New Minnesota Flag

[Scott5114]

But, because there's a sense of national identity tied to a national flag, state flags have naturally come to be associated with state pride, so they're now being seen as some sort of brand identity thing that they just never were when they were first drawn up.  Hence the calls to replace all the boring "seal on a bedsheet" flags with something more stylized and modern.  And then, ironically, they all come out looking rather boring in the end—just in a non-bedsheet sort of way.

It's more that state seals are kind of terrible for anyone that isn't the state government. Seals are supposed to be a thing that's embossed into a blob of wax as a means to prove that someone or some organization approved or was involved in a document's preparation. Thus it makes sense for them to be intricate and chock-full of symbology, because the more intricate a seal is, the more likely a forger is to fuck it up if they try duplicating it.

But when you're making a flag, or any other symbol to rally around, you don't want intricacy! Flags are supposed to be easy to copy, because you want someone fighting under that banner—the entire reason flags were invented in the first place—to be able to whip up a copy of that banner on the spur of the moment with no money and no Internet! You want your children to be able to draw the darn thing so they grow up with pride for the state! (I always hated drawing the Oklahoma flag as a kid, when we were assigned to do so in school. Even as a coloring page it was a bit too fiddly for me to enjoy. One time we had to draw random state flags for a geography project and I got assigned Maryland. I wasn't too happy about that.)

Hey, you should get your kids to draw the Kansas flag and see what the result is. I bet it'll be hilarious.

I think being made of simple (but distinct) elements is actually a good thing. Sure, it might be a little boring. But that means you can mix elements of it with other symbols and make an even more powerful combined symbol. For example:

the new MN flag if it was good

...if that was the logo of a trans support group in Minneapolis, it would be instantly clear who they served and what they did.

[Rothman]

You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy than the North American Vexillological Association.

[kphoger]

Flags are supposed to be easy to copy, because you want someone fighting under that banner—the entire reason flags were invented in the first place—to be able to whip up a copy of that banner on the spur of the moment with no money and no Internet!

Again, that's irrelevant to state flags.  To the extent that state armies ever fought under a flag, they did so under flags other than the regular state flag.  I challenge you to come up with a single example of any US state ever having fought a battle under a regular old state flag as the army's banner.  (Actually, that would be really interesting if you did.)

And even if it were true—and it isn't—that state militias used to fight battles under their respective state flags, it certainly isn't true anymore.  The Minnesota State Guard, for this specific example, hasn't been active for almost 80 years and, even if it were active, it's not like it would be waging war in the battlefield against North Dakota (which, by the way, doesn't even have a militia at all, unless you count the National Guard).

[Max Rockatansky]

Now you got me wondering about the Battle of Phillips Corner during the Toledo War.  The Ohio militia in theory could have been dragging a flag around.

[kphoger]

Now you got me wondering about the Battle of Phillips Corner during the Toledo War.  The Ohio militia in theory could have been dragging a flag around.

I think they probably would have fought under a modified Stars & Stripes.  While this quote doesn't mention the Toledo War specifically, it does mention wars both earlier and later:

Ohio has no legally authorized State flag.  The militia of the State in the Indian wars and in the war of 1812, and the Ohio troops in the national service during the war with Mexico and in the civil war, carried the stars and stripes.  The regimental colors differed from the ordinary flag in having a large eagle, with the number of the regiment and the prescribed number of stars above.

Letter, William H. Smith, Secretary of State, Dec. 29, 1866

[Scott5114]

Again, that's irrelevant to state flags.  To the extent that state armies ever fought under a flag, they did so under flags other than the regular state flag.  I challenge you to come up with a single example of any US state ever having fought a battle under a regular old state flag as the army's banner.  (Actually, that would be really interesting if you did.)

Why is whether state flags were ever used for that purpose relevant? They're still flags.

[hotdogPi]

I actually find the Maryland flag to be fine. It's memorable, and it's 880 bytes on Wikimedia Commons — more than some, but a lot less than anything with a seal.

[Scott5114]

I actually find the Maryland flag to be fine.

Your boss probably hasn't made you drawn the damn thing billowing in the wind.

[kphoger]

Why is whether state flags were ever used for that purpose relevant? They're still flags.

Because that has never been their purpose.  Form follows function.  Something that has never been and will never be used as a battle standard doesn't need to be held to the same design principles as a battle standard.

It's like demanding that, if a company flies a flag with their corporate logo outside their headquarters and retail locations, then that flag must be easily reproduceable and recognized on the battlefield—because, of course, they're still flags.

[Scott5114]

Why is whether state flags were ever used for that purpose relevant? They're still flags.

Because that has never been their purpose.  Form follows function.  Something that has never been and will never be used as a battle standard doesn't need to be held to the same design principles as a battle standard.

It's like demanding that, if a company flies a flag with their corporate logo outside their headquarters and retail locations, then that flag must be easily reproduceable and recognized on the battlefield—because, of course, they're still flags.

So it doesn't have to be recognizable, it doesn't have to be something people like enough to use as a symbol...

Pray tell, what do you think the point of state flags even is?

[kphoger]

Pray tell, what do you think the point of state flags even is?

To let you know that the building behind it is a state government office.

[Molandfreak]

One thing about having an easily-recognizable, simple state/regional flag that I like is that it isn't subject to a code of conduct. Of course the Flag Code is irrelevant nowadays, but theoretically you aren't supposed to morph it into a different shape or place any other seals or organizational emblems on top of it. The merchandise featuring the new Minnesota flag includes state symbols in the light blue area, so that is representative of the creativity which can coincide with simplicity.

[Max Rockatansky]

Why is whether state flags were ever used for that purpose relevant? They're still flags.

Because that has never been their purpose.  Form follows function.  Something that has never been and will never be used as a battle standard doesn't need to be held to the same design principles as a battle standard.

It's like demanding that, if a company flies a flag with their corporate logo outside their headquarters and retail locations, then that flag must be easily reproduceable and recognized on the battlefield—because, of course, they're still flags.

So it doesn't have to be recognizable, it doesn't have to be something people like enough to use as a symbol...

Pray tell, what do you think the point of state flags even is?

That is something I've often wondered myself.  Having state or city flags in modern times in the United States seems a little pointless to me.  The idea of American states being akin to something like an actual standalone fully independent nation is a pretty much long extinct idea (despite what Texans think). 

[PColumbus73]

... Then all state route shields should be the default circles.

[kphoger]

Pray tell, what do you think the point of state flags even is?

That is something I've often wondered myself.  Having state or city flags in modern times in the United States seems a little pointless to me.

In Mexico:

17 states (plus Mexico City) have no official state flag at all, so they typically just use the seal on a white background.

10 states have an official flag that's just the seal on a white background.  None of them were officially adopted before 2010.

1 state has an official flag that's the seal on a white background, plus — ooh! — a yellow border.

3 states have official flags of some other design, except two of them are still basically the seal on a plain background, but the background has two colors instead of one.  (One of them also slaps the state name on there.)  Only one of them eschews the seal altogether.

In real life, I'm not sure I've ever seen a state flag of any sort flying anywhere in Mexico.  I do own a white coffee mug with a Mexican town's municipal seal on it, but that's probably the closest I've seen.

[Molandfreak]

Why is whether state flags were ever used for that purpose relevant? They're still flags.

Because that has never been their purpose.  Form follows function.  Something that has never been and will never be used as a battle standard doesn't need to be held to the same design principles as a battle standard.

It's like demanding that, if a company flies a flag with their corporate logo outside their headquarters and retail locations, then that flag must be easily reproduceable and recognized on the battlefield—because, of course, they're still flags.

So it doesn't have to be recognizable, it doesn't have to be something people like enough to use as a symbol...

Pray tell, what do you think the point of state flags even is?

That is something I've often wondered myself.  Having state or city flags in modern times in the United States seems a little pointless to me.  The idea of American states being akin to something like an actual standalone fully independent nation is a pretty much long extinct idea (despite what Texans think).

Regional and local flags aren't uniquely American. Who said a flag determines sovereignty?

[kphoger]

... Then all state route shields should be the default circles.

Maybe, maybe not.  But I don't have anything against those states that do use the default circle.

[Scott5114]

Pray tell, what do you think the point of state flags even is?

To let you know that the building behind it is a state government office.

Doesn't the big sign out front that says "Nevada Department of Scorpion Disbursement" or whatever do that?

[vdeane]

That is something I've often wondered myself.  Having state or city flags in modern times in the United States seems a little pointless to me.  The idea of American states being akin to something like an actual standalone fully independent nation is a pretty much long extinct idea (despite what Texans think).

Meanwhile in Canada, many provinces have giant welcome monuments with flags instead of the simple welcome signs that we use.

[Max Rockatansky]

Why is whether state flags were ever used for that purpose relevant? They're still flags.

Because that has never been their purpose.  Form follows function.  Something that has never been and will never be used as a battle standard doesn't need to be held to the same design principles as a battle standard.

It's like demanding that, if a company flies a flag with their corporate logo outside their headquarters and retail locations, then that flag must be easily reproduceable and recognized on the battlefield—because, of course, they're still flags.

So it doesn't have to be recognizable, it doesn't have to be something people like enough to use as a symbol...

Pray tell, what do you think the point of state flags even is?

That is something I've often wondered myself.  Having state or city flags in modern times in the United States seems a little pointless to me.  The idea of American states being akin to something like an actual standalone fully independent nation is a pretty much long extinct idea (despite what Texans think).

Regional and local flags aren't uniquely American. Who said a flag determines sovereignty?

Tell me you haven't spent much time around Texans with telling me you haven't spent much time around Texans.

[Max Rockatansky]

... Then all state route shields should be the default circles.

Maybe, maybe not.  But I don't have anything against those states that do use the default circle.

The way I've always read it is that the FHWA would prefer the states use the default circle or something that closely approximates it.  It strikes me as saying subtly saying that unique state identity is bad.  Given the G26 Caltrans US Route shields were just nixed in favor of the M1-4 variant makes me think the FHWA is only getting more aggressive about uniformity.

[Max Rockatansky]

That is something I've often wondered myself.  Having state or city flags in modern times in the United States seems a little pointless to me.  The idea of American states being akin to something like an actual standalone fully independent nation is a pretty much long extinct idea (despite what Texans think).

Meanwhile in Canada, many provinces have giant welcome monuments with flags instead of the simple welcome signs that we use.

Yeah but I'd expect something like that from Canada given how British-centric it is.  Kyle's observations on Mexico are giving me the vibe that there is something similar afoot in the United States with flags. 

[kphoger]

Pray tell, what do you think the point of state flags even is?

To let you know that the building behind it is a state government office.

Doesn't the big sign out front that says "Nevada Department of Scorpion Disbursement" or whatever do that?

Yes.  But flags are quite noticeable.  They flap all around and shit.

No, wait, you're right.  State flags don't serve any purpose at all.  Government offices should just go with the Stars & Stripes and the county shield instead.

[Molandfreak]

Why is whether state flags were ever used for that purpose relevant? They're still flags.

Because that has never been their purpose.  Form follows function.  Something that has never been and will never be used as a battle standard doesn't need to be held to the same design principles as a battle standard.

It's like demanding that, if a company flies a flag with their corporate logo outside their headquarters and retail locations, then that flag must be easily reproduceable and recognized on the battlefield—because, of course, they're still flags.

So it doesn't have to be recognizable, it doesn't have to be something people like enough to use as a symbol...

Pray tell, what do you think the point of state flags even is?

That is something I've often wondered myself.  Having state or city flags in modern times in the United States seems a little pointless to me.  The idea of American states being akin to something like an actual standalone fully independent nation is a pretty much long extinct idea (despite what Texans think).

Regional and local flags aren't uniquely American. Who said a flag determines sovereignty?

Tell me you haven't spent much time around Texans with telling me you haven't spent much time around Texans.

Come on, just admit you had a bullshit take and that flags have nothing to do with sovereignty. They never did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Bornholm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Schleswig-Holstein

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Bavaria

[Max Rockatansky]

Why is whether state flags were ever used for that purpose relevant? They're still flags.

Because that has never been their purpose.  Form follows function.  Something that has never been and will never be used as a battle standard doesn't need to be held to the same design principles as a battle standard.

It's like demanding that, if a company flies a flag with their corporate logo outside their headquarters and retail locations, then that flag must be easily reproduceable and recognized on the battlefield—because, of course, they're still flags.

So it doesn't have to be recognizable, it doesn't have to be something people like enough to use as a symbol...

Pray tell, what do you think the point of state flags even is?

That is something I've often wondered myself.  Having state or city flags in modern times in the United States seems a little pointless to me.  The idea of American states being akin to something like an actual standalone fully independent nation is a pretty much long extinct idea (despite what Texans think).

Regional and local flags aren't uniquely American. Who said a flag determines sovereignty?

Tell me you haven't spent much time around Texans with telling me you haven't spent much time around Texans.

Come on, just admit you had a bullshit take and that flags have nothing to do with sovereignty. They never did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Bornholm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Schleswig-Holstein

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Bavaria

Says the person who revived this thread after two years and didn't really explain what their misgivings were.