Random climate discussion

[Poiponen13]

I could live in a city where +40C temperatures are regular.

[kphoger]

I could live in a city where +40C temperatures are regular.

Have you even been in weather above 35°C?  Ever?

[JayhawkCO]

Isn't that kind of the same thing as ducking under a tree for shade?

Maybe sort of.  On the other hand, your solution to bitter cold wasn't "get to where it's sunny".

Philadelphia?

[jgb191]

When I walk outside in the Midwest and it's 98° with 85% humidity, I immediately feel oppressed and want to get out of the heat as quickly as possible.

That's because it's never happened at least in our country's history:  98 degrees with 85% RH simultaneously.  Your numbers calculate to a Heat Index of 156 degrees.  At 98 degrees even with half of that RH percentage, the Heat Index would still come out to nearly 110 degrees, which is what I believe you probably meant.  Which again stresses that it's the dew point that indicates the total amount of moisture in the air.

Those living along the Gulf Coast (from Brownsville, TX to Naples, FL and all points in between) tend to handle moist air better than elsewhere in the country; a dew point of around 70 degrees is normal and tolerable in a state like Louisiana, while the same dew point would be considered very uncomfortable anywhere in the Northern Plains.

[JayhawkCO]

When I walk outside in the Midwest and it's 98° with 85% humidity, I immediately feel oppressed and want to get out of the heat as quickly as possible.

That's because it's never happened at least in our country's history:  98 degrees with 85% RH simultaneously.  Your numbers calculate to a Heat Index of 156 degrees.  At 98 degrees even with half of that RH percentage, the Heat Index would still come out to nearly 110 degrees, which is what I believe you probably meant.  Which again stresses that it's the dew point that indicates the total amount of moisture in the air.

Those living along the Gulf Coast (from Brownsville, TX to Naples, FL and all points in between) tend to handle moist air better than elsewhere in the country; a dew point of around 70 degrees is normal and tolerable in a state like Louisiana, while the same dew point would be considered very uncomfortable anywhere in the Northern Plains.

Correct. 98°/85% ~ Hot & Sticky.

Looks like the highest heat index in the U.S. was in Appleton, WI of all places, 101° with a 90° dew point. Heat index of 148°.

[J N Winkler]

There is no planning for heat; there is for cold.

Exactly, but not in the way you meant.  There is no need to plan for heat (except to bring water).  But there is a need to plan for cold, including wearing multiple layers of clothing, and buying specialized gear to protect you from the painful air.

Is it colder than you expected?  Not prepared for it?  Too bad!

Is it hotter than you expected?  Not prepared for it?  Just take your shirt off and find some shade.

I don't think the distinction is that simple.  Heat does potentially require a significant amount of advance planning in terms of maintaining electrolyte balance (not just taking water out with you).  As the climate warms up, it will increasingly become necessary to check whether it is safe to be outside at all.  Under a 2° C warming scenario, even Canada will see deadly wet-bulb heatwaves with a recurrence interval of less than 25 years.  A lot of concrete construction already occurs at night during the summer in order to avoid the heat.

[webny99]

When I walk outside in the Midwest and it's 98° with 85% humidity, I immediately feel oppressed and want to get out of the heat as quickly as possible.

That's because it's never happened at least in our country's history:  98 degrees with 85% RH simultaneously.  Your numbers calculate to a Heat Index of 156 degrees.  ...

Correct. 98°/85% ~ Hot & Sticky.

Looks like the highest heat index in the U.S. was in Appleton, WI of all places, 101° with a 90° dew point. Heat index of 148°.

Appleton doesn't surprise me, only because of its situation between Lake Winnebago, Green Bay, and Lake Michigan. Lakes have an underrated impact on humidity in general.

The Twin Cities area this summer had some of the most oppressive heat I've ever encountered, and that's coming from relatively humid upstate NY. It was so bad that even going on a short walk was physically draining and we are seriously considering avoiding summer and visiting in other times of year in the future. And guess what...? There are lakes everywhere in the Twin Cities area. You couldn't get away from them all if you tried.

[webny99]

Dress like fans going to a late season game at Lambeau Field.

I mean, that's basically the gist of what people are telling me:  Cold weather is just fine, as long as you put on so much stuff that you can no longer feel the weather.  Which is kind of a silly argument to me.

If Packers fans are anything like Bills fans, I think that means just the opposite of what you thought it meant   

[jgb191]

Looks like the highest heat index in the U.S. was in Appleton, WI of all places, 101° with a 90° dew point. Heat index of 148°.

Yeah that historic 1995 heat wave had that massive moisture blast in the western coast of the Lake Michigan area.  Appleton, WI indeed had registered a dew point of 90 degrees, which was well-documented considering its northerly location.  But I read somewhere that the highest dew point in the country's history is right where we expected it to be -- 92 degrees at New Orleans, LA.  And a location in Central Florida had the second highest dew point at 91 degrees; Appleton had the third-highest at 90 degrees.

Appleton doesn't surprise me, only because of its situation between Lake Winnebago, Green Bay, and Lake Michigan. Lakes have an underrated impact on humidity in general.

The Twin Cities area this summer had some of the most oppressive heat I've ever encountered, and that's coming from relatively humid upstate NY. It was so bad that even going on a short walk was physically draining and we are seriously considering avoiding summer and visiting in other times of year in the future. And guess what...? There are lakes everywhere in the Twin Cities area. You couldn't get away from them all if you tried.

I was in Minnesota this summer as well, and the conditions was a cakewalk (compared to back home) as it was in all my other summer visits to the state.

[kphoger]

I don't think the distinction is that simple.  Heat does potentially require a significant amount of advance planning in terms of maintaining electrolyte balance (not just taking water out with you).  As the climate warms up, it will increasingly become necessary to check whether it is safe to be outside at all.

YMMV.

I mow the lawn during the hottest part of the afternoon, to make sure the grass is as dry as possible when I mow.  I've always done it this way, since I was in fifth grade.  I drink a glass of water ahead of time, and one after I'm done.  If it's over about 98°F I might take a break to drink some water halfway through, but usually I don't even do that.  On summer Saturdays in high school, after lunch, I used to mow our lawn, then mow the neighbor's lawn, then go directly to the swimming pool for three hours–all without stopping for a drink in between, with temps around 100°F;  that was my normal Saturday routine all summer long.

When I've done my manual labor mission projects in desert Mexico, I haven't typically done anything other than stop in to hydrate once every couple of hours.  Now, I do usually take powdered Gatorade on those trips, so we can mix it into the Culligan-style water jug instead of drinking just plain water.  But the Mexicans who work alongside us scoff at it, preferring to drink only water, and they hydrate even less than I do–which, as I already mentioned, seems to be a lot less than most people (in this country, at least) I know.

[DriverDave]

I could live in a city where +40C temperatures are regular.

That's 120 degrees Farenheit, far too extreme. The most I'm willing to tolerate is 100 F for only a couple hours in the heat of the day. Low 90s in general is better than 20-30, but 100-120 all day is unbearable.

[JayhawkCO]

Isn't that kind of the same thing as ducking under a tree for shade?

Maybe sort of.  On the other hand, your solution to bitter cold wasn't "get to where it's sunny".

Philadelphia?

Sad no one appears to have gotten this joke.

[triplemultiplex]

Dress like fans going to a late season game at Lambeau Field.

I mean, that's basically the gist of what people are telling me:  Cold weather is just fine, as long as you put on so much stuff that you can no longer feel the weather.  Which is kind of a silly argument to me.

If Packers fans are anything like Bills fans, I think that means just the opposite of what you thought it meant   

Liquid jacket works great.

Isn't that kind of the same thing as ducking under a tree for shade?

Maybe sort of.  On the other hand, your solution to bitter cold wasn't "get to where it's sunny".

Philadelphia?

Sad no one appears to have gotten this joke.

Some people are too good for TV.

[Scott5114]

I could live in a city where +40C temperatures are regular.

Phoenix had temperatures as high as 47°C this summer.

In an average year, the city I live in now (Norman, Oklahoma) experiences temperatures of 38°C or greater about twelve times.

[hotdogPi]

"regular" = "occurs at regular intervals", so you know exactly when the heat waves are coming

[kphoger]

"regular" = "occurs at regular intervals", so you know exactly when the heat waves are coming

Seeing who posted it, I'm sure he has an opinion about exactly when those heat waves should come...

[Scott5114]

Days above 40°C in Norman this year...

Aug 2 - 40°C
Aug 3 - 40°C
Aug 11 - 41°C
Aug 19 - 40°C
Aug 20 - 41°C
Aug 25 - 40°C
Sep 5 - 40°C

Wanna trade me places, Poiponen?

[J N Winkler]

Seeing who posted it, I'm sure he has an opinion about exactly when those heat waves should come...

The comments we make and the questions we ask open a window into our own experiences.

Personally, I think 40° C (104° F) in Helsinki would be far more dangerous than it is in the parts of the US and Europe that see such temperatures regularly, not just in terms of direct effects like heat-related injuries, but also firefighting.  When Britain went above 100° F for the first time in its recorded history in the summer of 2022, the fire services were overstretched not just by grass fires but also by house fires with trigger mechanisms related to higher-than-normal ambient temperatures.  Many European countries have surprisingly weak appliance safety standards--for example, the Grenfell Tower fire has been blamed partly on Britain allowing plastic instead of metal backings for refrigerators.

Upthread, I suggested going to Seville in June to see what 40° C feels like.  This doesn't give the full picture since that temperature, while considered dangerous enough to justify issuance of official heat warnings, is a lot less out of the ordinary than it would be in Scandinavia.

[Poiponen13]

Seeing who posted it, I'm sure he has an opinion about exactly when those heat waves should come...

The comments we make and the questions we ask open a window into our own experiences.

Personally, I think 40° C (104° F) in Helsinki would be far more dangerous than it is in the parts of the US and Europe that see such temperatures regularly, not just in terms of direct effects like heat-related injuries, but also firefighting.  When Britain went above 100° F for the first time in its recorded history in the summer of 2022, the fire services were overstretched not just by grass fires but also by house fires with trigger mechanisms related to higher-than-normal ambient temperatures.  Many European countries have surprisingly weak appliance safety standards--for example, the Grenfell Tower fire has been blamed partly on Britain allowing plastic instead of metal backings for refrigerators.

Upthread, I suggested going to Seville in June to see what 40° C feels like.  This doesn't give the full picture since that temperature, while considered dangerous enough to justify issuance of official heat warnings, is a lot less out of the ordinary than it would be in Scandinavia.

The all-time record high of Helsinki is 33.2 °C (91.8 °F), and it was measured in July 2019, the previous high was 31.6 °C (88.9 °F). Helsinki is little cooler in summer than places further north in Finland, but in coming decades, temperatures could easily rise to 38 °C in Helsinki, and to 43 °C in futher north.

[kphoger]

The all-time record high of Helsinki is 33.2 °C (91.8 °F), and it was measured in July 2019, the previous high was 31.6 °C (88.9 °F). Helsinki is little cooler in summer than places further north in Finland, but in coming decades, temperatures could easily rise to 38 °C in Helsinki, and to 43 °C in futher north.

Have you even been in weather above 35°C?  Ever?  [/sizе]

[Poiponen13]

The all-time record high of Helsinki is 33.2 °C (91.8 °F), and it was measured in July 2019, the previous high was 31.6 °C (88.9 °F). Helsinki is little cooler in summer than places further north in Finland, but in coming decades, temperatures could easily rise to 38 °C in Helsinki, and to 43 °C in futher north.

Have you even been in weather above 35°C?  Ever?  [/sizе]

Probbaly in summer of 2010 in Finland. Then a temperature of 37.2 °C was measured.

[kphoger]

The all-time record high of Helsinki is 33.2 °C (91.8 °F), and it was measured in July 2019, the previous high was 31.6 °C (88.9 °F). Helsinki is little cooler in summer than places further north in Finland, but in coming decades, temperatures could easily rise to 38 °C in Helsinki, and to 43 °C in futher north.

Have you even been in weather above 35°C?  Ever?  [/sizе]

Probbaly in summer of 2010 in Finland. Then a temperature of 37.2 °C was measured.

[sizе=1em]Were you in Joensuu on [/sizе][sizе=2]July 29 of that year?[/sizе]

[Poiponen13]

The all-time record high of Helsinki is 33.2 °C (91.8 °F), and it was measured in July 2019, the previous high was 31.6 °C (88.9 °F). Helsinki is little cooler in summer than places further north in Finland, but in coming decades, temperatures could easily rise to 38 °C in Helsinki, and to 43 °C in futher north.

Have you even been in weather above 35°C?  Ever?  [/sizе]

Probbaly in summer of 2010 in Finland. Then a temperature of 37.2 °C was measured.

[sizе=1em]Were you in Joensuu on [/sizе][sizе=2]July 29 of that year?[/sizе]

No, but somewhat close. I don't want to tell further.

[kphoger]

No, but somewhat close. I don't want to tell further.

No problem.  No need to tell us where you were on July 29, 2010.  I mean, after all, if we had that information, then we might be able to track you down and sign you up for unwanted magazine subscriptions or something.

So just look up the high temperature for that date in whatever town you were in, and let us know how hot it got that day.  Here's a good website to use for that.  I can see from that site, for example, that it got up to 32.8°C in the city I was in that day.  And it got up to 33.7°C in Kuopio, Finland.

[Poiponen13]

My best climate would be a climate where there is at least some variation in temperature, but maybe not any frost or snow, and average high temperatures in warmest month would be around 30 C and average low temperatures in coolest month would be around 8 C. The west season (summer) and dry season (winter) would also be good, rather than uniform rainfall all year long. Or a semi-arid or desert climate.