Your Favorite Forum Quotes

[Max Rockatansky]

That's the phenomenon of small discoveries leading to a cumulative big picture I was referring to a couple posts ago.  Even now, after all these years I'm finding small State Highway realignments for corridors like 180.  They aren't big as standalone discoveries but size up considerably when all of them are combined. 

I think the phenomenon you're seeing with the podcast scripts is similar to what I felt when I was building our library for California state highways on Gribblenation.  There are so many resources available for this state that there is almost always something new to find if you commit time to research.

[Beltway]

I'm curious where they get their fix for roadgeek discussion/news, especially as I'm only aware of the Facebook groups, and many of those are just as bad (if not worse, given the complaining here about a couple of them). 

FreewayJim has very large membership and ranges nationwide, plenty of high content, and is well run. Northeast Roads and Southeast Roads are low volume and also high content and well run. There are many regional groups.

There are agency pages as in VDOT, MDOT, PennDOT, MDTA, and so on. Also project pages like HRBT Expansion and Key Bridge Rebuild and so on.

Tons of pages on Facebook.

All kinds of highway material pops up on YouTube as well.

AARoads has always been a hobbyist forum, not a professional venue for engineers or planners. That's a very different culture from MTR, which mixed enthusiasts with people who worked in the field and encouraged long‑form technical discussion. AARoads was built as a lighter, more conversational space, and it's stayed that way. Most of the long‑timers who drifted away did so for ordinary life‑cycle reasons, not because the forum "collapsed." Expecting AARoads to function like MTR did is a category error -- it's an enthusiast community, and it works best when treated as one.

Are you saying that MTR was a professional forum for expert discussions on viatology?

No -- that there were numbers of active transportation professionals that contributed regularly.

I was the top poster by far on misc.transport.road. The Deja News later Google archive could be used to determine that.
And . . . so what? Post count interests me not at all.

I don't believe Google Groups has stat pages, so you'd have to have some kind of interest to have figured that out.  Unless you're just guesstimating.  And given the number of people who set their posts to not be archived, I'm not sure how one would make a conclusive determination.

Google Groups didn't have stat pages, but that didn't matter. It was still trivial to determine high‑volume posters because you could search by email address and sort by group. As of 2010, when m.t.r activity collapsed, it was easy to see total post counts for any e‑mail address. And I don't recall any of the high‑volume posters using X‑No‑Archive, so the dataset was effectively complete for the people who posted the most. A portion of my own posting footprint came from Deja News and then Google Groups after they took over the archive in 2001, so I had a clear sense of who was and wasn't archiving (there were not many).

[Max Rockatansky]

A lot of members here don't exactly have glowing praise for FWJ (personally I think it is okay).  It's leveled off lately but they had a significant Buc-ee's fever issue that felt very Calrog-like.  A lot of us other group admins think (myself included) think Jim is too fussy over photo quality standards. 

Southeast Roads is a Gribblenation Facebook group.  Truth be told I think many of our groups are redundant or too niche.  The reason you don't see much activity is because most people have moved to posting on FWJ or Roadgeekery. 

FWJ and Roadgeekery are the closest Facebook analogs to the forum.  Even still, they are mostly about photos and videos versus actual serious highway information.  There are some groups like Old Highway 101 (one of my groups), California's Historic Highways and Freeways of Los Angeles that have a historical slant.  Trouble is that they are usually that are tied to very specific topics and/or roads. 

The reality with the Facebook realm is that it requires you be a member of numerous road groups.  Lately my favorites have been Dirt Roads and California Overlanders.  They aren't exactly cerebral but they are more often than not actually fun.  Getting ideas from people who having fun driving is satisfactory for me.

[Rothman]

FWJ definitely has calmed down somewhat recently, but it was absolutely terrible about 1+ years ago.  Sort of has swung the other way to "I found this picture online and claiming it as my own" mundanity.

[Max Rockatansky]

FWJ definitely has calmed down somewhat recently, but it was absolutely terrible about 1+ years ago.  Sort of has swung the other way to "I found this picture online and claiming it as my own" mundanity.

Heh, the guy who was really guilty of that recently rejoined with a new profile.  I recognized him and denied his join requests to our groups. 

[hbelkins]

RE: the piling-on of Calrog on m.t.r:

I used to take part in it, then OSTT was born. I don't remember who came up with it -- the late David "US 71" Backlin, perhaps -- but once you realized that Calrog was an attention prostitute who was vain enough and puffed-up with self-importance to actually pay PRWeb to promote his site, it was easier to just ignore his lame posts and not respond to them. I can't remember if OSTT stood for "Operation Starve the Troll" or "Operation Silence the Troll," however.

To me, the biggest blight on m.t.r. was not Calrog, but Randy Hersh and his various identities. He just couldn't help himself but to spew his racism all over Usenet.

I remember a number of feuds that broke out there -- our own Beltway vs. John Lansford, Bob Chessick vs. C.C. "Otto Yamamoto" Slater, and others -- and I even had some heated back-and-forths with the aforementioned US 71, Jeremy Lance, and a handful of others -- but Hersh is the only one whom I found really revolting. Carl Rogers was just the village idiot; easy to ignore and forever deserving of ridicule.

There are a lot of people who were m.t.r. staples who either never appeared here, or have a very limited footprint. Jim Georges is one, Gene Van Dusseldorp is another. They're quite active on Facebook, but if they have accounts here, I'm unaware of them.

Given the reports I've heard of people being banned from Reddit, I don't think that's a forum that would be worthwhile. Despite the presence of people like Calrog and Hersh, I still favor the unmoderated flavor of discussion found on m.t.r. The killfile was your friend if used judiciously.

[Max Rockatansky]

Jim (of FWJ) does have a profile here but hasn't logged on in years.

[Beltway]

To me, the biggest blight on m.t.r. was not Calrog, but Randy Hersh and his various identities. He just couldn't help himself but to spew his racism all over Usenet.

I remember a number of feuds that broke out there -- our own Beltway vs. John Lansford, Bob Chessick vs. C.C. "Otto Yamamoto" Slater, and others -- and I even had some heated back-and-forths with the aforementioned US 71, Jeremy Lance, and a handful of others -- but Hersh is the only one whom I found really revolting. Carl Rogers was just the village idiot; easy to ignore and forever deserving of ridicule.

Yes I just ignored Carl Rogers. Annoying but easy to ignore.

There was Larry Gross -- he would get up about 3:00 am (the witching hour) and churn out anywhere from 10 to 50 anti-roads posts by about 6:00 am. I called him Larry Grossbelch.

So all three that I hinted about yesterday have been named.

Despite the presence of people like Calrog and Hersh, I still favor the unmoderated flavor of discussion found on m.t.r. The killfile was your friend if used judiciously.

Unmoderated groups have regulation problems -- but the flamethrower and loon mallet ends up functioning as a kind of equalizer. When anyone can escalate, no one has structural advantage, and the group self‑regulates through deterrence rather than moderation.

[kphoger]

I'm glad I got into this without m.t.r.

[Rothman]

m.t.r was so 20 years ago.

[elsmere241]

I remember a number of feuds that broke out there -- our own Beltway vs. John Lansford, Bob Chessick vs. C.C. "Otto Yamamoto" Slater, and others . . .

I remember one in particular in January 2002 regarding (what else?) the importance, feasibility, etc. of HSR.  Part of the things that exacerbated it was John Lansford and I (we both lived in Raleigh, NC) were snowed in all week.

[freebrickproductions]

FWJ and Roadgeekery are the closest Facebook analogs to the forum.  Even still, they are mostly about photos and videos versus actual serious highway information.

I'd imagine at least part of that is because, IIRC, Facebook's algorithm heavily favors posts with photos and videos over text-only posts, and heavily punishes any post that includes a link off-site in it in order to keep any potential traffic from "leaving" Facebook. I'd also imagine that another part of it is that taking photos and videos of roads and anything along them of interest (such as cool signs) is one of the more accessible parts of the hobby, especially compared to researching old highway alignments and things, and sharing said photos/videos is something Facebook makes very easy to do these days.

[Max Rockatansky]

FWJ and Roadgeekery are the closest Facebook analogs to the forum.  Even still, they are mostly about photos and videos versus actual serious highway information.

I'd imagine at least part of that is because, IIRC, Facebook's algorithm heavily favors posts with photos and videos over text-only posts, and heavily punishes any post that includes a link off-site in it in order to keep any potential traffic from "leaving" Facebook. I'd also imagine that another part of it is that taking photos and videos of roads and anything along them of interest (such as cool signs) is one of the more accessible parts of the hobby, especially compared to researching old highway alignments and things, and sharing said photos/videos is something Facebook makes very easy to do these days.

Yes, that algorithm is very easy to trick if you know what you're doing.  Often I'll just include one photo and put the external hyperlink to our site one sentence into Facebook posts.  Facebook just registers it as a photo post and gives it higher priority.  It has worked wonders getting more exposure for the California Highways Route by Route podcast.

[cahwyguy]

FWJ and Roadgeekery are the closest Facebook analogs to the forum.  Even still, they are mostly about photos and videos versus actual serious highway information.

I'd imagine at least part of that is because, IIRC, Facebook's algorithm heavily favors posts with photos and videos over text-only posts, and heavily punishes any post that includes a link off-site in it in order to keep any potential traffic from "leaving" Facebook. I'd also imagine that another part of it is that taking photos and videos of roads and anything along them of interest (such as cool signs) is one of the more accessible parts of the hobby, especially compared to researching old highway alignments and things, and sharing said photos/videos is something Facebook makes very easy to do these days.

Yes, that algorithm is very easy to trick if you know what you're doing.  Often I'll just include one photo and put the external hyperlink to our site one sentence into Facebook posts.  Facebook just registers it as a photo post and gives it higher priority.  It has worked wonders getting more exposure for the California Highways Route by Route podcast.

I'll have to remember that trick. I still just share the link. Old dogs and all that rot.

[LilianaUwU]

m.t.r was so 20 years ago.

And yet, looking at some threads in here... things don't seem to have changed since the MTR days.

[Rothman]

m.t.r was so 20 years ago.

And yet, looking at some threads in here... things don't seem to have changed since the MTR days.

Ehhhhh...m.t.r could be pretty chaotic, given the format.

[cahwyguy]

m.t.r was so 20 years ago.

And yet, looking at some threads in here... things don't seem to have changed since the MTR days.

As I said, I blame it on all the folks coming over from AOL, plus it gets really bad when the school year starts.

(If you are from the m.t.r era, you'll understand)

sdcrdcf!faigin

[LilianaUwU]

it gets really bad when the school year starts.

Playing online games, it's the opposite for me.

[Scott5114]

I'm curious where they get their fix for roadgeek discussion/news, especially as I'm only aware of the Facebook groups, and many of those are just as bad (if not worse, given the complaining here about a couple of them).  I even remember when "there is no Mario Cuomo bridge, capice?" and "bikey-wikey" were memes.

The AARoads Wiki has a whole community which only a few members of also post on the forum (despite my attempts over the years to increase crossover appeal). Of course most of its day to day discussion takes place over Discord, but whatever historical findings they turn up get documented on the wiki itself.

One peculiarity of that community is that it's quite a bit more internationally-focused than most roadgeek communities. An ongoing subject of discussion over the last week or so has been Panamanian route numbering, for instance.

Despite the presence of people like Calrog and Hersh, I still favor the unmoderated flavor of discussion found on m.t.r. The killfile was your friend if used judiciously.

The problem with Usenet was (at least at the end there) not everyone had access to a killfile. Google Groups never had one, and that was my only option for access to MTR since my small rural dialup ISP never offered a Usenet feed and I didn't have a credit or debit card. So if you found yourself in that position, you had no respite from the trolls and Rogerses.

[formulanone]

m.t.r was so 20 years ago.

And yet, looking at some threads in here... things don't seem to have changed since the MTR days.

As I said, I blame it on all the folks coming over from AOL, plus it gets really bad when the school year starts.

(If you are from the m.t.r era, you'll understand)

sdcrdcf!faigin

Eternal September ain't nothing compared to bots, scrapers, and brute-force attacks.

The internet also wasn't supposed to be a country club.

[vdeane]

FWJ and Roadgeekery are the closest Facebook analogs to the forum.  Even still, they are mostly about photos and videos versus actual serious highway information.

I'd imagine at least part of that is because, IIRC, Facebook's algorithm heavily favors posts with photos and videos over text-only posts, and heavily punishes any post that includes a link off-site in it in order to keep any potential traffic from "leaving" Facebook. I'd also imagine that another part of it is that taking photos and videos of roads and anything along them of interest (such as cool signs) is one of the more accessible parts of the hobby, especially compared to researching old highway alignments and things, and sharing said photos/videos is something Facebook makes very easy to do these days.

Yes, that algorithm is very easy to trick if you know what you're doing.  Often I'll just include one photo and put the external hyperlink to our site one sentence into Facebook posts.  Facebook just registers it as a photo post and gives it higher priority.  It has worked wonders getting more exposure for the California Highways Route by Route podcast.

Of course, one has to be careful with that.  I was including a link to my site in the text of site update posts with photos and then sharing them to Northeast Roads, and Facebook blocked one saying I was trying to farm likes or something and that continuing to do that would see my page banned.  Since then I went to just doing the update post with no link, though I'm experimenting with sharing to the group again now that it's an officially supported function when making the post.

[Max Rockatansky]

FWJ and Roadgeekery are the closest Facebook analogs to the forum.  Even still, they are mostly about photos and videos versus actual serious highway information.

I'd imagine at least part of that is because, IIRC, Facebook's algorithm heavily favors posts with photos and videos over text-only posts, and heavily punishes any post that includes a link off-site in it in order to keep any potential traffic from "leaving" Facebook. I'd also imagine that another part of it is that taking photos and videos of roads and anything along them of interest (such as cool signs) is one of the more accessible parts of the hobby, especially compared to researching old highway alignments and things, and sharing said photos/videos is something Facebook makes very easy to do these days.

Yes, that algorithm is very easy to trick if you know what you're doing.  Often I'll just include one photo and put the external hyperlink to our site one sentence into Facebook posts.  Facebook just registers it as a photo post and gives it higher priority.  It has worked wonders getting more exposure for the California Highways Route by Route podcast.

Of course, one has to be careful with that.  I was including a link to my site in the text of site update posts with photos and then sharing them to Northeast Roads, and Facebook blocked one saying I was trying to farm likes or something and that continuing to do that would see my page banned.  Since then I went to just doing the update post with no link, though I'm experimenting with sharing to the group again now that it's an officially supported function when making the post.

I'm not really concerned as I've been doing it for about five years.  Adam was doing the same thing even before I was.  He didn't like the thumbnail images coming from our actual page and used actual photos in the post. 

I'm finding that doing the shares myself often has a nominal effect on how well the post does.  A lot of groups have shut off external site post sharing.  Freeways of Los Angeles is the most prominent example that I used to regularly interact with.

[cahwyguy]

I'm finding that doing the shares myself often has a nominal effect on how well the post does.  A lot of groups have shut off external site post sharing.  Freeways of Los Angeles is the most prominent example that I used to regularly interact with.

Actually, Freeways of LA seems to have no problem with my sharing headlines or updates. But I do have a pretty good rep with the moderator (we even had him on our podcast, as I recall).

[Max Rockatansky]

I'm finding that doing the shares myself often has a nominal effect on how well the post does.  A lot of groups have shut off external site post sharing.  Freeways of Los Angeles is the most prominent example that I used to regularly interact with.

Actually, Freeways of LA seems to have no problem with my sharing headlines or updates. But I do have a pretty good rep with the moderator (we even had him on our podcast, as I recall).

I'm not begging Arturo to externally share our stuff.  On occasion he does share stuff from our Facebook page if it catches his interest.  Previously I could submit an external shares for his review, but he turned that off.  I could just direct post stuff in his group, especially links that are external.  I just don't feel the need to help grow his group with our Facebook page content if we aren't going to benefit from it. 

Arturo is big on strict rules and he's only been getting tighter with them.  It really has soured my participation in group for me over this past year.  For me there is a fine line between too many rules and too few.  He does things I find strange like posting monthly group rule reminders and shutting off comments on specific holidays.  Many of the Freeways of Los Angeles group posts are just his stuff from years ago that he reshares ("reposts" as he would say) now. 

Arturo does all the group admin work himself.  For now he has the energy to keep up with 70,000 plus members.  That's a lot to keep up, especially this current rule set. 

FWIW, Arturo does list me as a "group expert" on Freeways of Los Angeles.  It was also really good of him to come on our podcast.  I have a lot of respect for the work that he did at Caltrans and he certainly does know his stuff when it comes to history.

[cahwyguy]

As I said, I haven't had a problem, but perhaps frequency comes into play: I think I share things to him perhaps 1-2 times a month, perhaps 3 if there is a SoCal podcast in there. Looking at the group, Arturo seems to be initiating articles more, and I do see more images than links. I may change up how I'm sharing things, sending in a list of SoCal specific times in the post introduction. If he starts rejecting things, I'll see if I can put a link in the first comment (that's harder when you need moderator approval to get the post in the first place).

I'll note there's also a Bay Areas Freeways group, but it is less active.

I'm finding that doing the shares myself often has a nominal effect on how well the post does.  A lot of groups have shut off external site post sharing.  Freeways of Los Angeles is the most prominent example that I used to regularly interact with.

Actually, Freeways of LA seems to have no problem with my sharing headlines or updates. But I do have a pretty good rep with the moderator (we even had him on our podcast, as I recall).

I'm not begging Arturo to externally share our stuff.  On occasion he does share stuff from our Facebook page if it catches his interest.  Previously I could submit an external shares for his review, but he turned that off.  I could just direct post stuff in his group, especially links that are external.  I just don't feel the need to help grow his group with our Facebook page content if we aren't going to benefit from it. 

Arturo is big on strict rules and he's only been getting tighter with them.  It really has soured my participation in group for me over this past year.  For me there is a fine line between too many rules and too few.  He does things I find strange like posting monthly group rule reminders and shutting off comments on specific holidays.  Many of the Freeways of Los Angeles group posts are just his stuff from years ago that he reshares ("reposts" as he would say) now. 

Arturo does all the group admin work himself.  For now he has the energy to keep up with 70,000 plus members.  That's a lot to keep up, especially this current rule set. 

FWIW, Arturo does list me as a "group expert" on Freeways of Los Angeles.  It was also really good of him to come on our podcast.  I have a lot of respect for the work that he did at Caltrans and he certainly does know his stuff when it comes to history.