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Author Topic: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?  (Read 8015 times)

GaryV

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Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
« Reply #50 on: June 30, 2021, 11:14:29 AM »

CN has tracks that go as far as New Orleans:

https://www.cn.ca/en/our-services/maps-and-network/

In the US, there is a Jones Act that requires shipments between US ports to use US flagged ships.  Canada has something similar:  https://maritimetrades.org/canadas-coasting-trade-act/

But is there a land (rail and or road) version of these? 
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vdeane

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Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2021, 01:19:43 PM »

When driving between western and eastern Canada it's faster to go through the US.

Unless it was for essential travel.......that hasn't been possible for the past 16 months. And besides.....a lot of Canadians just wouldn't do it.

A lot of Canadians *can't* do it - apparently freight with both a Canadian origin and destination has to remain within Canadian borders (for customs reasons). So a freight load from Nova Scotia to Alberta has to go through Quebec and Ontario despite being cheaper and faster to go through the States.
Huh.  I could have sworn that I read that a bunch of Canadian trucks cut through the US because it's on faster/higher quality roads.  I know I certainly see enough trucks with Alberta, Manitoba, and New Brunswick plates on the Thruway.
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Roadgeekteen

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Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
« Reply #52 on: June 30, 2021, 01:20:30 PM »

When driving between western and eastern Canada it's faster to go through the US.

Unless it was for essential travel.......that hasn't been possible for the past 16 months. And besides.....a lot of Canadians just wouldn't do it.

A lot of Canadians *can't* do it - apparently freight with both a Canadian origin and destination has to remain within Canadian borders (for customs reasons). So a freight load from Nova Scotia to Alberta has to go through Quebec and Ontario despite being cheaper and faster to go through the States.

I realize we're talking about driving here, but I'm not certain this freight requirement is true for trains.  CN has a mainline that passes through two northern Minnesota counties (between Warroad and Baudette).
Are the trains sealed when going through America?
When driving between western and eastern Canada it's faster to go through the US.

Unless it was for essential travel.......that hasn't been possible for the past 16 months. And besides.....a lot of Canadians just wouldn't do it.

A lot of Canadians *can't* do it - apparently freight with both a Canadian origin and destination has to remain within Canadian borders (for customs reasons). So a freight load from Nova Scotia to Alberta has to go through Quebec and Ontario despite being cheaper and faster to go through the States.
Huh.  I could have sworn that I read that a bunch of Canadian trucks cut through the US because it's on faster/higher quality roads.  I know I certainly see enough trucks with Alberta, Manitoba, and New Brunswick plates on the Thruway.
Some trucks might be able to do it idk
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ghYHZ

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Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2021, 08:04:51 AM »

I realize we're talking about driving here, but I'm not certain this freight requirement is true for trains.  CN has a mainline that passes through two northern Minnesota counties (between Warroad and Baudette).

Back in the 50's Canadian National had a passenger train on this route from Winnipeg to Port Arthur (Thunder Bay) and Duluth It crossed into the US at Warroad, Minnesota....back into Canada at Rainy River, Ontario....then at Fort Frances ON the train split with one section crossing back into the US again at International Falls MN and continuing onto Duluth. The Winnipeg-Thunder Bay train passing through the US lasted into the VIA Rail era.

Canadian Pacific’s Montreal to Boston train crossed into the US from Quebec to serve Richford, Vermont then back into Canada at Glenton QC and finally back into the US again at North Troy VT......all within 20 miles!

Trains from Detroit to Buffalo and New York City ran on 250 miles of New York Central (later Penn Central then Conrail) track across southern Ontario. Multiple trains a day, some with sleeping cars only. Hundreds of passengers passing thru Canada daily between US destinations and probably some not even realizing they were in Canada. Customs inspections were done but usually just a head-count (oh how simple things were pre 9-11 !!) Amtrak had a train on this route between Buffalo and Detroit that lasted ‘till 1979.

And there was VIA Rail Canada's 'Atlantic' across Maine.......

There were different procedures in handling the "Atlantic" over the years. When it was a Canadian Pacific train there was usually just a cursory inspection of coach passengers by US Customs. Sleeping car passengers were just left alone. The trains made several stops in Maine at Vanceboro, Danforth, Mattawamkeag, Brownville Jct., Greenville and Jackman. Local passengers were handled between US stops but anyone boarding in the US and going to Canada was checked by Canada Customs when the trains reached McAdam New Brunswick or Megantic, Quebec. This was the same procedure when VIA took over and extended the Atlantic through to Halifax in Oct. 1979 and was still in effect when the Atlantic was first discontinued in Nov. 1981.

When the Atlantic was reinstated in June 1985 there was a whole new set of rules: Now US Customs/INS insisted everyone would be inspected. Even the Sleeping Car passengers were woke eastbound at 3am ET in Jackman, Maine. Westbound wasn’t as bad: 9pm ET (10pm AT) at Vanceboro.

It took a couple of years of negotiations but eventually the train was 'Sealed' across the US with a metal 'Tag' being placed on all doors except in the one car where the US Customs Inspector rode.....only checking those getting off in the US. The 'Atlantic' was discontinued in December 1994.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 08:51:01 AM by ghYHZ »
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Alps

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MOVED: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2021, 12:23:55 AM »

Discussion of fictional numbering has been moved to Fictional Highways.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30176.0

dmuzika

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Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
« Reply #55 on: October 12, 2021, 12:43:11 PM »

I was wondering if had any insight on the ON 66/QC 117/A 15 leg of the Trans-Canada Highway between Montreal and ON 11 as it seems like an odd addition to the TCH. According to Google Maps, it's the shortest route between Montreal and Thunder Bay (and by extension, Western Canada), but is it actually widely used by cross-country traffic? Do trucks use that route or would they usually go through Ottawa? For reference, according to Google Maps, the distance and time between Thunder Bay and Montreal via the three main different TCH combinations is as follows:
  • ON 11, ON 61, QC 117, A 15 via Cochrane and Val-d'Or: 1602 km (18 hr 26 min)
  • ON 11, ON 17/417, A 40 via Cochrane and Ottawa: 1655 km (17 hr 46 min)
  • ON 17/417, A 40 via Sault Ste Marie and Ottawa: 1685 km (18 hr 10 min)
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cbeach40

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Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2021, 11:33:40 AM »

I was wondering if had any insight on the ON 66/QC 117/A 15 leg of the Trans-Canada Highway between Montreal and ON 11 as it seems like an odd addition to the TCH. According to Google Maps, it's the shortest route between Montreal and Thunder Bay (and by extension, Western Canada), but is it actually widely used by cross-country traffic? Do trucks use that route or would they usually go through Ottawa? For reference, according to Google Maps, the distance and time between Thunder Bay and Montreal via the three main different TCH combinations is as follows:
  • ON 11, ON 61, QC 117, A 15 via Cochrane and Val-d'Or: 1602 km (18 hr 26 min)
  • ON 11, ON 17/417, A 40 via Cochrane and Ottawa: 1655 km (17 hr 46 min)
  • ON 17/417, A 40 via Sault Ste Marie and Ottawa: 1685 km (18 hr 10 min)

I'm sure there's more than zero, but I would suspect that the route through Val-d'Or et al was lobbied for so Quebec and Ontario could grab some federal cash for those roads. I mean, that's the primary reason the Central Ontario Route exists, no one is driving through between Ottawa and Sudbury via Peterborough and Orillia for any practical reason.
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dmuzika

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Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2021, 05:00:55 PM »

I was wondering if had any insight on the ON 66/QC 117/A 15 leg of the Trans-Canada Highway between Montreal and ON 11 as it seems like an odd addition to the TCH. According to Google Maps, it's the shortest route between Montreal and Thunder Bay (and by extension, Western Canada), but is it actually widely used by cross-country traffic? Do trucks use that route or would they usually go through Ottawa? For reference, according to Google Maps, the distance and time between Thunder Bay and Montreal via the three main different TCH combinations is as follows:
  • ON 11, ON 61, QC 117, A 15 via Cochrane and Val-d'Or: 1602 km (18 hr 26 min)
  • ON 11, ON 17/417, A 40 via Cochrane and Ottawa: 1655 km (17 hr 46 min)
  • ON 17/417, A 40 via Sault Ste Marie and Ottawa: 1685 km (18 hr 10 min)

I'm sure there's more than zero, but I would suspect that the route through Val-d'Or et al was lobbied for so Quebec and Ontario could grab some federal cash for those roads. I mean, that's the primary reason the Central Ontario Route exists, no one is driving through between Ottawa and Sudbury via Peterborough and Orillia for any practical reason.

Fair enough. Out west, the Yellowhead Highway was heavily promoted in an effort to attract Edmonton-Vancouver traffic ("the shortest route from Edmonton to the coast!"), so I wonder if there's something similar happening there? As for Central Ontario, it is the original TCH alignment, albeit redundant.
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vdeane

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Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2021, 09:13:39 PM »

If it's the original TCH alignment, why does the TCH follow the ON 69 corridor from Sudbury rather than ON 11 from North Bay, given that ON 11 from Nipigon to North Bay was also the original alignment?  That makes me think it wasn't so much "original" as "first to be finished" (such may seem the same but they aren't; "original" means that one was the way it was and then the other was added after the fact, "first to be finished" means both were always planned and one happened to be done before the other).
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ghYHZ

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Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
« Reply #59 on: October 15, 2021, 02:17:37 PM »

In the book A Road for Canada...a map on page 75 show the Trans-Canada Highway extending from Halifax to Vancouver. From the text in the accompanying newspaper article I'm guessing the map is from 1947 or 48.  There's no route across Newfoundland as they were a separate country until entering Confederation in 1949. Victoria is also not shown.

A solid line from North Bay to Sault Ste Marie and onto Ft. William (Thunder Bay)is shown as the ”Official Trans-Canada Highway” but with a note: ”Unfinished Gap” along the north shore of Lake Superior.

Also shown are ”Alternate Routes” as dashed lines and this includes North Bay-Cochrane-Ft. William......with the note: ”Route Now Open”
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vdeane

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Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
« Reply #60 on: October 15, 2021, 10:00:30 PM »

In the book A Road for Canada...a map on page 75 show the Trans-Canada Highway extending from Halifax to Vancouver. From the text in the accompanying newspaper article I'm guessing the map is from 1947 or 48.  There's no route across Newfoundland as they were a separate country until entering Confederation in 1949. Victoria is also not shown.

A solid line from North Bay to Sault Ste Marie and onto Ft. William (Thunder Bay)is shown as the ”Official Trans-Canada Highway” but with a note: ”Unfinished Gap” along the north shore of Lake Superior.

Also shown are ”Alternate Routes” as dashed lines and this includes North Bay-Cochrane-Ft. William......with the note: ”Route Now Open”
We seem to be talking about two different routes here.  You're mentioning the ON 11 route bypassing the ON 17 route around Lake Superior (which, yes, did predate ON 17).  I was talking about the ON 69/ON 12/ON 7 route mentioned earlier.
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ghYHZ

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Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
« Reply #61 on: October 16, 2021, 05:45:11 AM »

We seem to be talking about two different routes here........I was talking about the ON 69/ON 12/ON 7 route mentioned earlier.

Was I quoting you??

Just putting out there what I found on a map from the 1947-48?? era.

As I noted the 'Official' TCH route shown then went from Halifax to Vancouver. Between North Bay and Ft. William there was an 'Alternate' route via Cochrane.

There was no ON7/ON12/ON69 route then. The TCH followed ON17 between Ottawa and North Bay.

And some other routings noted.......

In New Brunswick the TCH went via Saint John then onto Fredericton.

In the west......the TCH went via the 'Big Bend' in BC but Alternate routes were shown via Princeton BC (noted as Now Open)....and Edmonton to Kamloops (noted as Not Built) 



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vdeane

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Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
« Reply #62 on: October 16, 2021, 04:44:04 PM »

Sorry, I figured your post was a reply since it came right after and addressed the same type of subject matter.  That said, interesting that ON 17 did indeed come first (to the TCH at least) over ON 69/12/7.  I guess the person in this thread insisting the latter is the "original" TCH route is just incorrect.  Also interesting how it changed out west... that original routing of TCH 16 (TCH 5?) down to Kamloops would seem to make more sense than sending it out across rural BC and then a ferry to Masset.  I wonder why presumed TCH 3 is no longer around.
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ghYHZ

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Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
« Reply #63 on: October 16, 2021, 05:36:07 PM »

Sorry, I figured your post was a reply since it came right after and addressed the same type of subject matter.  That said, interesting that ON 17 did indeed come first (to the TCH at least) over ON 69/12/7.  I guess the person in this thread insisting the latter is the "original" TCH route is just incorrect.  Also interesting how it changed out west... that original routing of TCH 16 (TCH 5?) down to Kamloops would seem to make more sense than sending it out across rural BC and then a ferry to Masset.  I wonder why presumed TCH 3 is no longer around.

The 'Official' route shown was probably the Federal Governments preferred route. As noted in the description......the Premiers of the nine provinces were to meet the following week. I'm sure each had their own preferred routing and that's when changes were probably put forward.
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dmuzika

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Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
« Reply #64 on: October 16, 2021, 06:02:51 PM »

Sorry, I figured your post was a reply since it came right after and addressed the same type of subject matter.  That said, interesting that ON 17 did indeed come first (to the TCH at least) over ON 69/12/7.  I guess the person in this thread insisting the latter is the "original" TCH route is just incorrect.  Also interesting how it changed out west... that original routing of TCH 16 (TCH 5?) down to Kamloops would seem to make more sense than sending it out across rural BC and then a ferry to Masset.  I wonder why presumed TCH 3 is no longer around.

The present-day Crowsnest Highway (AB/BC 3), previously known as the Interprovincial Highway in BC, was the first highway between the Lower Mainland and Alberta, but it's still a slower route with challenging terrain. Prior to the Hope-Princeton opening, one had to travel from Hope to Spences Bridge, then east through Merritt and south to Princeton along present-day Hwys 1, 8, and 5A. The other big difference was that Kootenay Pass (higher than Rogers Pass) wasn't open, so ferry crossings were needed at Kootenay Lake. I read that Nelson did unsuccessfully lobby for the TCH to pass through town.

Even today, with all the elevation changes and windy routing, it's shorter to take TCH 1 between Medicine Hat and Hope than Hwy 3. There's also the fact that the Alberta provincial government would not have agreed to a TCH route that bypasses both Calgary and Edmonton.
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mrsman

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Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
« Reply #65 on: October 24, 2021, 12:58:32 PM »

It seems like the authorities did not want to add too much mileage onto the route of the TCH.  Keep a more or less straight line route that will meet most of Canada's larger cities will basically hug the 49th parallel.  Due to the position of the Great Lakes, a lot more distance would be needed to go from Sudbury to Toronto and then onto Ottawa, as opposed to bypassing Toronto.

It seems like the TCH in its original configuration was meant as a corridor as opposed to a highway system.
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Transportfan

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Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
« Reply #66 on: October 27, 2021, 10:10:57 PM »

The highway should have Niagara Falls and Windsor branches.
it already does.....the QEW and the 401.

Don't count as they're not signed as national routes.

 


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