Daylight Savings Time (2022): Once And For All!!!

[Scott5114]

Apparently, the Senate seems to have passed this change on accident:

When we wrote up the newly passed Senate bill that would theoretically establish year-round Daylight Savings Time, we observed that there was no indication this was coming down the pike, and also that nobody seemed to know why the senators had all of a sudden gotten on board with the idea, en masse.

It turns out that we weren't the only ones who were surprised and a bit confused. In fact, most of the senators were, as well. The bill was passed by unanimous consent, which is really the only way for there to be a unanimous vote in the Senate. What was not publicly known on Tuesday was that Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) asked for unanimous consent, and expected Sen. Roger Wicker (R-MS) to object. The Floridian didn't actually expect to secure passage, he just wanted to be able to send out an "I'm trying" tweet and press release in an election year. And because Rubio (and everyone else) expected an objection, there wasn't much communication among members of the Senate (or among their staffs), and most members weren't even on the floor of the chamber when the matter came up. That meant that when Wicker, in a rather big surprise, decided he didn't care enough to object, the Senate inadvertently approved the bill unanimously. A sizable number of senators only found out about it when they were asked by reporters, or when they read about it online.

It's hard to believe this is for real, and is not, say, a Marx Brothers short ("Oops! Sens. Groucho and Harpo accidentally declared war on Canada!"). In any case, Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) has put the legislation on the back burner for now. If she wants to kill it, or if Joe Biden does, there's now plenty of justification for them to do so.

*citation needed*

I have a different concern.  Can the Senate pass a bill by unanimous consent without a quorum?  The text says that most of the members were not on the floor.  Is that an exaggeration?  Can a quorum be made up of people who are in the building, having the option to be on the floor even if they choose not to be?  How did a bill pass with "most" of the members not on the floor?

According to Senate rules, a quorum is assumed to be present until it is proven otherwise. There are two ways this is done–the first is done by a "quorum call" which is essentially just calling attendance, alphabetically, like they used to do in elementary school. Any senator has the right to ask for a quorum call (and in fact, invoking a quorum call is a tactic often used to stall for time, both for benign reasons like allowing last-minute negotiations to conclude before an item is reached on the agenda, or for less benign purposes of obstruction). An in-progress quorum call can be stopped by unanimous consent so long as the 100th senator's name has not yet been called.

The other way to cause the absence of a quorum to be officially recorded is to force a roll call vote on a motion. That is, for a member to object to a unanimous consent vote, which then causes the presiding officer to begin calling for yea and nay votes on the motion. Such a tally will of course reveal the lack of a quorum and the Senate must either adjourn or wait for the presence of a quorum to be established through a roll-call vote.

In this case, what was expected to happen was that Senator Wicker would object to the bill, and then Senator Rubio probably would have moved to table the bill and move on to other unimportant business. Since Wicker did not object, and unanimous consent was granted, the lack of a quorum was never procedurally established. So it passed.

[1995hoo]

Some of the comments in this thread are making me wonder how some of y'all set your thermostats. We have ours set to a lower temperature at night for sleeping than we do during the day, and that's true both in winter and summer. Assuming we're home or are only going out for a little while (grocery store or similar), during the winter the heat is set to 70° during the way and drops to 58° at 10:00 PM; it reaches 70° again at 7:30 on weekdays and 8:30 on weekends. To be clear, the temperature never drops as low as 58°; rather, the thermostat is set low enough so that the heat will not kick on during the night because the temperature will be higher than what's programmed. That, in turn, means it doesn't blow hot air at night (which wakes me up). During the summer, it's set to 78° during the day, goes down to 76° at 6:00 PM for the evening, and drops to 73° for overnight.

(This morning it was 66° when I got up because I had overridden the program over the weekend due to the warm weather and I forgot to change it back last night.)

It used to be a more complex setup when we both worked downtown; the heat went down to 60° on weekdays because it makes no sense to heat the house when nobody's home and it went back up to 68° by 6:00 PM. Now that we're both home during the day I changed that, and since we replaced our HVAC some years back the new one is more efficient than the old such that I can run it at a warmer setting without a huge bill (plus the vet said 70° is better for our cat, who has only lived with us since last November).

So tradephoric's point about sunlight in late afternoon is largely irrelevant for us. The system would work more or less the same most of the winter and it might have a slightly larger load in the morning due to the lack of sunlight.

[hotdogPi]

Just wondering: why do temperatures in the 50s feel fine outdoors but not indoors?

[SectorZ]

Just wondering: why do temperatures in the 50s feel fine outdoors but not indoors?

That one has gotten me my entire life. All winter I have the heat inside at 64 to 68 and I wear a t-shirt under a sweatshirt. Put me outside in those temps I'm wearing shorts and a t-shirt.

[kalvado]

Just wondering: why do temperatures in the 50s feel fine outdoors but not indoors?

More clothes, more movements. Sunbathing is not recommended in those conditions.

[tradephoric]

Of the metropolitan areas in the United States with over 1 million people; Detroit, Grand Rapids, and Indianapolis are the only cities that see sunrises after 8AM during the winter.  Grand Rapids, Michigan is the most extreme example with sunrises as late as 8:13AM.  With permanent DST, sunrise would get pushed back to 9:13AM but that's about the worst case scenario for anyone living in a metropolitan area of over 1 million people.   

[hotdogPi]

Of the metropolitan areas in the United States with over 1 million people; Detroit, Grand Rapids, and Indianapolis are the only cities that see sunrises after 8AM during the winter.  Grand Rapids, Michigan is the most extreme example with sunrises as late as 8:13AM.  With permanent DST, sunrise would get pushed back to 9:13AM but that's about the worst case scenario for anyone living in a metropolitan area of over 1 million people.   

If we switch, Canada will probably switch, too. Toronto is a huge metro, and while it's not quite 8 AM, 7:47 is pretty close to 8.

[tradephoric]

During Extended Daylight Saving Time, electricity savings generally occurred over a three- to five-hour period in the evening with small increases in usage during the early-morning hours. On a daily percentage basis, electricity savings were slightly greater during the March (spring) extension of Extended Daylight Saving Time than the November (fall) extension. On a regional basis, some southern portions of the United States exhibited slightly smaller impacts of Extended Daylight Saving Time on energy savings compared to the northern regions, a result possibly due to a small, offsetting increase in household air conditioning usage.
https://www1.eere.energy.gov/ba/pba/pdfs/edst_national_energy_consumption.pdf

A slight increase in energy usage in the morning was offset by a three- to five-hour period of electricity savings in the evening when DST was extended in 2007 according to the U.S Department of Energy.  Northern regions seemed to benefit more from the extended DST than southern regions; arguably because southern regions had offsetting increases in household air conditioning usage.  But what are the results if DST was extended even further into the winter months (ie. made permanent).  In January how many Florida residents are air conditioning their homes?  In Minneapolis, how much more energy does it take to heat their homes when the heat generating sun comes up an hour later?  Are any potential morning increases offset in the evenings when the sun stays out an hour later? 

[kalvado]

During Extended Daylight Saving Time, electricity savings generally occurred over a three- to five-hour period in the evening with small increases in usage during the early-morning hours. On a daily percentage basis, electricity savings were slightly greater during the March (spring) extension of Extended Daylight Saving Time than the November (fall) extension. On a regional basis, some southern portions of the United States exhibited slightly smaller impacts of Extended Daylight Saving Time on energy savings compared to the northern regions, a result possibly due to a small, offsetting increase in household air conditioning usage.
https://www1.eere.energy.gov/ba/pba/pdfs/edst_national_energy_consumption.pdf

A slight increase in energy usage in the morning was offset by a three- to five-hour period of electricity savings in the evening when DST was extended in 2007 according to the U.S Department of Energy.  Northern regions seemed to benefit more from the extended DST than southern regions; arguably because southern regions had offsetting increases in household air conditioning usage.  But what are the results if DST was extended even further into the winter months (ie. made permanent).  In January how many Florida residents are air conditioning their homes?  In Minneapolis, how much more energy does it take to heat their homes when the heat generating sun comes up an hour later?  Are any potential morning increases offset in the evenings when the sun stays out an hour later?

A big thing is peak energy usage. Year-wise, winter and summer are high usage areas, while spring and  fall are more moderate with lower daily peaks.
That is a significant factor for utilities as it should allow more downtime for powerplant maintenance.

Flatten the peak of daily usage- why does that sound familiar?

[DenverBrian]

Of the metropolitan areas in the United States with over 1 million people; Detroit, Grand Rapids, and Indianapolis are the only cities that see sunrises after 8AM during the winter.  Grand Rapids, Michigan is the most extreme example with sunrises as late as 8:13AM.  With permanent DST, sunrise would get pushed back to 9:13AM but that's about the worst case scenario for anyone living in a metropolitan area of over 1 million people.   

Both MI and IN could easily switch from year-round EDT to year-round CDT because they border the Central time zone. As always, it will depend on who kvetches the most: The "the poor schoolkids in the dark!" crowd, or the "I want to play golf until 9 PM in summer, dammit!" crowd.

[JayhawkCO]

Here's a fun tool to figure out if you should be in favor of abolishing DST, keeping it full time, or staying with the status quo.

My results:

[formulanone]

Well, now I feel even less weird for not caring about changing clocks.

[tradephoric]

Here's a fun tool to figure out if you should be in favor of abolishing DST, keeping it full time, or staying with the status quo.
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That is definitely a cool site.  Just a half hour shift from what reasonable sunrise/sunset times are from your selections (and selecting "sunset time is more important") and the entire map changes.  Highlights just how difficult it is to please everyone in this debate as people have a differing opinion of what they view as a reasonable sunrise/sunset.

[hotdogPi]

Shifting it half an hour did nothing. The reason it changed was because you chose sunset is more important – with the two selected times being 12 hours apart, it is impossible to satisfy both between the fall equinox and the spring equinox no matter what you choose.

Also, that map really should have had a different projection. They curved the map but not the grid squares.

[Scott5114]

Why won't it let me set it to 11 AM sunrises?

[webny99]

Here's a fun tool to figure out if you should be in favor of abolishing DST, keeping it full time, or staying with the status quo.

Interesting tool, but with a huge glaring issue: The only inputs are latest sunrise and earliest sunset, so the two most important things in the winter are weighted to 100% while the two most important things during the summer are weighted to 0%. It really needs a third and fourth input for earliest sunrise and latest sunset to be of any use.

[hbelkins]

Unsurprisingly, "always use DST" was my result.

My inputs: latest sunrise 8 a.m., earliest sunset 7:30 p.m., sunset is much more important.

[tradephoric]

Shifting it half an hour did nothing. The reason it changed was because you chose sunset is more important – with the two selected times being 12 hours apart, it is impossible to satisfy both between the fall equinox and the spring equinox no matter what you choose.

Also, that map really should have had a different projection. They curved the map but not the grid squares.

Shifting sunrise/sunset times back a half hour while maintaining JayhawkCO "Sunrise time is more important" selection - there is a lot less yellow.  There is definitely a change there.

[webny99]

Unsurprisingly, "always use DST" was my result.

My inputs: latest sunrise 8 a.m., earliest sunset 7:30 p.m., sunset is much more important.

Using those same times, but with sunrise being much more important (which it absolutely is relative to a 7:30 PM sunset), about 95% of the map flips to "make no change", with Alabama and Arizona being the main exceptions (those still show "always use DST"). 

That basically proves my point:

Interesting tool, but with a huge glaring issue: The only inputs are latest sunrise and earliest sunset, so the two most important things in the winter are weighted to 100% while the two most important things during the summer are weighted to 0%. It really needs a third and fourth input for earliest sunrise and latest sunset to be of any use.

7:30 PM is not a reasonable "earliest sunset time" as that would be a ludicrous during in the winter, so the tool really needs upper and lower bounds for it to tell you anything you didn't already know. 

[kkt]

Here's a fun tool to figure out if you should be in favor of abolishing DST, keeping it full time, or staying with the status quo.

My results:

That's a weird tool.  It allows you to ask for things that can't happen, for instance in Seattle you can ask for the latest sunrise to be 7 AM and the earliest sunset to be 5:30 PM, and there's no way for both of those things to happen in winter.  If you set sunrise time as the more important criteria it SHOULD just indicate standard time in winter and says nothing about should happen in summer.  Yet it sticks Seattle in the "abolish DST" group, when it could fit in the "keep switching between standard time and DST" equally well, and better if there were also a criteria for "earliest sunrise" no earlier than, say, 5 AM and a preference for later sunsets when they days are long enough.

[elsmere241]

Shifting it half an hour did nothing. The reason it changed was because you chose sunset is more important – with the two selected times being 12 hours apart, it is impossible to satisfy both between the fall equinox and the spring equinox no matter what you choose.

Also, that map really should have had a different projection. They curved the map but not the grid squares.

Shifting sunrise/sunset times back a half hour while maintaining JayhawkCO "Sunrise time is more important" selection - there is a lot less yellow.  There is definitely a change there.

That's about what I'd do if I could shift lines over.  Again, I don't know what to do with Kansas City.

[hotdogPi]

That's about what I'd do if I could shift lines over.  Again, I don't know what to do with Kansas City.

Without knowing what your map looks like, I would put it in the one on the west. Topeka and Lawrence probably want to be on Kansas City time, while there's nothing major on the Missouri side that would want to stay on Kansas City time except St. Joseph, which borders Kansas and wouldn't cause any problems.

[DTComposer]

Here's a fun tool to figure out if you should be in favor of abolishing DST, keeping it full time, or staying with the status quo.

Interesting tool, but with a huge glaring issue: The only inputs are latest sunrise and earliest sunset, so the two most important things in the winter are weighted to 100% while the two most important things during the summer are weighted to 0%. It really needs a third and fourth input for earliest sunrise and latest sunset to be of any use.

The text below the map on the site makes it clear the author is not neutral on the subject, and his choice of data points reinforces that.

[JayhawkCO]

Here's a fun tool to figure out if you should be in favor of abolishing DST, keeping it full time, or staying with the status quo.

Interesting tool, but with a huge glaring issue: The only inputs are latest sunrise and earliest sunset, so the two most important things in the winter are weighted to 100% while the two most important things during the summer are weighted to 0%. It really needs a third and fourth input for earliest sunrise and latest sunset to be of any use.

The text below the map on the site makes it clear the author is not neutral on the subject, and his choice of data points reinforces that.

Well, considering the summer/winter thing, I think people only reaaaalllly care about the daylight when it's shorter. I don't think anyone in Minnesota complains that they have sunlight at 9:00 PM in June. It makes more sense to try to accommodate people's concerns in the wintertime.

[webny99]

Here's a fun tool to figure out if you should be in favor of abolishing DST, keeping it full time, or staying with the status quo.

Interesting tool, but with a huge glaring issue: The only inputs are latest sunrise and earliest sunset, so the two most important things in the winter are weighted to 100% while the two most important things during the summer are weighted to 0%. It really needs a third and fourth input for earliest sunrise and latest sunset to be of any use.

The text below the map on the site makes it clear the author is not neutral on the subject, and his choice of data points reinforces that.

Well, considering the summer/winter thing, I think people only reaaaalllly care about the daylight when it's shorter. I don't think anyone in Minnesota complains that they have sunlight at 9:00 PM in June. It makes more sense to try to accommodate people's concerns in the wintertime.

OK, so then "no change" should not be an option. As kkt noted, right now it's factoring in summer preferences without having enough information to do so. "No change" and "abolish DST" are redundant if you're looking at winter only.