ACCESS Oklahoma

[Bobby5280]

I wonder if they could take a page out of Texas' book, signing OK-37 on the frontage roads (also naming them West Indian Hills Road) but then putting the turnpike down the median maybe with a different number or even an Interstate designation.

If the Access Oklahoma plan can go forward with these new OKC toll roads as envisioned ODOT and OTA will have to re-think that odd-ball I-240 re-designation. I don't see any problem with I-240 overlapping all of the Kilpatrick Turnpike. If the Kickapoo Turnpike is extended down to Purcell and possibly North near Guthrie it would be far more logical to give it an I-x35 designation, something like I-435 or I-835. That way I-35 traffic going thru OKC would see the Kickapoo Turnpike as a high speed alternative. That East-West Connector could be another I-x35 route or even an I-x44 route.

[Plutonic Panda]

I wish they'd sign I-44 via Kilpatrick turnpike and SH-74 south.

As for the I-240 they should scrap that in favor of signing the Kickapoo Turnpike I-635 in hopes of a eventual "second"  outer loop.

[Cerlin]

I wish they'd sign I-44 via Kilpatrick turnpike and SH-74 south.

As for the I-240 they should scrap that in favor of signing the Kickapoo Turnpike I-635 in hopes of a eventual "second"  outer loop.

I'd argue it'd make more sense for A 435 or 835 designation, as 635 is not only used for the outer loop for both Kansas City and DFW, but is also the only x35 designation in Texas. Having 3 major metro areas in a row with an I-635 might make things confusing for less-aware motorists. But that's moving towards Fictional Highways discussion anyway.

[Bobby5280]

I'd use an I-635 or I-644 designation on the East to West Connector Turnpike.

[Scott5114]

I wish they'd sign I-44 via Kilpatrick turnpike and SH-74 south.

As for the I-240 they should scrap that in favor of signing the Kickapoo Turnpike I-635 in hopes of a eventual "second"  outer loop.

I'd argue it'd make more sense for A 435 or 835 designation, as 635 is not only used for the outer loop for both Kansas City and DFW, but is also the only x35 designation in Texas. Having 3 major metro areas in a row with an I-635 might make things confusing for less-aware motorists. But that's moving towards Fictional Highways discussion anyway.

435 is the KC outer loop. 635 is a connector further in.

I'd prefer 735/835/935 for the Indian Hills connector, since those numbers aren't used anywhere. For the Kickapoo south extension, I-140 or I-440 would be appropriate. We shouldn't use x44s in Oklahoma City because those numbers are the only ones available for Lawton and Tulsa (for now).

Realistically I think the most likely option for the east-west turnpike is OK-337.

[sprjus4]

If anything is going to receive a 3di, I'd say it should be the Kickapoo. A southern extension, combined with a potential northern one, would create a seamless north-south I-35 bypass.

[Scott5114]

Norman Mayor Breea Clark, who is against the turnpike, appears to have been defeated for re-election (results are still unofficial, but she is down by more than 6 percentage points, so I wouldn't expect the results to change). Her opponent, Larry Heikkila, has said he has been working with state officials to "address the negative impacts" the turnpikes will have on Norman.

[In_Correct]

Also From The News:

House Bill 4088, authored by Rep. Kevin Wallace, R-Wellston, will authorize the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority to construct a toll road from Interstate 44 near the Kickapoo interchange to Interstate 35.

Rep. Jacob Rosecrants, D-Norman, an opponent of the turnpike expansions, cautioned residents in the Lake Arcadia area that they need to find out more about the legislation before it is too late.

It's confusing, it's vague,"  Rosecrants said. "I imagine its intentionally vague. You think about big agencies, that's how it works. If I were them, I would be concerned. They need to get loud if they don't want a turnpike."

Unlike prior toll road legislation, the corridor requested by Wallace was not formally requested by the turnpike authority. OTA spokeswoman Jessica Brown said Wallace did have a conversation with Joe Echelle, the agency's deputy director but did not disclose details of the visit.

[Bobby5280]

If anything is going to receive a 3di, I'd say it should be the Kickapoo. A southern extension, combined with a potential northern one, would create a seamless north-south I-35 bypass.

Which is why I believe the Kickapoo Turnpike should have only one route number on its entire length. That could be something like "I-835" or "OK-335".

I don't like I-240 running on part of the Kickapoo Turnpike at all. Splitting the route into two or three different Interstate designations would be potentially confusing to motorists. A fully extended Kickapoo Turnpike should act as a relief valve for I-35 within OKC. If that substantially long turnpike attaches to I-35 at both ends, and has a high speed limit of 75mph or 80mph, it may alleviate some of the burden on stretches of I-35 in OKC. Some segments of I-35 are badly in need of improvement, such as the one just North of downtown. There are plans to widen it. Further improvements would be easier to accomplish if the Kickapoo Turnpike served as a complete relief route for I-35.

I'd prefer 735/835/935 for the Indian Hills connector, since those numbers aren't used anywhere. For the Kickapoo south extension, I-140 or I-440 would be appropriate. We shouldn't use x44s in Oklahoma City because those numbers are the only ones available for Lawton and Tulsa (for now).

If given an Interstate designation the East to West Connector would need to take an even number since both ends are connecting to superhighways. The Kickapoo Turnpike would be more likely to gain an Interstate number than the East to West Connector (since there are already plans to plaster I-240 shields on part of it). So if the East to West Connector was given an Interstate name it would very likely be connecting to Interstates at both ends, hence the need for an even number. I think "I-635" makes the most sense even if there is another I-635 nearby in Dallas.

If Lawton ever received any I-x44 designations they would likely be odd-numbered spur routes, nothing like "I-644" or "I-844." That's why I suggested the "I-644" designation as another possibility for the East to West Connector. It would be a stretch to stick an "I-640" designation on the East to West Connector. That would only be possible with I-240 signed on all the Kilpatrick Turnpike. That way "I-640" could begin on I-240/Airport Road, be signed over the Tri-City Connector going around Will Rogers Airport, overlap I-44 across the Canadian River and then be signed over the East to West Connector.

[CoreySamson]

I personally wonder if the new turnpikes would be better received if they were marketed as "tornado evacuation routes" . Wording can drastically affect the public's opinion on a project.

[Bobby5280]

When a tornado warning is issued the biggest piece of advice given to the public is to find safe shelter immediately. That doesn't mean hop in the car and contribute to a sudden traffic jam on a major highway. Being stuck in traffic on a super highway would be one of the most horrible places to be caught by a tornado.

If I know a storm dumping baseball size hail is going to be pounding Lawton 20 minutes from now I might be tempted to jump in my truck and try to drive out of the way of the storm's path.

[US 89]

When a tornado warning is issued the biggest piece of advice given to the public is to find safe shelter immediately. That doesn't mean hop in the car and contribute to a sudden traffic jam on a major highway. Being stuck in traffic on a super highway would be one of the most horrible places to be caught by a tornado.

OKC has already had a very close near-miss with this, with the 2013 El Reno tornado - the widest tornado on record and often considered one of the strongest tornadoes ever observed, which thankfully lifted right as it was about to enter the western OKC metro area.

As the tornadoes approached the Oklahoma City metro, thousands of residents decided to leave the area for safety, possibly due to the still fresh memories of the devastation caused by the EF5 tornado that struck Moore on May 20. Already congested with rush hour traffic, Interstates 35, 40, 44 and 240, became "parking lots" as the storms neared. Residents reported the highways to be a scene of chaos, "people were going southbound in the northbound lanes. Everybody was running for their lives." It has been suggested that the evacuation was partially caused by a controversial call to action on-air by KFOR-TV chief meteorologist Mike Morgan, who suggested on-air during coverage of the storm — as the tornado was projected to track into Oklahoma City — that residents without underground storm shelters or safe rooms get into their cars and evacuate south of the track. This advice was contrary to the recommended plan to go to an interior room, bathtub or closet with no windows if no basement or other underground shelter is available. These locations are typically much safer than an automobile in tornadic winds. Dr. Jeff Masters of Weather Underground stated that had the tornado tracked directly over one of the congested highways, the death toll could have easily exceeded 500.

[Scott5114]

I remember watching that event live and immediately thinking "Morgan is gonna get people killed with this" and deciding then and there not to take KFOR seriously for anything ever again. KFOR is also responsible for the "ain't nobody got time for that" meme, which, while it's hilarious and I love it, really, that was the eyewitness interview you wanted to run? KFOR is a bunch of clowns. So keep that in mind when you see a KFOR link in this thread (there have been a few).

[Bobby5280]

OKC has already had a very close near-miss with this, with the 2013 El Reno tornado - the widest tornado on record and often considered one of the strongest tornadoes ever observed, which thankfully lifted right as it was about to enter the western OKC metro area.

The May 2013 Moore Tornado mentioned in the quote was a twister strong enough it would have been rated an F-5 on the old Fujita scale. It touched down in Newcastle and immediately turned into a monster. Its first impressive act was wiping out part of the old truss railroad bridge next to I-44 on the Canadian River. Entire neighborhoods worth of homes were totally demolished farther East. You can see the devastation along almost all the tornado's path in Google Earth within the historical imagery slider, just scroll it to 5/2013. Almost everything has been re-built (and then some) since then.

I'll never forget the May 3, 1999 tornado. That was a true F-5 with the highest wind speeds ever recorded in a tornado, over 300mph. The path where it crossed I-44 South of Newcastle was quite remarkable. It's as if the tornado acted like a bulldozer, removing all the grass and a lot of top-soil. Moore got badly hit by that one too. That same tornadic super-cell utterly destroyed the outlet mall in Stroud farther east. Nearly 23 years later the concrete slab is all that remains of that place. Maybe the OK State government should consider turning that into a memorial park dedicated to storm victims or something.

[rte66man]

OKC has already had a very close near-miss with this, with the 2013 El Reno tornado - the widest tornado on record and often considered one of the strongest tornadoes ever observed, which thankfully lifted right as it was about to enter the western OKC metro area.

The May 2013 Moore Tornado mentioned in the quote was a twister strong enough it would have been rated an F-5 on the old Fujita scale. It touched down in Newcastle and immediately turned into a monster. Its first impressive act was wiping out part of the old truss railroad bridge next to I-44 on the Canadian River.

No, that was never a RR bridge. It was US62/US277 from the time it was built about 1929 until the HE Bailey connector was opened in 1964. They left it standing because it carried utilities.

[Bobby5280]

I don't know why I always thought that was an out of service railroad bridge, even when it was 100% intact. It's probably from seeing so many other railroad bridges across rivers having heavy truss structures like that one. But, yeah, seeing that bridge going back to the 1980's I thought it originally carried railroad traffic.

[Plutonic Panda]

I didn't even realize this had to make it out of the transportation committee but news 9 isn't exactly known for having the best reporting. I am not quite understanding what is happening here. Are these bills the ones being proposed to stop this project or are they something that is necessary for the projects to proceed?

https://www.news9.com/story/624f62c7e725bc070c098db6/turnpike-project-approval-delayed-in-transportation-committee-

[In_Correct]

From The News Also:

Wallace, did not return multiple calls for comment, but in presenting his bill on the House floor, he predicted there will be a time when the turnpike expansion near Arcadia will be necessary.

Citing growth and the sprawl of development from Oklahoma County, Wallace said he filed the bill after having conversations with turnpike authority representatives.

Wallace also noted the public outcry about the construction of the Kickapoo Turnpike in eastern Oklahoma County and said he wants to see the OTA start the planning for this route as soon as possible should his bill become law.

I think it’s wise to go ahead and plan for the future, and to go ahead and start lining out the route, acquiring the right of way before any more development occurs in the next however many years before they actually decide to break ground,” he said.

The OTA, which has promised to be transparent with ACCESS Oklahoma, declined a request by The Oklahoman to detail Echelle’s response to Wallace’s push for the Arcadia area turnpike or his request for quick acquisition of right-of-way.

During his introduction of the bill, Wallace said he doesn’t see the turnpike coming to fruition in the next 15 years. He expects the work won’t start until after the OTA completes the ACCESS Oklahoma plan. He said by setting the route now, the OTA won’t have to disrupt as much development down the line.

[rte66man]

I didn't even realize this had to make it out of the transportation committee but news 9 isn't exactly known for having the best reporting. I am not quite understanding what is happening here. Are these bills the ones being proposed to stop this project or are they something that is necessary for the projects to proceed?

https://www.news9.com/story/624f62c7e725bc070c098db6/turnpike-project-approval-delayed-in-transportation-committee-

Yes, the Legislature has to put authorizations for each in law.  Doesn't mean they will ever be built (see Duncan to Davis, Okarche to Watonga, etc.) but they can't be built without the authorizations.

[Bobby5280]

"In the situation where you have 500 to 700 homes being eliminated and there's only 70 some housing houses for sale in Norman, then that ought to send a red flag,"  Boren said.

Where the hell did Mayor Boren come up with that 500-700 homes number? Has she ever driven along West Indian Hills Road to see what's actually built there? Between I-44 and I-35 the biggest impact to property would be over in Newcastle with the cluster of industrial buildings next to the OK-37/I-44 interchange. The rest of that segment is vacant except for a couple properties. Along the entire proposed East to West connector path it doesn't look like more than a couple dozen properties would be affected (mainly East of I-35). The South extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike wouldn't affect many properties either.

I think the OTA has picked pretty much the best possible paths for both turnpikes. It would be a real shame if the state government blocked them from getting built.

[Scott5114]

Boren is a state senator, not a mayor.

[Bobby5280]

My mistake. Still, where did Senator Boren get that 500-700 homes number? That's really severe misinformation.

I guess she's counting on a lot of Oklahomans being really bad at geography and not bothering to look at a resource like Google Earth to see what properties are actually located within the proposed turnpike path. Otherwise her statement would be flat out gaslighting.

[kphoger]

I guess she's counting on ... being really bad at geography ... not bothering to look at a resource ...

Two safe things to count on, no matter what state it's in.

[Scott5114]

Americans taking something a politician says at face value, because it matches how they already feel about something, and not doing the due diligence to determine whether it's actually true or not? Shocking!

[Bobby5280]

Americans being both gullible as hell and addicted to biased outrage could lead to our democracy being replaced with a totalitarian dictatorship. The general public will willingly, foolishly let it happen.

Still, one might think the residents of Norman and Moore might be familiar enough with W Indian Hills Road to already know hardly anything is built alongside it. Then again, I don't think all the residents of Norman and Moore are being heard regarding the topic. Only the anti-turnpike people appear to have a voice in this matter. I keep thinking about what Gene Love, Chairman of the OTA board told me: there is a lot of people who want these two turnpikes to get built.