Why do people still live in New Orleans?

[Max Rockatansky]

I mean we've gone to the fucking moon. I'm sure someone can come up with an idea that can balance out the loss of Detroit and its population.

Adjusted for inflation, the Apollo program cost about $300 billion.  And the money chiefly came from the U.S. federal government, because they saw it as being in the national interest during the Cold War to assert American dominance over the Soviet Union.  It also had the admiration, admiration, and awe of the American populace, with kids looking up to astronauts as national heroes.

I'm struggling to see how any of that could compare to the task of revitalizing Detroit.

A lot of consumer goods came out of NASA's development (e.g., velcro...).

Detroit economic issues were mainly being fully invested in automotive manufacturing.  The city had a huge problem once the domestic automakers figured out it was cheaper just to pay workers in other countries. 

[Rothman]

I mean we've gone to the fucking moon. I'm sure someone can come up with an idea that can balance out the loss of Detroit and its population.

Adjusted for inflation, the Apollo program cost about $300 billion.  And the money chiefly came from the U.S. federal government, because they saw it as being in the national interest during the Cold War to assert American dominance over the Soviet Union.  It also had the admiration, admiration, and awe of the American populace, with kids looking up to astronauts as national heroes.

I'm struggling to see how any of that could compare to the task of revitalizing Detroit.

A lot of consumer goods came out of NASA's development (e.g., velcro...).

Detroit economic issues were mainly being fully invested in automotive manufacturing.  The city had a huge problem once the domestic automakers figured out it was cheaper just to pay workers in other countries. 

Eh, other cities figured out how to shift their economies...eventually (e.g., Pittsburgh).  Detroit doesn't seem as bad off as it was when I was a kid.

[Max Rockatansky]

I mean we've gone to the fucking moon. I'm sure someone can come up with an idea that can balance out the loss of Detroit and its population.

Adjusted for inflation, the Apollo program cost about $300 billion.  And the money chiefly came from the U.S. federal government, because they saw it as being in the national interest during the Cold War to assert American dominance over the Soviet Union.  It also had the admiration, admiration, and awe of the American populace, with kids looking up to astronauts as national heroes.

I'm struggling to see how any of that could compare to the task of revitalizing Detroit.

A lot of consumer goods came out of NASA's development (e.g., velcro...).

Detroit economic issues were mainly being fully invested in automotive manufacturing.  The city had a huge problem once the domestic automakers figured out it was cheaper just to pay workers in other countries. 

Eh, other cities figured out how to shift their economies...eventually (e.g., Pittsburgh).  Detroit doesn't seem as bad off as it was when I was a kid.

That's the thing though, everyone was in denial until it was too late.  When I was a kid most adults thought the bottom with Detroit had been reached.  The reality was there was still another three decades of a decline left to go.  I'd agree that the worst is probably past now (especially post bankruptcy).  You can see there is interest in investing in downtown, Woodward and other parts of the city. 

[Plutonic Panda]

I mean we've gone to the fucking moon. I'm sure someone can come up with an idea that can balance out the loss of Detroit and its population.

Adjusted for inflation, the Apollo program cost about $300 billion.  And the money chiefly came from the U.S. federal government, because they saw it as being in the national interest during the Cold War to assert American dominance over the Soviet Union.  It also had the admiration, admiration, and awe of the American populace, with kids looking up to astronauts as national heroes.

I'm struggling to see how any of that could compare to the task of revitalizing Detroit.

It's more of an expression than anything, but what I'm trying to get at is not the cost but the ability to do insane jet. Humans are pretty good at it sometimes. And this really wasn't about Detroit. It's about New Orleans, but another poster made a point about the Detroit becoming a shithole more or less. I brought up the fact there's parts of it that are revitalizing.

[Plutonic Panda]

I mean we've gone to the fucking moon. I'm sure someone can come up with an idea that can balance out the loss of Detroit and its population.

Adjusted for inflation, the Apollo program cost about $300 billion.  And the money chiefly came from the U.S. federal government, because they saw it as being in the national interest during the Cold War to assert American dominance over the Soviet Union.  It also had the admiration, admiration, and awe of the American populace, with kids looking up to astronauts as national heroes.

I'm struggling to see how any of that could compare to the task of revitalizing Detroit.

A lot of consumer goods came out of NASA's development (e.g., velcro...).

Detroit economic issues were mainly being fully invested in automotive manufacturing.  The city had a huge problem once the domestic automakers figured out it was cheaper just to pay workers in other countries. 

Why don't they propose all these massive data centers that need huge amounts of water over there in Detroit in the empty land? Damn near unlimited source of water on the level of the lake rising? Let's reverse that.

[wxfree]

When New Orleans goes underwater, it isn't going to be revitalized later.  The disaster upon that city isn't just like other places that get damaged, and it isn't of a different scale, it's of a different nature.  Hurricanes kill and destroy, and then go away.  Tornadoes, floods, and fires do the same.  When New Orleans floods, it's forever.  The water doesn't recede.  You have to build a bowl around it and pump it dry.  In addition to temporary and permanent increases in water level, the ground is sinking.  Cutting up the region has increased erosion, pumping gas, oil, and water out of the ground (which is nothing but mud) makes it compress, and diverting the mud in the river, which is what built all of that swampy land, into the sea is preventing the natural rebuilding process.

This is not New York, Miami, or Houston, and it isn't like a blizzard that dumps tons of snow that later melts and runs off.  What people have always said about the West Coast breaking off and falling into the ocean, it's more like that.  It's land actually disappearing.  Not something that money and inspiration can fix, but the shape of the earth's surface changing.  It's been happening for a hundred years, but in spite of that people are somehow able to ignore it.

It isn't really a natural disaster, it's artificial.  That area can be lived on lightly, hunting shacks and small towns.  Building a major city, cutting up the land for boats, and pumping material out of the ground while also diverting the new land, the mud in the river, to the ocean, this is not sustainable.  If we give the area back to nature, nature will start the process over and rebuild the land, the way it built it the first time.  This means only small areas can be built on, and the rest of it floods frequently, the way it was in the beginning.  Some plants need fires to activate their seeds, even though fires also destroy.  This area needs floods, to deposit sediment and maintain the land, even though floods also destroy.  We've overexploited the resource.  This area is too fragile to be built on endlessly.  That will cause it to cease to exist.

[Beltway]

Given that oceans are rising at "only" a fifth of an inch per year, that's not very surprising.  It's more of a "raise temperature slowly to cook a frog" kind of deal.

Yeah, what are people expecting - a tsunami that makes the whole coastline go from the old normal to underwater with fish swimming above?

Tsunamis quickly recede back to normal -- see the many videos of the 2011 Japan tsunamis.

Way to completely miss the point

You brought up tsunamis. I stayed in‑frame.

[Beltway]

I mean we've gone to the fucking moon. I'm sure someone can come up with an idea that can balance out the loss of Detroit and its population.

Adjusted for inflation, the Apollo program cost about $300 billion.  And the money chiefly came from the U.S. federal government, because they saw it as being in the national interest during the Cold War to assert American dominance over the Soviet Union.  It also had the admiration, admiration, and awe of the American populace, with kids looking up to astronauts as national heroes. I'm struggling to see how any of that could compare to the task of revitalizing Detroit.

The whole manned space program was undergirded with the development of ICBM in the 1950s.

Redstone, Atlas and Titan II were ballistic missiles designed to deliver nuclear weapons in wartime. Lots of DOD money spent there.

It took additional work to man-rate them for Mercury and Gemini, but they were the foundation for developing an Apollo program.

The Saturn family were not designed for war, but they benefitted from the above.

[Plutonic Panda]

When New Orleans goes underwater, it isn't going to be revitalized later.  The disaster upon that city isn't just like other places that get damaged, and it isn't of a different scale, it's of a different nature.  Hurricanes kill and destroy, and then go away.  Tornadoes, floods, and fires do the same.  When New Orleans floods, it's forever.  The water doesn't recede.  You have to build a bowl around it and pump it dry.  In addition to temporary and permanent increases in water level, the ground is sinking.  Cutting up the region has increased erosion, pumping gas, oil, and water out of the ground (which is nothing but mud) makes it compress, and diverting the mud in the river, which is what built all of that swampy land, into the sea is preventing the natural rebuilding process.

This is not New York, Miami, or Houston, and it isn't like a blizzard that dumps tons of snow that later melts and runs off.  What people have always said about the West Coast breaking off and falling into the ocean, it's more like that.  It's land actually disappearing.  Not something that money and inspiration can fix, but the shape of the earth's surface changing.  It's been happening for a hundred years, but in spite of that people are somehow able to ignore it.

It isn't really a natural disaster, it's artificial.  That area can be lived on lightly, hunting shacks and small towns.  Building a major city, cutting up the land for boats, and pumping material out of the ground while also diverting the new land, the mud in the river, to the ocean, this is not sustainable.  If we give the area back to nature, nature will start the process over and rebuild the land, the way it built it the first time.  This means only small areas can be built on, and the rest of it floods frequently, the way it was in the beginning.  Some plants need fires to activate their seeds, even though fires also destroy.  This area needs floods, to deposit sediment and maintain the land, even though floods also destroy.  We've overexploited the resource.  This area is too fragile to be built on endlessly.  That will cause it to cease to exist.

It already has gone underwater lol and has been brought back.

[thspfc]

When New Orleans goes underwater, it isn't going to be revitalized later.  The disaster upon that city isn't just like other places that get damaged, and it isn't of a different scale, it's of a different nature.  Hurricanes kill and destroy, and then go away.  Tornadoes, floods, and fires do the same.  When New Orleans floods, it's forever.  The water doesn't recede.  You have to build a bowl around it and pump it dry.  In addition to temporary and permanent increases in water level, the ground is sinking.  Cutting up the region has increased erosion, pumping gas, oil, and water out of the ground (which is nothing but mud) makes it compress, and diverting the mud in the river, which is what built all of that swampy land, into the sea is preventing the natural rebuilding process.

This is not New York, Miami, or Houston, and it isn't like a blizzard that dumps tons of snow that later melts and runs off.  What people have always said about the West Coast breaking off and falling into the ocean, it's more like that.  It's land actually disappearing.  Not something that money and inspiration can fix, but the shape of the earth's surface changing.  It's been happening for a hundred years, but in spite of that people are somehow able to ignore it.

It isn't really a natural disaster, it's artificial.  That area can be lived on lightly, hunting shacks and small towns.  Building a major city, cutting up the land for boats, and pumping material out of the ground while also diverting the new land, the mud in the river, to the ocean, this is not sustainable.  If we give the area back to nature, nature will start the process over and rebuild the land, the way it built it the first time.  This means only small areas can be built on, and the rest of it floods frequently, the way it was in the beginning.  Some plants need fires to activate their seeds, even though fires also destroy.  This area needs floods, to deposit sediment and maintain the land, even though floods also destroy.  We've overexploited the resource.  This area is too fragile to be built on endlessly.  That will cause it to cease to exist.

It already has gone underwater lol and has been brought back.

You didn't read that, or you're just missing the obvious context that the Gulf is rising and the city is very much not.

[Rothman]

I mean we've gone to the fucking moon. I'm sure someone can come up with an idea that can balance out the loss of Detroit and its population.

Adjusted for inflation, the Apollo program cost about $300 billion.  And the money chiefly came from the U.S. federal government, because they saw it as being in the national interest during the Cold War to assert American dominance over the Soviet Union.  It also had the admiration, admiration, and awe of the American populace, with kids looking up to astronauts as national heroes. I'm struggling to see how any of that could compare to the task of revitalizing Detroit.

The whole manned space program was undergirded with the development of ICBM in the 1950s.

Redstone, Atlas and Titan II were ballistic missiles designed to deliver nuclear weapons in wartime. Lots of DOD money spent there.

It took additional work to man-rate them for Mercury and Gemini, but they were the foundation for developing an Apollo program.

The Saturn family were not designed for war, but they benefitted from the above.

Heh...given who was behind American rocket development, this line of logic would lead back to the V-2, uncomfortably.

[vdeane]

Given that oceans are rising at "only" a fifth of an inch per year, that's not very surprising.  It's more of a "raise temperature slowly to cook a frog" kind of deal.

Yeah, what are people expecting - a tsunami that makes the whole coastline go from the old normal to underwater with fish swimming above?

Tsunamis quickly recede back to normal -- see the many videos of the 2011 Japan tsunamis.

Way to completely miss the point

You brought up tsunamis. I stayed in‑frame.

No, you decided to engage in pedantry rather than evaluate the context of the conversation.

[Plutonic Panda]

New Orleans isn't going anywhere and the army corps of engineers isn't giving up on it. This is a silly discussion.

[Rothman]

New Orleans isn't going anywhere and the army corps of engineers isn't giving up on it. This is a silly discussion.

Not as silly as some on here recently.

[Urban Prairie Schooner]

Regardless of what ultimately happens to New Orleans and its environs, it had its best days in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s. I envy my parents who were around to see the city in its prime. But at least within my lifetime it has been nothing but unmitigated decline. The suburbs where I grew up were stable and prosperous in my youth, but even they have entered their terminal decline. Any remaining growth is concentrated on the Northshore where the flood threat is somewhat reduced.

The port facilities can be relocated. They don't need to be at that specific location and frankly should not be. The ports of Mobile and Houston have superior infrastructure to meet the demands of modern shipping. And Baton Rouge is far enough inland to take care of the rest.  The Mississippi River is primarily a conduit for bulk export cargo such as grain, coal, and gravel. While river shipping is cheaper than the alternatives, there are alternatives.

Frankly if New Orleans had a population that contributed on net to the American economy, it would be worth preserving. But most of the productive people left long ago, no longer willing to be dragged down by the morasses of incompetency that rule the place.

[Beltway]

Given that oceans are rising at "only" a fifth of an inch per year, that's not very surprising.  It's more of a "raise temperature slowly to cook a frog" kind of deal.

Yeah, what are people expecting - a tsunami that makes the whole coastline go from the old normal to underwater with fish swimming above?

Tsunamis quickly recede back to normal -- see the many videos of the 2011 Japan tsunamis.

Way to completely miss the point

You brought up tsunamis. I stayed in‑frame.

No, you decided to engage in pedantry rather than evaluate the context of the conversation.

You introduced a concrete image. I addressed it concretely. That's not pedantry.

[Beltway]

I mean we've gone to the fucking moon. I'm sure someone can come up with an idea that can balance out the loss of Detroit and its population.

Adjusted for inflation, the Apollo program cost about $300 billion.  And the money chiefly came from the U.S. federal government, because they saw it as being in the national interest during the Cold War to assert American dominance over the Soviet Union.  It also had the admiration, admiration, and awe of the American populace, with kids looking up to astronauts as national heroes. I'm struggling to see how any of that could compare to the task of revitalizing Detroit.

The whole manned space program was undergirded with the development of ICBM in the 1950s.
Redstone, Atlas and Titan II were ballistic missiles designed to deliver nuclear weapons in wartime. Lots of DOD money spent there.
It took additional work to man-rate them for Mercury and Gemini, but they were the foundation for developing an Apollo program.
The Saturn family were not designed for war, but they benefitted from the above.

Heh...given who was behind American rocket development, this line of logic would lead back to the V-2, uncomfortably.

Robert H. Goddard was an American physicist, inventor, and engineer credited with creating and building the world's first liquid-fueled rocket, which was successfully launched on March 16, 1926.

[Rothman]

I mean we've gone to the fucking moon. I'm sure someone can come up with an idea that can balance out the loss of Detroit and its population.

Adjusted for inflation, the Apollo program cost about $300 billion.  And the money chiefly came from the U.S. federal government, because they saw it as being in the national interest during the Cold War to assert American dominance over the Soviet Union.  It also had the admiration, admiration, and awe of the American populace, with kids looking up to astronauts as national heroes. I'm struggling to see how any of that could compare to the task of revitalizing Detroit.

The whole manned space program was undergirded with the development of ICBM in the 1950s.
Redstone, Atlas and Titan II were ballistic missiles designed to deliver nuclear weapons in wartime. Lots of DOD money spent there.
It took additional work to man-rate them for Mercury and Gemini, but they were the foundation for developing an Apollo program.
The Saturn family were not designed for war, but they benefitted from the above.

Heh...given who was behind American rocket development, this line of logic would lead back to the V-2, uncomfortably.

Robert H. Goddard was an American physicist, inventor, and engineer credited with creating and building the world's first liquid-fueled rocket, which was successfully launched on March 16, 1926.

I mean we've gone to the fucking moon. I'm sure someone can come up with an idea that can balance out the loss of Detroit and its population.

Adjusted for inflation, the Apollo program cost about $300 billion.  And the money chiefly came from the U.S. federal government, because they saw it as being in the national interest during the Cold War to assert American dominance over the Soviet Union.  It also had the admiration, admiration, and awe of the American populace, with kids looking up to astronauts as national heroes. I'm struggling to see how any of that could compare to the task of revitalizing Detroit.

The whole manned space program was undergirded with the development of ICBM in the 1950s.
Redstone, Atlas and Titan II were ballistic missiles designed to deliver nuclear weapons in wartime. Lots of DOD money spent there.
It took additional work to man-rate them for Mercury and Gemini, but they were the foundation for developing an Apollo program.
The Saturn family were not designed for war, but they benefitted from the above.

Heh...given who was behind American rocket development, this line of logic would lead back to the V-2, uncomfortably.

Robert H. Goddard was an American physicist, inventor, and engineer credited with creating and building the world's first liquid-fueled rocket, which was successfully launched on March 16, 1926.

Heh.  Glad you rethought putting so much weight on the 1950s...

[Beltway]

I mean we've gone to the fucking moon. I'm sure someone can come up with an idea that can balance out the loss of Detroit and its population.

Adjusted for inflation, the Apollo program cost about $300 billion.  And the money chiefly came from the U.S. federal government, because they saw it as being in the national interest during the Cold War to assert American dominance over the Soviet Union.  It also had the admiration, admiration, and awe of the American populace, with kids looking up to astronauts as national heroes. I'm struggling to see how any of that could compare to the task of revitalizing Detroit.

The whole manned space program was undergirded with the development of ICBM in the 1950s.
Redstone, Atlas and Titan II were ballistic missiles designed to deliver nuclear weapons in wartime. Lots of DOD money spent there.
It took additional work to man-rate them for Mercury and Gemini, but they were the foundation for developing an Apollo program.
The Saturn family were not designed for war, but they benefitted from the above.

Heh...given who was behind American rocket development, this line of logic would lead back to the V-2, uncomfortably.

Robert H. Goddard was an American physicist, inventor, and engineer credited with creating and building the world's first liquid-fueled rocket, which was successfully launched on March 16, 1926.

Heh.  Glad you rethought putting so much weight on the 1950s...

How about rethinking putting so much weight on the early 1940s. Battlefield weapons unguided by modern standards. Not even big enough for a dog.

[Scott5114]

You introduced a concrete image. I addressed it concretely. That's not pedantry.

How would you address an asphalt image?

[vdeane]

Given that oceans are rising at "only" a fifth of an inch per year, that's not very surprising.  It's more of a "raise temperature slowly to cook a frog" kind of deal.

Yeah, what are people expecting - a tsunami that makes the whole coastline go from the old normal to underwater with fish swimming above?

Tsunamis quickly recede back to normal -- see the many videos of the 2011 Japan tsunamis.

Way to completely miss the point

You brought up tsunamis. I stayed in‑frame.

No, you decided to engage in pedantry rather than evaluate the context of the conversation.

You introduced a concrete image. I addressed it concretely. That's not pedantry.

I refuse to believe that you are so stupid as to be unaware of the way the word "tsunami" is used in typical conversation, so I can only conclude that you are being deliberately obtuse, presumably so that you can feed some smug superiority complex.

[Rothman]

I mean we've gone to the fucking moon. I'm sure someone can come up with an idea that can balance out the loss of Detroit and its population.

Adjusted for inflation, the Apollo program cost about $300 billion.  And the money chiefly came from the U.S. federal government, because they saw it as being in the national interest during the Cold War to assert American dominance over the Soviet Union.  It also had the admiration, admiration, and awe of the American populace, with kids looking up to astronauts as national heroes. I'm struggling to see how any of that could compare to the task of revitalizing Detroit.

The whole manned space program was undergirded with the development of ICBM in the 1950s.
Redstone, Atlas and Titan II were ballistic missiles designed to deliver nuclear weapons in wartime. Lots of DOD money spent there.
It took additional work to man-rate them for Mercury and Gemini, but they were the foundation for developing an Apollo program.
The Saturn family were not designed for war, but they benefitted from the above.

Heh...given who was behind American rocket development, this line of logic would lead back to the V-2, uncomfortably.

Robert H. Goddard was an American physicist, inventor, and engineer credited with creating and building the world's first liquid-fueled rocket, which was successfully launched on March 16, 1926.

Heh.  Glad you rethought putting so much weight on the 1950s...

How about rethinking putting so much weight on the early 1940s. Battlefield weapons unguided by modern standards. Not even big enough for a dog.

Because the same scientist behind the V-2 rocket helped design the Saturn...

[Beltway]

How about rethinking putting so much weight on the early 1940s. Battlefield weapons unguided by modern standards. Not even big enough for a dog.

Because the same scientist behind the V-2 rocket helped design the Saturn...

Helped. Engineers on such programs are legion.

[Beltway]

Given that oceans are rising at "only" a fifth of an inch per year, that's not very surprising.  It's more of a "raise temperature slowly to cook a frog" kind of deal.

Yeah, what are people expecting - a tsunami that makes the whole coastline go from the old normal to underwater with fish swimming above?

Tsunamis quickly recede back to normal -- see the many videos of the 2011 Japan tsunamis.

Way to completely miss the point

You brought up tsunamis. I stayed in‑frame.

No, you decided to engage in pedantry rather than evaluate the context of the conversation.

You introduced a concrete image. I addressed it concretely. That's not pedantry.

I refuse to believe that you are so stupid as to be unaware of the way the word "tsunami" is used in typical conversation, so I can only conclude that you are being deliberately obtuse, presumably so that you can feed some smug superiority complex.

If you meant "tidal wave" in the conversational sense, fine -- but once someone uses a physical image, I'm going to treat it as a physical image. That's not pedantry, that's just staying inside the frame provided.

[Rothman]

How about rethinking putting so much weight on the early 1940s. Battlefield weapons unguided by modern standards. Not even big enough for a dog.

Because the same scientist behind the V-2 rocket helped design the Saturn...

Helped. Engineers on such programs are legion.

Chaired...C'mon, Beltway.  Let's not be disingenuous as you pursue pedantry.