already upgraded (jersey barriers, 6 lanes with room to expand to 8, etc.). You can already see where the RoW has been acquired near Bristow as the fences have all been pushed back.