Georgia

[RoadWarrior56]

I have included a link to a section on the GDOT website that contains information on the future I-75 truck roadway north of Macon.  It includes a video of the concept.

https://0014203-gdot.hub.arcgis.com/

[architect77]

The only reason I can think of that it would be northbound would be to drive the truck traffic towards the airport.

I'll bet if they went and asked the owners of the properties where the lane has to temporarily move over into the center median of existing I-75 what they think the state should do: Go to all that trouble and staging and worker risk and tons of concrete and hours of more delay to current traffic just to avoid their properties or to sell for a nice price, move somewhere else, and avoid all of that extra hassle by letting the new lane stay outside existing 75.

I mean it's worth asking rather than just spend all that extra money and effort only to find out the owners would've gladly taken the money because they didn't care about the location anyway...It's loud because it's right beside a major freeway!

They are an odd DOT that seems so insular. I hate it.

I have never known many ROW negotiations to go terribly smoothly when state government is involved; but I guess it could have happened in this case with thousands of land owners. 

I mean, I would like to believe GDOT is saving the mainline of 75 for future widening/future transit/multi-modal of some sort. 

I don't think there are thousands of landowners who would be impacted at the spot where they plan to shift over to the median temporarily.

I think it would be interesting to let the property owners decide if they'll go back to the median and reconstruct 75.
i

[Georgia]

so you want GDOT to see if business owners will sell them their business cheaper compared to bridging over 75?  GDOT already gets enough grief(rightly so most of the time), I cant imagine this would be a popular move for them.   Condemning a lot of hotels and restaurants in that stretch just would not be popular so GDOT took the path of least resistance to get the project built faster because there would be litigation. 

[Tomahawkin]

Can GDOT Purchase the land that is occupied by Slum Hotels in DeKalb County Along IH 20? For interstate Expansion? Those hotels have been a serious eyesore in that area for 25+ years! Same with hotels on IH 285 in South Dekalb county....

[Tom958]

The only reason I can think of that it would be northbound would be to drive the truck traffic towards the airport.

It's because the trucks are loaded headed north and largely not headed south. And it's uphill northbound, though by a rather trivial amount.

[Avalanchez71]

Can GDOT Purchase the land that is occupied by Slum Hotels in DeKalb County Along IH 20? For interstate Expansion? Those hotels have been a serious eyesore in that area for 25+ years! Same with hotels on IH 285 in South Dekalb county....

You are opening up a can of worms that was closed out in the 70s. 

[architect77]

so you want GDOT to see if business owners will sell them their business cheaper compared to bridging over 75?  GDOT already gets enough grief(rightly so most of the time), I cant imagine this would be a popular move for them.   Condemning a lot of hotels and restaurants in that stretch just would not be popular so GDOT took the path of least resistance to get the project built faster because there would be litigation. 

As i

North Carolina buys out & demolishes hundreds if not thousands of properties as part of its continuous highway building efforts over the last 3 decades. It isn't unusual and people understand that the greater good comes before their individual property rights.

OK I went and watched the visualization again. It's not that big of a deal coming over to the center median because it really just a total rebuild of all lanes Northbound which is a good thing.

The best part of this is that trucks are going to be forced away from the general purpose lanes and that will benefit everyone.

It will be similar to the NJ Turnpike which n is 3 lanes for trucks (cars can also intermingle) and 3 lanes just cars separated by a concrete median wall in each direction.

[architect77]

The only reason I can think of that it would be northbound would be to drive the truck traffic towards the airport.

It's because the trucks are loaded headed north and largely not headed south. And it's uphill northbound, though by a rather trivial amount.

If the port at Savannah is filling up these trucks then I will agree with your assertion. And there's more of America to the North of Macon than South.

But Florida's almost 22 million people and counting keeps trucks heading South in large numbers.

Georgia is at the nexus of the Southeast, one of the most populous regions of the country with 55 million people.

And yet there are no alternates or redundancies for movement of people or freight and everyone is forced to use I-75 and I-85 and likely endure many hours of delay that strips companies' profits and pollutes the environment more than necessary.

"Get your head out of the sand" is the phrase that keeps coming to mind regarding GDOT.

[ran4sh]

people understand that the greater good comes before their individual property rights.

They do? It does? I'm not sure I agree with that.

[architect77]

people understand that the greater good comes before their individual property rights.

They do? It does? I'm not sure I agree with that.

That's a common sentiment here in Georgia unfortunately. Everyone enjoys the appreciation in value of their assets that's the result of Atlanta's world reputation and popularity, and then turn around and balk at the notion of giving anything back to the region "for the greater good" or adequate funding for the infrastructure to accommodate 7 million people and Southeast freight movement.

So, so many of Georgia's issues stem from this mindset, namely GDOT's neglect of spending money on maintenance in minority areas of the metro area. Driving through many parts of Dekalb County is like going back in time to 30 years ago. So many unreadable shoulder signs and shields. It' looks like no one from GDOT has assessed conditions in decades.

The same is true in Latino areas like in Chamblee and Doraville, where street signs and shields are so old that the designs are from the 1950s-1970s.

I-20 West lined with trash that's never picked up, even during a repaving project a few years ago, all comes from this mindset of only spending in the more affluent areas, as if the state is some kind of banana republic without any unity.

It's an ill-advised mindset because states are judged as a whole, and driver's from the West being greeted with an interstate full of trash gives the entire state a black eye and less respect. Most all other states have a uniform level of statewide highway maintenance and therefore it reflects on the state as a whole.

As a proud Georgian, you cannot be happy with a 10 mile backup of tractor trailers on I-85 Southbound every weekday as they wait to get on I-285, their only option to reach the rest of the Southeast West of us.

That is the reality of everyone in North Georgia not willing to give anything back despite all that the region has provided to them.

Georgia's has 200,000-300,000 more people than NC and is the largest state in land area East of the Mississippi. By just looking at the highway map, you'd never know it was the 8th most populous state in the country.

Clearly there is an aversion to building roads and on the Atlanta closeup, even some of the roads shown are in abysmal condition like Moreland Ave US23, which is the only major road for roughly a quarter of the metro area. No improvements like safe shoulder distances or even repaving have been done to that highway in decades. This is not normal or adequate for such a popular and growing major city.

NORTHGEORGIAMAP by Stephen Edwards, on Flickr

NCmap by Stephen Edwards, on Flickr

[ran4sh]

I think you have it backwards. I agree with your assertion that Georgians dismiss the concept of "greater good", but I disagree with the idea that N Carolinians accept that "greater good" concept. My experience is that we are not that different (and I have lived in both states).

[Plutonic Panda]

So then why is North Carolina able to build more freeways?

[Dirt Roads]

So then why is North Carolina able to build more freeways?

The mix of state government power is Raleigh/Wake vs Charlotte/Mecklenburg vs Eastern Carolina rural vs Western Carolina rural.  Sometimes, government swings urban versus rural, and sometimes government swings Eastern versus Western.  Both scenarios result in a significant portion of highway funds being allocated towards rural development.  Also, North Carolina ranks #13 highest in fuel excise taxes $0.3635 per gallon (but not so much more than Georgia #23 at $0.3220 per gallon).

I also think that North Carolina's population being spread out between more urban areas contributes to the need to develop rural highways.  Using 2019 data:

• Charlotte CSA 2,386,401
• Raleigh/Durham CSA 2,079,687
• Greensboro CSA 1,689,151
• Fayetteville CSA 854,826
• Asheville CSA 542,821
• Rocky Mount CSA 297,064
• Hickory MSA 369,711
• Wilmington MSA 297,533
• Rocky Mount/Wilson/Roanoke Rapids CSA 297,064
• Greenville MSA+Washington MSA 227,736
• New Bern/Morehead City CSA 193,757
• Virginia Beach/Norfolk CSA 138,917
• Goldsboro MSA 123,131 + Kinston MSA 55,949

• Atlanta CSA 6,820,138
• Savannah CSA 583,882
• Macon/Warner-Robbins CSA 415,405
• Augusta CSA 410,848
• Chattanooga/Dalton CSA 380,933
• Columbus CSA 263,087
• Valdosta MSA 147,292
• Albany MSA 146,726
• Brunswick MSA 118,779

Note that Kinston belongs to Greenville/Kinston/Washington CSA, but is geographically aligned with Goldsboro on the freeway system.

[ran4sh]

So then why is North Carolina able to build more freeways?

It should also be noted that that's only really true in the past 2 decades. Before NC's recent freeway construction, Georgia had more miles, and definitely more lane miles, of freeway. NC has nothing matching Georgia's "Freeing the Freeways" project from the 80s.

Also, North Carolina ranks #13 highest in fuel excise taxes $0.3635 per gallon (but not so much more than Georgia #23 at $0.3220 per gallon).

Georgia had a recent increase in its fuel tax. For a long time Georgia was known as the state with the lowest fuel taxes in the Southeast.

[sprjus4]

North Carolina had a large freeway building era in the 1990s and 2000s. It has slowed down to some extent since, but is still progressing more than most states can say. Still major urban projects ongoing with completing Beltways around Winston-Salem, Greensboro, Fayetteville, and Raleigh The previous couple decades focused on the southern part of Greensboro, all of Charlotte's, and the northern part of Raleigh.

For major long distance freeway corridors, the 70s and 90s was mainly US-64 and US-264 (connecting towards the Outer Banks, US-17, and Greenville) late 80s and early 90s was mainly I-40 to Wilmington and through Raleigh-Durham, and then the 90s and 2000s were I-73 and I-74 south of Winston-Salem and Greensboro, plus I-795.

My prediction is the 2020s will largely focus on completing I-42, then the 2030s and into 40s will be I-795 and I-87.

Major widening projects, the 90s was I-40/I-85 from Greensboro to Durham, 2010s was I-85 between Lexington and Charlotte, and the 2020s will be I-95 between Lumberton and I-40, and I-26 south of Asheville.

Obviously there are others, but those are ones that stand out.

[US 89]

Also, North Carolina ranks #13 highest in fuel excise taxes $0.3635 per gallon (but not so much more than Georgia #23 at $0.3220 per gallon).

Georgia had a recent increase in its fuel tax. For a long time Georgia was known as the state with the lowest fuel taxes in the Southeast.

Which would explain why, at many state line crossings (such as AL 46/GA 166, AL 9/GA 20, AL 117/GA 48), there is a gas station immediately on the Georgia side of the line. Naturally, Alabama is now the cheaper state to buy gas in.

[RoadPelican]

I do remember gas prices in Georgia being cheap and even close to South Carolina up until about 2015 or so.  I think that is when Georgia passed their gas tax increase.  When I travel from NC to South Florida to visit family, I stop for gas twice in SC and then I don't fill up again until the Space Coast area of Florida.  I use to fill up in St. Mary's, Georgia right before crossing the Florida border, but since 2015 I have found gas to be cheaper in Florida than Georgia.

[Ga293]

Which would explain why, at many state line crossings (such as AL 46/GA 166, AL 9/GA 20, AL 117/GA 48), there is a gas station immediately on the Georgia side of the line. Naturally, Alabama is now the cheaper state to buy gas in.

Gas prices, or other vices? Alabama still has no lottery, and quite a few counties recently started allowing alcohol sales/still limit them to inside the city limits of "wet" cities.

[DeaconG]

I do remember gas prices in Georgia being cheap and even close to South Carolina up until about 2015 or so.  I think that is when Georgia passed their gas tax increase.  When I travel from NC to South Florida to visit family, I stop for gas twice in SC and then I don't fill up again until the Space Coast area of Florida.  I use to fill up in St. Mary's, Georgia right before crossing the Florida border, but since 2015 I have found gas to be cheaper in Florida than Georgia.

Yep. I still remember my extended fam in Jackson County, FL drive to Donalsonville, GA to get their gas-18 miles away.

[roadman65]

What is up here preventing a right turn through the piece of road intended for it?

This ramp end at I-95 N Bound Exit 29 makes traffic pass through the intersection rather than bypass it with an easier merge.

[Rothman]

What is up here preventing a right turn through the piece of road intended for it?

This ramp end at I-95 N Bound Exit 29 makes traffic pass through the intersection rather than bypass it with an easier merge.

Must have been problematic somehow given traffic volumes at the merge.  Had to use the light to meter and a few pylons were a lot cheaper than ripping out pavement.

[jmacswimmer]

[img snipped]
What is up here preventing a right turn through the piece of road intended for it?

This ramp end at I-95 N Bound Exit 29 makes traffic pass through the intersection rather than bypass it with an easier merge.

Must have been problematic somehow given traffic volumes at the merge.  Had to use the light to meter and a few pylons were a lot cheaper than ripping out pavement.

If I had to guess, I'd say there was probably an issue with trucks coming off that now-closed ramp and instantly crossing both thru lanes to turn left into the Love's truck stop?  Having traffic turn right at the signal, while less convenient, is safer for traffic looking to immediately turn left.

(I took that ramp back in December - while heading up I-95 returning from Florida, I made a small detour to cross the Sidney Lanier Bridge - and I had to wait behind a line of trucks waiting to turn right at the bottom of the ramp.)

[tolbs17]

North Carolina had a large freeway building era in the 1990s and 2000s. It has slowed down to some extent since, but is still progressing more than most states can say. Still major urban projects ongoing with completing Beltways around Winston-Salem, Greensboro, Fayetteville, and Raleigh The previous couple decades focused on the southern part of Greensboro, all of Charlotte's, and the northern part of Raleigh.

For major long distance freeway corridors, the 70s and 90s was mainly US-64 and US-264 (connecting towards the Outer Banks, US-17, and Greenville) late 80s and early 90s was mainly I-40 to Wilmington and through Raleigh-Durham, and then the 90s and 2000s were I-73 and I-74 south of Winston-Salem and Greensboro, plus I-795.

My prediction is the 2020s will largely focus on completing I-42, then the 2030s and into 40s will be I-795 and I-87.

Major widening projects, the 90s was I-40/I-85 from Greensboro to Durham, 2010s was I-85 between Lexington and Charlotte, and the 2020s will be I-95 between Lumberton and I-40, and I-26 south of Asheville.

Obviously there are others, but those are ones that stand out.

And you got I-140, the Wilson bypass, Clayton bypass, and much more.

[architect77]

What is up here preventing a right turn through the piece of road intended for it?

This ramp end at I-95 N Bound Exit 29 makes traffic pass through the intersection rather than bypass it with an easier merge.

Must have been problematic somehow given traffic volumes at the merge.  Had to use the light to meter and a few pylons were a lot cheaper than ripping out pavement.

So then why is North Carolina able to build more freeways?

It should also be noted that that's only really true in the past 2 decades. Before NC's recent freeway construction, Georgia had more miles, and definitely more lane miles, of freeway. NC has nothing matching Georgia's "Freeing the Freeways" project from the 80s.

Also, North Carolina ranks #13 highest in fuel excise taxes $0.3635 per gallon (but not so much more than Georgia #23 at $0.3220 per gallon).

Georgia had a recent increase in its fuel tax. For a long time Georgia was known as the state with the lowest fuel taxes in the Southeast.

I moved here right at the completion of freeing the freeways and it was too fabulous for words.

But using statistics only doesn't tell the true story. As for official interstate miles Georgia did have more miles as the largest state East of the Mississippi.

And for lane miles, if metro Atlanta's 5 and 6 lane portions of the freeway system, which in fact are deceivingly less than you might think given that only the connector, I-85 North I-285 Top End and I-75 North are the only really wide sections....

are fully weighted in the lane mile category, then yes Georgia has plenty.

However anyone judging these lane miles today would reduce them by a percentage because as we all know one slowdown or fender bender will stop the flow of all the lanes, and thus there is a diminishing return on lanes after the first four.

They are less effective in moving vehicles than the same number of lanes miles on separate roads.

But the biggest point I want to make is the thousands and thousands of miles of 4-lane, divided highways in NC (its default ideal road design) that are NEAR INTERSTATE QUALITY.

If you account for those then NC will have double or triple the amount of partially-limited access highways, that in essence, move traffic like interstate highways.

I think that NC  must not raising gas tax right now as a gift during the pandemic despite their funds being at an all-time low.

It's hard to compare gas taxes even with the internet because of phrases like "excise" which in Georgia may go to the counties, while NCDOT gets all the money and does all the maintenance on over 80,000 miles miles of roads.

GDOT maintains 35,000-40,000 miles and the rest is up to inidividual municipalities and counties.

NC has been aggressively building new roads since the 80s when I-40 finally reached Raleigh and then to Wilmington.

NCDOT recently was awarded about 10 new interstates numbers as it upgrades the above mentioned "near interstate quality" divided highways to full interstate standards. Some include I-87, I-42, I-74, I-73, and then the many spurs like I-885, I-840.

[Dirt Roads]

But the biggest point I want to make is the thousands and thousands of miles of 4-lane, divided highways in NC (its default ideal road design) that are NEAR INTERSTATE QUALITY.

Indeed, but the highway system in and around Atlanta is significantly more complex than Charlotte and Raleigh (combined), and GDOT has made a lot of highway improvements in the Atlanta Metro over the same timeframe.  My argument against comparing Georgia to North Carolina is that one is Atlanta-centric and the other is fairly balanced Rural/Urban...  ...in pretty much every area of life.  My aunt lived in Stone Mountain on two occasions, and I have worked in Atlanta a fair amount.   Quite frankly, I love Atlanta but I wouldn't want to live there.