Daylight Savings Time (2022): Once And For All!!!

[elsmere241]

I've floated the idea of shifting the time zone lines halfway over, and having four about equal-sized zones in the lower 48.  They would range from UT-7 (PDT/MST) to UT-4 (EDT/AST).  I can't figure out which zone to put greater Kansas City in, though.

[tolbs17]

I support permanent standard time

[kphoger]

Admittedly I'm not completely informed on how this new law would work if a state wanted to go to permanent standard time as opposed to permanent daylight saving time.  I'm assuming other states could join Hawaii and Arizona in observing permanent standard time?  Like i could never see a state like Massachusetts wanting to observe permanent standard time (again, 3:30AM dawn in Boston sounds insane)... but maybe a state like Michigan or Idaho would want to switch?

See below.

I looked at the Senate bill last night and it appears to me to say that only the states and territories that currently opt out of DST will be able to opt out of the new system. Here is the link to the text. The key text is down at the bottom under "State Exemption":

"(b) Standard time for certain states and areas.–The standard time for a State that has exempted itself from the provisions of section 3(a) of the Uniform Time Act of 1966 (15 U.S.C. 260a(a)), as in effect on the day before November 5, 2023, pursuant to such section or an area of a State that has exempted such area from such provisions pursuant to such section shall be, as such State considers appropriate–

"(1) the standard time for such State or area, as the case may be, pursuant to subsection (a) of this section; or

"(2) the standard time for such State or area, as the case may be, pursuant to subsection (a) of this section as it was in effect on the day before November 5, 2023." .

[hotdogPi]

The way I'm reading it, a state can exempt itself this year or most of next year, and it will still be valid. Am I misreading it?

[1995hoo]

Admittedly I'm not completely informed on how this new law would work if a state wanted to go to permanent standard time as opposed to permanent daylight saving time.  I'm assuming other states could join Hawaii and Arizona in observing permanent standard time?  Like i could never see a state like Massachusetts wanting to observe permanent standard time (again, 3:30AM dawn in Boston sounds insane)... but maybe a state like Michigan or Idaho would want to switch?

See below.

I looked at the Senate bill last night and it appears to me to say that only the states and territories that currently opt out of DST will be able to opt out of the new system. Here is the link to the text. The key text is down at the bottom under "State Exemption":

"(b) Standard time for certain states and areas.–The standard time for a State that has exempted itself from the provisions of section 3(a) of the Uniform Time Act of 1966 (15 U.S.C. 260a(a)), as in effect on the day before November 5, 2023, pursuant to such section or an area of a State that has exempted such area from such provisions pursuant to such section shall be, as such State considers appropriate–

"(1) the standard time for such State or area, as the case may be, pursuant to subsection (a) of this section; or

"(2) the standard time for such State or area, as the case may be, pursuant to subsection (a) of this section as it was in effect on the day before November 5, 2023." .

I looked at it again and my reading has changed very slightly. It's not just states and territories that have already opted out, as I thought before. Rather, it's states and territories that either have already opted out or will have opted out by November 5, 2023. I'm not sure what the chances are of anyone actually doing the latter part of that, so as a practical matter my prior statement may turn out to be an accurate reading. If a state or territory chose to opt out of DST between now and November 5, 2023, the new time law would not apply in that state. So, to use tradephoric's example, if Michigan or Idaho opted out of DST later this year, they would then stay on their current standard time–that is, their clocks would be one hour behind what they would be under the new law–when the new rule takes effect on November 5, 2023. (The reason for that date: It's the date on which the clocks would otherwise go back next year.)

[kphoger]

If this does pass, then can we all at least just change time zones, rather than calling it DST?

[tolbs17]

If this does pass, then can we all at least just change time zones, rather than calling it DST?

Yes. Make it so that the whole state is in one timezone such as Indiana and Tennessee.

[1995hoo]

If this does pass, then can we all at least just change time zones, rather than calling it DST?

It would just redefine the new time as "standard time" for the respective time zones. In other words, Eastern Standard Time would be defined as UTC minus four, rather than UTC minus five as it is now.

[kphoger]

If this does pass, then can we all at least just change time zones, rather than calling it DST?

Yes. Make it so that the whole state is in one timezone such as Indiana and Tennessee.

That's not what I meant.  I just meant that everyone on CT (Central Time, not Connecticut) would transition to permanent EST rather than permanent CDT.  I think's dumb to no longer have any time called "standard".

[tolbs17]

If this does pass, then can we all at least just change time zones, rather than calling it DST?

Yes. Make it so that the whole state is in one timezone such as Indiana and Tennessee.

That's not what I meant.  I just meant that everyone on CT (Central Time, not Connecticut) would transition to permanent EST rather than permanent CDT.  I think's dumb to no longer have any time called "standard".

I get it now.

Now this is a graph to know when the sun rises and sets. I wouldn't want darkness at 6:45am tbh. That's my usual time of waking up. Mornings are already dark enough in the winter. No need to make them even more darker.

https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/greenville-nc

[webny99]

I wouldn't want darkness at 6:45am tbh. That's my usual time of waking up.

Better not move north, then.

[tolbs17]

I wouldn't want darkness at 6:45am tbh. That's my usual time of waking up.

Better not move north, then.

Lived in New Jersey, and mornings are not that much different compared to here.

[webny99]

I wouldn't want darkness at 6:45am tbh. That's my usual time of waking up.

Better not move north, then.

Lived in New Jersey, and mornings are not that much different compared to here.

Because NJ is slightly east. I'm almost due north of Greenville, and it's dark at 6:45 for about 3-4 months of the year.

[tolbs17]

I wouldn't want darkness at 6:45am tbh. That's my usual time of waking up.

Better not move north, then.

Lived in New Jersey, and mornings are not that much different compared to here.

Because NJ is slightly east. I'm almost due north of Greenville, and it's dark at 6:45 for about 3-4 months of the year.

Another reason why Permanent DST should NOT be practiced.

[1995hoo]

If this does pass, then can we all at least just change time zones, rather than calling it DST?

Yes. Make it so that the whole state is in one timezone such as Indiana and Tennessee.

That's not what I meant.  I just meant that everyone on CT (Central Time, not Connecticut) would transition to permanent EST rather than permanent CDT.  I think's dumb to no longer have any time called "standard".

The proposed statute gets around that by calling the new time zones "standard time." People are referring to it as "permanent DST" now because it's the best way to analogize it to what we already know, but from a technical standpoint the bill just redefines standard time as one hour ahead of what it already is. In theory, nothing would be stopping Congress from then deciding to re-institute DST (on whatever schedule, doesn't matter) based on the new standard time zones, such that Eastern Daylight Time would be UTC minus three because Eastern Standard Time would be UTC minus four.

[hbelkins]

If this does pass, then can we all at least just change time zones, rather than calling it DST?

Yes. Make it so that the whole state is in one timezone such as Indiana and Tennessee.

Both of those states are split between Eastern and Central.

[bm7]

The problem with permanent DST is it messes up the time for the whole year. There's a reason why there's a standard time: If done correctly, time zones make it so that solar noon happens on average within half an hour of 12 pm local time. But because of daylight savings, the middle of the day gets pushed back an hour, which means in many places noon doesn't happen until after 1:30 pm! If that's made permanent, many places will never have noon occur within even an hour of 12 pm. You can see this illustrated well on this site: https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/oklahoma-city

In this example you can see that noon occurs in Oklahoma City during the winter in the range of 12:13 pm to 12:44 pm, pretty reasonable. But if daylight savings is permanent? It'll never happen before 1:13 pm and would happen as late as 1:44 pm!

[kphoger]

Make it so that the whole state is in one timezone such as Indiana and Tennessee.

Both of those states are split between Eastern and Central.

I think that's what he meant.  Basically:

Make it so the whole state–such as Indiana and Tennessee–in in one time zone.

[NWI_Irish96]

Make it so that the whole state is in one timezone such as Indiana and Tennessee.

Both of those states are split between Eastern and Central.

I think that's what he meant.  Basically:

Make it so the whole state–such as Indiana and Tennessee–in in one time zone.

As long as Chicago is on a different time zone from Cincinnati and Louisville, that's going to be a problem. The northwestern counties are going to insist on being on the same time as Chicago and the southeastern counties are going to insist on being on the same time as Cincy and Louisville.

[skluth]

Make it so that the whole state is in one timezone such as Indiana and Tennessee.

Both of those states are split between Eastern and Central.

I think that's what he meant.  Basically:

Make it so the whole state–such as Indiana and Tennessee–in in one time zone.

As long as Chicago is on a different time zone from Cincinnati and Louisville, that's going to be a problem. The northwestern counties are going to insist on being on the same time as Chicago and the southeastern counties are going to insist on being on the same time as Cincy and Louisville.

There are also states like Michigan where the western half of the UP is more economically tied to Wisconsin than the Lower Peninsula. Much like El Paso is more tied to New Mexico than the rest of Texas; they're even not on the Texas power grid. Keeping the west parts of the UP and the West Texas Panhandle in their current time zones makes more sense than keeping their entire states together in one time zone.

[tradephoric]

Here is a cool interactive website that determines what percentage of daylight you soak in based on what time you wake up and what time you go to bed.  Then it shows how many waking hours of sunlight you would lose throughout the year if DST was abolished. 

https://qz.com/537672/how-much-daylight-does-daylight-saving-time-save/

I love the concept of this interactive site but there are a few major problems:
#1.  The data assumes you are located in New York.
#2.  They only compare permanent standard time to the current status quo.  The site doesn't consider the effects permanent DST would have. 
#3.  It doesn't allow you to input a bedtime earlier than 9 p.m.
#4.  Based on #3, it's impossible to actually lose waking hours of daylight assuming DST was abolished since in New York the sun never sets after 9PM (whether you are on DST or not).  So essentially no matter what times you pick for waking up and going to bed, you are always going to gain hours of sunlight with DST (or at worst break even).

[tolbs17]

The problem with permanent DST is it messes up the time for the whole year. There's a reason why there's a standard time: If done correctly, time zones make it so that solar noon happens on average within half an hour of 12 pm local time. But because of daylight savings, the middle of the day gets pushed back an hour, which means in many places noon doesn't happen until after 1:30 pm! If that's made permanent, many places will never have noon occur within even an hour of 12 pm. You can see this illustrated well on this site: https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/oklahoma-city

In this example you can see that noon occurs in Oklahoma City during the winter in the range of 12:13 pm to 12:44 pm, pretty reasonable. But if daylight savings is permanent? It'll never happen before 1:13 pm and would happen as late as 1:44 pm!

Another downside indeed. See Nome Alaska.

[kalvado]

If this does pass, then can we all at least just change time zones, rather than calling it DST?

It would just redefine the new time as "standard time" for the respective time zones. In other words, Eastern Standard Time would be defined as UTC minus four, rather than UTC minus five as it is now.

How about some new designation? EFT - Eastern Freedom Time, for example? Or Eastern Patriotic Time, maybe... 

[CoreySamson]

Teenagers would love permanent DST as they constantly sleep in till noon.  The sun has already been up for 3 hours by the time they wake up anyways.  At least permanent DST would limit the amount of daylight they waste.

I actually wouldn't. I like waking up early because I'm more productive in the morning; it's just that I happen to be trapped in a body whose hormones like going to sleep and waking up late. I need to get more disciplined about going to bed earlier! 

[Duke87]

The problem with permanent DST is it messes up the time for the whole year. There's a reason why there's a standard time: If done correctly, time zones make it so that solar noon happens on average within half an hour of 12 pm local time. But because of daylight savings, the middle of the day gets pushed back an hour, which means in many places noon doesn't happen until after 1:30 pm! If that's made permanent, many places will never have noon occur within even an hour of 12 pm. You can see this illustrated well on this site: https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/oklahoma-city

In this example you can see that noon occurs in Oklahoma City during the winter in the range of 12:13 pm to 12:44 pm, pretty reasonable. But if daylight savings is permanent? It'll never happen before 1:13 pm and would happen as late as 1:44 pm!

Have to ask the question: so what?

There is this common argument that DST is bad because it desynchronizes solar noon from clock noon... okay, but why is that bad? There is no cosmic law that the sun "should" peak in the sky approximately when the clock reads 12:00. Clocks are human inventions and the numbers on them are arbitrary.

tradephoric, you're using a strawman argument. Nobody is trying to get rid of DST in the summer. The two options are leave it the way it is or go to permanent DST.

You didn't read yesterday's Washington Post article then.  After the Senate voted unanimously to make daylight saving time permanent, the American Academy of Sleep Medicine is arguing that permanent standard time would be better than permanent daylight saving time...

Sleep experts say Senate has it wrong: Standard time, not daylight saving, should be permanent
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2022/03/16/daylight-saving-bill-health-effects/

And here is why I ultimately expect this to go nowhere. The senate may have unanimously passed a bill about this while no one was paying attention, but once news of that broke the usual cacophany both for and against has erupted and the house will not be able to handle the matter in absence of said cacophany as the senate did. The ensuing debate will kill the bill for lack of consensus and that will be that.