OceanGate Titan submersible vehicle and crew presumed lost near Titanic wreckage

[kphoger]

What annoys me about this story is you have people shelling out a quarter mil to do something that's solely to impress their billionaire friends; so they can win Instagram for a day.  And then we're expected to be all sad for them dying in the middle of their dick measuring contest?  Pass.

Only three of them were "tourists".

[triplemultiplex]

Whatever; they had some "guide", the dumbass owner, and some shit-ass silver spoon baby.  They're still doing it for the attention to impress other billionaires.  And that makes me not care about them at all.

[kalvado]

Reference, please.

Sorry, I'm just going off past conversations with my friend–which came up quite a bit following the 737 MAX investigation, especially considering he certifies Boeing craft.  I'm not in the industry myself.

Let me put is so - if your friend thinks that way, they are a part of industry problem. Looks like engineering mentality at many places (aviation industry in particular)  fell behind by decades in many aspects. 1e7 mtbf for a joystick?    Unconditional reliability was the name of the game  pre-WWII. Today, we are looking at building reliable systems out of unreliable components. Things like fault tolerance and redundancy are the name of the game.
Two examples:
1. Angle of attack gauge - one that triggered 737MAX crashes - has an mtbf of about 1e5 hours. In other words, average 737 has a total of 2 such failures over the service life. This is a critical failure, which disables one side of controls; other pilot has to take over.
2. Aircraft engines, which are very vital, have to be something like 40k hours MTBF for maximum overwater flight grade; I believe it is closer to 15-20k hours domestically. That is 10 in-flight shutdowns over aircraft service life for domestic 737...
Both of these are moderately annoying, but there is a fallback plan.

[kalvado]

Whatever; they had some "guide", the dumbass owner, and some shit-ass silver spoon baby.  They're still doing it for the attention to impress other billionaires.  And that makes me not care about them at all.

A better comparison, IMHO, is that there is a traffic fatality every 15 minutes and "malnutrition" death every hour in US. I believe "malnutrition" is a politically correct term for "starved to death" here.   

[kphoger]

What annoys me about this story is you have people shelling out a quarter mil to do something that's solely to impress their billionaire friends; so they can win Instagram for a day.  And then we're expected to be all sad for them dying in the middle of their dick measuring contest?  Pass.

Only three of them were "tourists".

Whatever; they had some "guide", the dumbass owner, and some shit-ass silver spoon baby.  They're still doing it for the attention to impress other billionaires.  And that makes me not care about them at all.

That "some guide" was an officer in the French Navy for more than two decades.  He was an expert in deep sea exploration, the recovery of sunken ships and aircraft, and the Titanic itself–appearing in more than one documentary about the latter.  He piloted the first expedition to recover artifacts from the wreckage of the Titanic, helped run a mission to 3D-map the wreckage, and all in all made 35 dives to the site.  He was no mere attention-seeking, Instagram-obsessed billionaire in a dick measuring contest, and his death is a tragic loss to the world of underwater exploration.

[Max Rockatansky]

How are people still thinking this far in that this was just the "billionaires only"  club killed on the Titan?

[kalvado]

How are people still thinking this far in that this was just the "billionaires only"  club killed on the Titan?

And how many believe that life is uncertain and take dessert first?
What are my chances to be killed in an accident during daily commute?  More than zero...

[triplemultiplex]

Yeah but the sub guy wouldn't have been on there if wasn't for those attention whoring billionaires.

[Max Rockatansky]

Last I checked the 19 year old himself (who by reports didn't want to be on the sub) wasn't a billionaire.  Unless you're assuming he was in line for inheritance or something?

[abefroman329]

Last I checked the 19 year old himself wasn't a billionaire.  Unless you're assuming he was in line for inheritance or something?

Even if he wasn't slated to inherit his father's fortune, he had opportunities most of us can only dream of (see, e.g. Tucker Carlson, heir to the Swanson TV dinner fortune, who didn't see a dime of that money, but managed to become a bajillionaire with little work nevertheless).

Which is where I'm torn; yeah, the kid would probably never have had to worry about money in his life, but there's a strong chance his dad was a shitty one.

[abefroman329]

Reference, please.

Sorry, I'm just going off past conversations with my friend–which came up quite a bit following the 737 MAX investigation, especially considering he certifies Boeing craft.  I'm not in the industry myself.

No need to apologize when the other party is being a condescending dick just for the sake of being one.

[kphoger]

Last I checked the 19 year old himself (who by reports didn't want to be on the sub) wasn't a billionaire.  Unless you're assuming he was in line for inheritance or something?

According to the mother, she and her husband were originally slated to go together, and not the son because he wasn't an adult.  But their plans ended up falling through due to the COVID-19 pandemic.  By the time the new schedule date came around, the son had turned 18 and pleaded to go with his dad, so they exchanged her ticket for his.

[kalvado]

Reference, please.

Sorry, I'm just going off past conversations with my friend–which came up quite a bit following the 737 MAX investigation, especially considering he certifies Boeing craft.  I'm not in the industry myself.

No need to apologize when the other party is being a condescending dick just for the sake of being one.

You misspelled "has some technical background"

[kphoger]

Reference, please.

Sorry, I'm just going off past conversations with my friend–which came up quite a bit following the 737 MAX investigation, especially considering he certifies Boeing craft.  I'm not in the industry myself.

No need to apologize when the other party is being a condescending dick just for the sake of being one.

You misspelled "has some technical background"

True that.  There's plenty of "being a condescending dick just for the sake of being one" on this forum.  Lord knows I'm guilty of it from time to time.  But, if I expected anyone on here to legitimately call me out from a technical standpoint in matters of aircraft and avionics, it would be you.

[kalvado]

Reference, please.

Sorry, I'm just going off past conversations with my friend–which came up quite a bit following the 737 MAX investigation, especially considering he certifies Boeing craft.  I'm not in the industry myself.

No need to apologize when the other party is being a condescending dick just for the sake of being one.

You misspelled "has some technical background"

True that.  There's plenty of "being a condescending dick just for the sake of being one" on this forum.  Lord knows I'm guilty of it from time to time.  But, if I expected anyone on here to legitimately call me out from a technical standpoint in matters of aircraft and avionics, it would be you.

Thanks. If we ever meet, I owe you a beer.   

[Max Rockatansky]

Last I checked the 19 year old himself (who by reports didn't want to be on the sub) wasn't a billionaire.  Unless you're assuming he was in line for inheritance or something?

According to the mother, she and her husband were originally slated to go together, and not the son because he wasn't an adult.  But their plans ended up falling through due to the COVID-19 pandemic.  By the time the new schedule date came around, the son had turned 18 and pleaded to go with his dad, so they exchanged her ticket for his.

Source?  I haven't seen that particular angle yet on the 19 year old yet. 

[Max Rockatansky]

Last I checked the 19 year old himself wasn't a billionaire.  Unless you're assuming he was in line for inheritance or something?

Even if he wasn't slated to inherit his father's fortune, he had opportunities most of us can only dream of (see, e.g. Tucker Carlson, heir to the Swanson TV dinner fortune, who didn't see a dime of that money, but managed to become a bajillionaire with little work nevertheless).

Which is where I'm torn; yeah, the kid would probably never have had to worry about money in his life, but there's a strong chance his dad was a shitty one.

The truth is that you really never know.  My family wasn't "rich"  growing up but my dad was still making over 200k in the early 1990s.  Pretty much everyone who knew our family would rub it in my face about how "lucky"  I was because my parents carried themselves like people at that income level. 

Thing was that nobody considered how horrible my dad was with money.  He spent every last cent he made on himself, my mom made the mistake in never questioning him.  When he died there was no inheritance to speak of. 

I even had to wait to start college after becoming an adult because I had to pay for it with my own funds or get a student loan.  Granted there is a substantial difference between 200k annually and billions of dollars in money/equity. 

[kphoger]

Last I checked the 19 year old himself (who by reports didn't want to be on the sub) wasn't a billionaire.  Unless you're assuming he was in line for inheritance or something?

According to the mother, she and her husband were originally slated to go together, and not the son because he wasn't an adult.  But their plans ended up falling through due to the COVID-19 pandemic.  By the time the new schedule date came around, the son had turned 18 and pleaded to go with his dad, so they exchanged her ticket for his.

Source?  I haven't seen that particular angle yet on the 19 year old yet. 

It just came out yesterday.  I heard it on NPR in the car.  The son wanted to set a Guinness world record for solving a Rubik's cube at the wreckage site.

Here are some links:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/christine-dawood-shahzada-suleman-titanic-b2364742.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66015851
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/26/world/christine-dawood-interview-titan-submersible-scli-intl/index.html
https://www.foxnews.com/world/teen-titanic-submarine-passenger-aimed-set-rubiks-cube-world-record-dive-mom-says

[abefroman329]

Granted there is a substantial difference between 200k annually and billions of dollars in money/equity.

Yes, and I cannot possibly overstate the fact that my ire is directed at billionaires. I have several friends who have a net worth of over 1 million and/or make several million dollars a year, because they're lawyers and salaries are way too high, and none of them made their money by forcing factory employees to piss in bottles.

One of them, I just assumed he was born with a silver spoon up his ass because his father was a lawyer and worked in the Nixon Administration, and he was from Palm Springs, and then I asked him why he didn't get braces until he was an adult, and he said "because we didn't have money for it when I was a kid."  Which was surprising, since I had the most middle-ass middle-class upbringing and my brother and I both got orthodontia when we were teenagers.

[kphoger]

Yes, and I cannot possibly overstate the fact that my ire is directed at billionaires. I have several friends who have a net worth of over 1 million and/or make several million dollars a year, because they're lawyers and salaries are way too high, and none of them made their money by forcing factory employees to piss in bottles.

As I said earlier, I've known someone whose net worth was around a billion dollars, and he didn't make his money that way either.

[Rothman]

Granted there is a substantial difference between 200k annually and billions of dollars in money/equity.

Yes, and I cannot possibly overstate the fact that my ire is directed at billionaires. I have several friends who have a net worth of over 1 million and/or make several million dollars a year, because they're lawyers and salaries are way too high, and none of them made their money by forcing factory employees to piss in bottles.

One of them, I just assumed he was born with a silver spoon up his ass because his father was a lawyer and worked in the Nixon Administration, and he was from Palm Springs, and then I asked him why he didn't get braces until he was an adult, and he said "because we didn't have money for it when I was a kid."  Which was surprising, since I had the most middle-ass middle-class upbringing and my brother and I both got orthodontia when we were teenagers.

Evidently, you haven't heard of paralegals or legal assistants or the myriad of support staff lawyers depend on...

[Scott5114]

In isolation, I don't think that there's necessarily anything wrong with using a video game controller for something that isn't a video game. After all, it's a bunch of buttons, switches, and joysticks in a familiar-enough arrangement that most people would be instantly comfortable with using it. If I wanted to, say, build a homemade drone to take aerial pictures, using a video game controller as a base would make more sense than trying to build a bespoke controller.

Again, making the comparison between undersea craft and aircraft:  would you board an airplane if you knew the pilot was using a video game controller to fly the plane?  The amount of work that goes into certifying an airplane–|kalvado|'s negativity aside–is done for a reason:  a critical failure while up in the air generally results in disaster.  Likewise, undersea craft.

I wouldn't, because like I said, that decision would indicate to me that other corners had been cut in the design and maintenance of the craft.

However, if it were something not quite as safety-critical, like, say, someone had a car with a keyless entry fob stopped working, so they rigged up an unused game controller as a replacement, I'd probably think that was pretty neat.

[abefroman329]

Granted there is a substantial difference between 200k annually and billions of dollars in money/equity.

Yes, and I cannot possibly overstate the fact that my ire is directed at billionaires. I have several friends who have a net worth of over 1 million and/or make several million dollars a year, because they're lawyers and salaries are way too high, and none of them made their money by forcing factory employees to piss in bottles.

One of them, I just assumed he was born with a silver spoon up his ass because his father was a lawyer and worked in the Nixon Administration, and he was from Palm Springs, and then I asked him why he didn't get braces until he was an adult, and he said "because we didn't have money for it when I was a kid."  Which was surprising, since I had the most middle-ass middle-class upbringing and my brother and I both got orthodontia when we were teenagers.

Evidently, you haven't heard of paralegals or legal assistants or the myriad of support staff lawyers depend on...

I was a paralegal for a decade. I'm not sure what this relates to, though.

[Rothman]

Granted there is a substantial difference between 200k annually and billions of dollars in money/equity.

Yes, and I cannot possibly overstate the fact that my ire is directed at billionaires. I have several friends who have a net worth of over 1 million and/or make several million dollars a year, because they're lawyers and salaries are way too high, and none of them made their money by forcing factory employees to piss in bottles.

One of them, I just assumed he was born with a silver spoon up his ass because his father was a lawyer and worked in the Nixon Administration, and he was from Palm Springs, and then I asked him why he didn't get braces until he was an adult, and he said "because we didn't have money for it when I was a kid."  Which was surprising, since I had the most middle-ass middle-class upbringing and my brother and I both got orthodontia when we were teenagers.

Evidently, you haven't heard of paralegals or legal assistants or the myriad of support staff lawyers depend on...

I was a paralegal for a decade. I'm not sure what this relates to, though.

Paralegals get treated poorly, similar to factory workers.

[abefroman329]

Granted there is a substantial difference between 200k annually and billions of dollars in money/equity.

Yes, and I cannot possibly overstate the fact that my ire is directed at billionaires. I have several friends who have a net worth of over 1 million and/or make several million dollars a year, because they're lawyers and salaries are way too high, and none of them made their money by forcing factory employees to piss in bottles.

One of them, I just assumed he was born with a silver spoon up his ass because his father was a lawyer and worked in the Nixon Administration, and he was from Palm Springs, and then I asked him why he didn't get braces until he was an adult, and he said "because we didn't have money for it when I was a kid."  Which was surprising, since I had the most middle-ass middle-class upbringing and my brother and I both got orthodontia when we were teenagers.

Evidently, you haven't heard of paralegals or legal assistants or the myriad of support staff lawyers depend on...

I was a paralegal for a decade. I'm not sure what this relates to, though.

Paralegals get treated poorly, similar to factory workers.

In terms of universal experiences, being "treated poorly" as a paralegal meant dealing with short tempers and having to cancel plans for a night on the town at the last minute because you're needed at work.  However, there was never a time where I had to worry about my own job security if I went to take a piss break.  And the firm I worked for that was the absolute worst in terms of work/life balance and general boundaries was the one where I was making about $110K/year, in 2008 dollars, so I wouldn't say I wasn't being adequately compensated.