Francis Scott Key Bridge (I-695) complete collapse after large ship hits it

[hotdogPi]

"Creative snipping" is an actual power that the governor of Wisconsin has.

Some might say the actor in the absurdly long death scene used creative snipping in mastering his craft. Or CS as Kenneth would say.

Is this like master of your domain?

[Beltway]

Gee, somebody creatively snipped.

Gee, somebody creatively blew groceries.

Leave the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles out of this.

We need to order up a case of Ipecac for a certain group of individuals.

[wanderer2575]

This thread makes me long for the judicious and mature debates with Crash_It.

[PColumbus73]

The Francis Scott Key Bridge is one of the world's most contentious topics, second only to peace in the Middle East

[kphoger]

Here is ... something ... that I ... deliberately ... alter the context of ... to be ... a ... passive-aggressive ... and ... obnoxious ... poster ...

This wastes people's time and ... forces ... you ... to quote everything that ... I write ... in ... ~50 lines of text ...

Apparently not.

[Max Rockatansky]

This thread makes me long for the judicious and mature debates with Crash_It.

Illinois is even flatter because of him.

[LilianaUwU]

I am not going to change my opinion

Then a forum is not the appropriate place for whatever it is you're trying to do.  A forum is a place for open discussion and debate.  If you're already committed to not changing your opinion, then what you really want is an echo chamber.

I agree and today I have in essence said that I am about done (if not done) posting about the Key Bridge here.
People can read any updates from me on my website article if they want.

Gee, somebody creatively snipped.

Gee, somebody creatively blew groceries.

im gonna blow a load

[kphoger]

I'm start using that self honorific title of "legacy steward."  It sounds fancy and vaguely important sounding on the surface level.

You should add it to your sig line.

[Beltway]

Here is ... something ... that I ... deliberately ... alter the context of ... to be ... a ... passive-aggressive ... and ... obnoxious ... poster ...

This wastes people's time and ... forces ... you ... to quote everything that ... I write ... in ... ~50 lines of text ...

Apparently not.

We have a CS poster here.

[Sapphuby]

This thread makes me wonder if certain threads haven't been closed solely due to the entertainment factor coming from it

[kphoger]

We have a CS poster here.

I prefer the title "CLS poster", which stands for Creative Legacy Steward.

Each creative tool that I employ
Is a bridge across the sands of time,
Never seeking only to annoy,
But to document in prose or rhyme
All the clefts and cracks of argument
That pervade this online forum swill.
So with steel resolve I pitch my tent
On the peak of this projecting hill
And, with drawing pen in hand unroll,
For to place atop a draftsman's board,
Heaven's gift to me, a gilded scroll,
Then prepare to wield my ink-tipped sword.
This wide canyon's name is Long Forgot,
And there is no span to cross the gap.
So I take my seat to plan and plot,
This essential viaduct to map.
Each sarcastic jab a girder long,
Far above the channel down below;
Every metaphor a pillar strong,
Lest some Panamax should deal a blow.
Let the record show, e'er the site's demise:
Monsieur Scott Kozel can't take a joke.
But the man himself we don't despise
And would gladly share with him a Coke.
Let the churn erupt, the mockery fly,
But this bridge remains above the sands.
Let the forum laugh in its reply,
For it matters not.  The capsule stands.
(to the tune of Little Green Shrub)

[kphoger]

We can also see the effect of severing a metropolitan freeway -- the traffic doesn't just go "poof" and go somewhere else -- people around Baltimore are constantly complaining about the major increased levels of traffic on I-95, I-895 and I-695 West and on surface roads.

I'll remember you said this the next time you say that the existing capacity (without the Key Bridge) under/around Baltimore Harbor is adequate.

Said it is no worse than the I-495 Maryland Beltway -- which they are doing nothing about.

You said the Key Bridge was not "essential", and that I-95 and I-895 are "handling the traffic".  I suppose there's some semantic technicality by which that means you don't think existing capacity on I-95 and I-895 is adequate to cover the loss of the Key Bridge, but a commonsense reading of your posts sure makes it seem like you do.

[vdeane]

The Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956 established the Interstate System to "serve national defense" and "connect principal metropolitan areas." Expansion, connectivity, and mobility were the core mandates, not subtraction. The FHWA still defines the program as supporting "construction, maintenance, and operations" of the national highway network.

Removing federally-aided segments like I-81 in Syracuse may reflect local priorities, but it's hard to square with the original federal intent. If strategic teardown now qualifies as program alignment, I'd welcome the citation showing how highway removal fulfills a program designed for expansion.

Federal aid has changed a lot over the years.  That particular program doesn't even exist anymore, and hasn't for decades.  All that's left of it is the ability to get reimbursed for 90% of project costs on chargeable interstates instead of the usual 80%, but interstate-specific funding no longer exists.  They compete at TIP/STIP time for NHPP etc. funds from a state's allocation the same as any other project eligible for federal aid.  And while "construction of new facilities on the NHS" is one of the eligible program activities, that is not the same as saying that capacity increases are fundamental part of the program and that things like the viaduct removal go against the program.  Rothman and I have explained, again and again, why your vision of the I-81 viaduct project was never going to happen.  That is not the same as advocacy.  I've voiced my own opinions on the project in the past, but it's quite frankly not something worth harping over.

I also remember you citing a $100 million figure for ER, but that appears to be outdated as well:

23 U.S.C. 125 authorizes $100 million annually for the ER Program. Congress has periodically provided additional funds for the ER Program through supplemental appropriations. MAP-21 eliminated the $100 million per State event cap.

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/specialfunding/

Now, whether Congress decides to muck around with the next highway bill or the Trump administration decides to throw it's weight around (don't you just love how the same people who say "don't tread on me" love to tread on everyone else? /s) is another matter.

I'm start using that self honorific title of "legacy steward."  It sounds fancy and vaguely important sounding on the surface level.

You should add it to your sig line.

That's a good idea, but I think I have a better one - the personal text.

[kphoger]

Mockery really about the only thing left if we aren't going to get actual news related posts about the Key Bridge.

Wait, come on now!  What started all of this recent discussion, after a brutal nine-day dearth of updates, was this breaking news about an unnamed commenter on Kozel's social media page.  I think I can speak for most of us in extending heartfelt thanks to him for not leaving us in the dark about this latest turn of events, and in expressing my hope that he will continue to keep us in the loop with any similar new developments.  This is the sort of news that we simply can't rely on the mainstream media outlets for.

[PColumbus73]

Rothman and I have explained, again and again, why your vision of the I-81 viaduct project was never going to happen.  That is not the same as advocacy.  I've voiced my own opinions on the project in the past, but it's quite frankly not something worth harping over.

I also remember you citing a $100 million figure for ER, but that appears to be outdated as well:

Not to mention that according to him, replacing the I-81 viaduct is as simple as rebuilding that one elevated structure as-is, regardless of how the standards have changed since the structure was originally built, and discarding all the associated on/off-ramps and tie-ins and peripheral work that would be needed. As indicated by him demanding a price just for the viaduct replacement.

[Beltway]

We have a CS poster here.

I prefer the title "CLS poster", which stands for Creative Legacy Steward.
Each creative tool that I employ
Is a bridge across the sands of time,
Never seeking only to annoy,
But to document in prose or rhyme
All the clefts and cracks of argument
That pervade this online forum swill.
So with steel resolve I pitch my tent
On the peak of this projecting hill
And, with drawing pen in hand unroll,
For to place atop a draftsman's board,
Heaven's gift to me, a gilded scroll,
Then prepare to wield my ink-tipped sword.
This wide canyon's name is Long Forgot,
And there is no span to cross the gap.
So I take my seat to plan and plot,
This essential viaduct to map.
Each sarcastic jab a girder long,
Far above the channel down below;
Every metaphor a pillar strong,
Lest some Panamax should deal a blow.
Let the record show, e'er the site's demise:
Monsieur Scott Kozel can't take a joke.
But the man himself we don't despise
And would gladly share with him a Coke.
Let the churn erupt, the mockery fly,
But this bridge remains above the sands.
Let the forum laugh in its reply,
For it matters not.  The capsule stands.
(to the tune of Little Green Shrub)

Why do you spend so much time on this forum basically posting nothingness?

Mr. Likes The Forum Way, Way Too Much
Posts: 32,965
Achilles' heels: sarcasm & snark & baloney

[kphoger]

Why do you spend so much time on this forum basically posting nothingness?

Mr. Likes The Forum Way, Way Too Much
Posts: 32,965
Achilles' heels: sarcasm & snark & baloney

I find it mildly annoying when people who know my real screen name address me with my badge, post count, and personal text.

[Beltway]

Federal aid has changed a lot over the years.  That particular program doesn't even exist anymore, and hasn't for decades.  All that's left of it is the ability to get reimbursed for 90% of project costs on chargeable interstates instead of the usual 80%, but interstate-specific funding no longer exists.  They compete at TIP/STIP time for NHPP etc. funds from a state's allocation the same as any other project eligible for federal aid.  And while "construction of new facilities on the NHS" is one of the eligible program activities, that is not the same as saying that capacity increases are fundamental part of the program and that things like the viaduct removal go against the program.  Rothman and I have explained, again and again, why your vision of the I-81 viaduct project was never going to happen.  That is not the same as advocacy.  I've voiced my own opinions on the project in the past, but it's quite frankly not something worth harping over.

"Explained again and again" isn't analysis -- it's repetition -- repetition is not proof. The claim that my putative vision for the I-81 viaduct was "never going to happen" rests on institutional shielding, not technical impossibility. The 0.9-mile viaduct is structurally distinct, symbolically loaded, and financially viable within NHPP eligibility.

Dismissing replacement or redecking as fantasy ignores precedent, policy flexibility, and the lived geography of Syracuse. What you call 'never' is actually 'never prioritized' -- a different diagnosis entirely. Rothman's commentary isn't a final ruling, and your framing substitutes rhetorical fatigue for forensic engagement.

This sets a terrible precedent for the whole country -- urbanists and radical environmentalist/transit (RE/T) groups that want to destroy urban freeways all over the country have been salivating for the 30 or so years over finding their first "demonstration project."

That's precisely why the I-81 viaduct matters. It's not just a local infrastructure decision -- it's a symbolic precedent. For decades, urbanist and transit advocacy groups have sought a "demonstration project" to legitimize freeway removal as national policy. Syracuse's viaduct, with its federal visibility, offers that opening. And once set, it threads through TIP logic, NEPA posture, and federal aid eligibility nationwide.

Key words: baloney, tommyrot, chunder, seppuku, dystopia

I also remember you citing a $100 million figure for ER, but that appears to be outdated as well:

23 U.S.C. 125 authorizes $100 million annually for the ER Program. Congress has periodically provided additional funds for the ER Program through supplemental appropriations. MAP-21 eliminated the $100 million per State event cap.

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/specialfunding/

While MAP-21 officially eliminated the $100 million per-State event cap, in practice, FHWA still applies it as a policy guideline unless Congress provides supplemental appropriations that override it.

So your basis is correct: the statutory cap is gone, but the $100 million ceiling still functions as a de facto limit unless additional funds are specifically authorized. It's a classic case of regulatory inertia -- the rule changed, but the behavior didn't fully shift.

[Max Rockatansky]

Mockery really about the only thing left if we aren't going to get actual news related posts about the Key Bridge.

Wait, come on now!  What started all of this recent discussion, after a brutal nine-day dearth of updates, was this breaking news about an unnamed commenter on Kozel's social media page.  I think I can speak for most of us in extending heartfelt thanks to him for not leaving us in the dark about this latest turn of events, and in expressing my hope that he will continue to keep us in the loop with any similar new developments.  This is the sort of news that we simply can't rely on the mainstream media outlets for.

Wasn't it a "shadowy commentator" on the actual Key Bridge project page?  A shadowy commentator with a clear agenda to make you feel happy feelings about the Key Bridge being replaced by another span and not a tunnel?  Wasn't it not a commentator from the deep state planting the seeds of social engineering? 

Open your eyes people, we are through the looking glass!

[Beltway]

Not to mention that according to him, replacing the I-81 viaduct is as simple as rebuilding that one elevated structure as-is, regardless of how the standards have changed since the structure was originally built, and discarding all the associated on/off-ramps and tie-ins and peripheral work that would be needed. As indicated by him demanding a price just for the viaduct replacement.

I will place the I-95 James River Bridge Restoration Project as equal if not more complicated in structure, size and ramp tie-ins.

Per VDOT:
The I-95 James River Bridge Restoration project in Richmond, VA focused on extending the life of the 1958-era, 4,185-foot bridge through comprehensive rehabilitation. The scope included deck repairs, latex-modified concrete overlay, and overnight replacement of prefabricated superstructure sections to minimize traffic disruption. Crucially, the project also involved major substructure rehabilitation, addressing aging piers and supports to ensure long-term structural integrity. VDOT's approach balanced preservation with operational continuity, maintaining six lanes of interstate traffic while restoring a vital crossing over the James River. The project reflects strategic stewardship of legacy infrastructure through phased, context-sensitive engineering.

[Beltway]

Wasn't it a "shadowy commentator" on the actual Key Bridge project page?  A shadowy commentator with a clear agenda to make you feel happy feelings about the Key Bridge being replaced by another span and not a tunnel?  Wasn't it not a commentator from the deep state planting the seeds of social engineering? 

Why don't they do what other agencies do, have a named project person, or something like Key Bridge Project, be the poster that answers questions?

Which of these types of guy can be found among the rank and file road geeks?

[PColumbus73]

Not to mention that according to him, replacing the I-81 viaduct is as simple as rebuilding that one elevated structure as-is, regardless of how the standards have changed since the structure was originally built, and discarding all the associated on/off-ramps and tie-ins and peripheral work that would be needed. As indicated by him demanding a price just for the viaduct replacement.

I will place the I-95 James River Bridge Restoration Project as equal if not more complicated in structure, size and ramp tie-ins.

Per VDOT:
The I-95 James River Bridge Restoration project in Richmond, VA focused on extending the life of the 1958-era, 4,185-foot bridge through comprehensive rehabilitation. The scope included deck repairs, latex-modified concrete overlay, and overnight replacement of prefabricated superstructure sections to minimize traffic disruption. Crucially, the project also involved major substructure rehabilitation, addressing aging piers and supports to ensure long-term structural integrity. VDOT's approach balanced preservation with operational continuity, maintaining six lanes of interstate traffic while restoring a vital crossing over the James River. The project reflects strategic stewardship of legacy infrastructure through phased, context-sensitive engineering.

I think a bridge over a river and a viaduct aren't 100% comparable.

You talk about being a guardian of stewardship of legacy infrastructure, yet the James River Bridge is also below modern interstate standards. Interesting how we're not bleating about a functionally obsolete bridge in Virginia's capital city.

If we are going to push for saving I-81, how can we save it when it, too, lacks modern geometry and shoulders. IF we wanted to save it AND bring it to modern standards AND keep the footprint, we'll be settling for another I-93 / Franconia Notch.

[Beltway]

I will place the I-95 James River Bridge Restoration Project as equal if not more complicated in structure, size and ramp tie-ins.

I think a bridge over a river and a viaduct aren't 100% comparable.

True indeed.

You talk about being a guardian of stewardship of legacy infrastructure, yet the James River Bridge is also below modern interstate standards. Interesting how we're not bleating about a functionally obsolete bridge in Virginia's capital city.

How is it functionally obsolete and below modern Interstate standards?

Grade, alignment and lane widths are to modern urban Interstate standards. Structure is fully adequate for the total AADT and truck AADT.

The 2-foot shoulders are not -- but this was a 1998-2002 project and if it was a 2025 project I would have think about the cost of widening a bridge of that type.

If we are going to push for saving I-81, how can we save it when it, too, lacks modern geometry and shoulders. IF we wanted to save it AND bring it to modern standards AND keep the footprint, we'll be settling for another I-93 / Franconia Notch.

This has been discussed before -- if for whatever reason it was proposed to fully rehab but not widen the I-95 JRB, then I would not suggest tearing it down. That is the whole point.

The closer example is the I-895 Canton Viaduct in Baltimore, as mentioned before. An 0.8 mile 4-lane viaduct with 2-foot shoulders, built 1957, replaced about 5 years ago with a 4-lane viaduct with 10-foot shoulders.

[PColumbus73]

You talk about being a guardian of stewardship of legacy infrastructure, yet the James River Bridge is also below modern interstate standards. Interesting how we're not bleating about a functionally obsolete bridge in Virginia's capital city.

How is it functionally obsolete and below modern Interstate standards?

The closer example is the I-895 Canton Viaduct in Baltimore, as mentioned before. An 0.8 mile 4-lane viaduct with 2-foot shoulders, built 1957, replaced about 5 years ago with a 4-lane viaduct with 10-foot shoulders.

[vdeane]

"Explained again and again" isn't analysis -- it's repetition -- repetition is not proof. The claim that my putative vision for the I-81 viaduct was "never going to happen" rests on institutional shielding, not technical impossibility. The 0.9-mile viaduct is structurally distinct, symbolically loaded, and financially viable within NHPP eligibility.

Dismissing replacement or redecking as fantasy ignores precedent, policy flexibility, and the lived geography of Syracuse. What you call 'never' is actually 'never prioritized' -- a different diagnosis entirely. Rothman's commentary isn't a final ruling, and your framing substitutes rhetorical fatigue for forensic engagement.

This sets a terrible precedent for the whole country -- urbanists and radical environmentalist/transit (RE/T) groups that want to destroy urban freeways all over the country have been salivating for the 30 or so years over finding their first "demonstration project."

That's precisely why the I-81 viaduct matters. It's not just a local infrastructure decision -- it's a symbolic precedent. For decades, urbanist and transit advocacy groups have sought a "demonstration project" to legitimize freeway removal as national policy. Syracuse's viaduct, with its federal visibility, offers that opening. And once set, it threads through TIP logic, NEPA posture, and federal aid eligibility nationwide.

You're not going to get much in the way of new discussion if you just keep repeating the same points over and over, as you tend to do.  I'm not sure why you think the I-81 viaduct is a separate structure from everything surrounding it, when simply looking at an aerial image reveals how it extends into most of the I-690 interchange (which is where a large number of the design deficiencies are - the speed limit is 45 there).  Nor am I sure how a structure that barely even has enough room to paint edge lines wouldn't need to be widened (12' shoulders, these are not).  You also need to consider that not only are we talking about both federal and state policies/standards, we're talking fiscal realities, local/state politics, and the context that upstate NY isn't exactly a growing part of the country.

But then, at the end of the post, it seems that we get down to the real reasons for your opinion, and it turns out it has nothing to do with transportation need at all, but is in fact an anti-urbanist political argument that we should cater to cars above all else and that other modes deserve just the scraps, if anything at all.  You don't care at all about the realities of I-81, I-690, or Syracuse, you just want to keep the road because you don't want the New Urbanists to cite the precedent to remove anything else!

As stupid as I find the "fuck cars" crowd, I find the "cars should reign supreme" crowd equally stupid.